Do you want a much faster Mac Pro - you 2009 owners?

[nanofrog]

There is no Apple philosophy other than "Make Money"

The real motive of any company that's successful. Others may have thought and done differently, but they're no longer around.

Anyway, I'm a 1,1 owner - ... and frankly I nor no one else even knows what a 64-bit EFI will do for me. The benefit is entirely unclear to me. I read most of the threads here about it and I still don't know. People I trust to comment (the minority here) often say there is none. So WTF? Why would 64-bit EFI be a sigh of Apple's responsibility or commitment? It seems a bit of a straw-man to me.

For performance, it's going to depend on the specifics. Some code will benefit, and may even require it, such as floating point calculation based applications, but in a general sense, it's the optimization to full 64bit that will help. For the most part however, not so much. I seriously doubt it will make iCal run notably faster for example.

But the concept EFI64 is a straw man, is incorrect, as TheStrudel mentions. I know you're aware of this from posts in other threads. The lack of future graphics cards will be important to some, especially for video/graphics pros I would think, and the ability to run future versions of OS X that will be solely 64bit. So SL may be the only dual Kernel version released.

No, systems shouldn't be expected to run for 8 years, but 5 isn't unreasonable, and is the standard expectation for server grade systems before either being retasked, or disposed of. As your system is only a 2006 model, you've got some time yet on the OS (before the inability to upgrade), but you're already there on the graphics cards it seems (as the newest nVidia's don't include EFI32, and the HD4870 may be the last ATI card to do so).

 

[Tesselator]

For the record, my statement is based upon the design of most  computers and devices, which is vertically integrated hardware and software - not something designed to be tinkered with. The Mac Pro is a concession to power users - not the best possible machine that can be made.

I ignore advertisements. I'm going on the basis of their industrial design, which has been consistent in ideology since the days of the original Macintosh in 1984.

And it's worth pointing out that  doesn't put a ton of stock in focus groups or what consumers supposedly want. They operate on more of a, "We'll tell you what you want" ideal. 's signature desktop computer is an iMac. You'd do well to remember that.

64-bit EFI is a compatibility issue for GPUs made by Nvidia, so that's not entirely a strawman argument. I believe you knew about that already. 64-bit EFI is also relevant in terms of the goal being to transition everything to 64-bit - kernel, OS, apps, EFI. They don't want everything like that tomorrow, but eventually. Maybe in 10.7 or 10.8.

I will agree that  has no responsibility to make their computers last for 8 years. It's not even good business sense for them to do so. Keep it in mind, kids.

OK, between you and Nano I take it back about EFI 64-bit being a complete straw-man. It still seems partially to be to me tho.

Also you're going to have to define "tinkered with" however. I think they are about the same relatively speaking as any other maker machine. If fact more tinkerable in some cases as some manufacturers will void your ass just for changing RAM.

So tinkerable?

Can changes video cards? - Yes.
Can change CPUs? - Yes. (difficult on 2009 Octads only)
Can change RAM? - Yes.
Can open the case easily (easy access)? - Yes.
Software designed for unconventional low-level control? - Yes.
Expansion Slots available to the end user? - Yes.
Parts available for end-user self repair? - Yes.
Technical documentation for repair and expansion is available? - Yes.​

So what's not tinkerable? There are less video card options. But isn't that a result of and not a plan of using EFI?

 

[TheStrudel]

Change settings in EFI? Not so much.
Overclock CPU? Well, a BIOS function, so not really. Software tools to a point.
Overclock RAM? No, see above.
Overclock Graphics card? Pretty much the same. You could boot into windows or DOS to do it, but...
Beefier PSU? No, they're all custom for the computer in question.
Passive coolers? Well, you can, say, put a new cooler on your northbridge. But it might bump into where your graphics card needs to be.

Tinkerable in the sense that you can hot-rod it. Really screw with the voltage settings and other fun stuff PC people do in BIOS. Arguably this is all a result of the use of EFI, but isn't EFI theoretically capable of all this and more, just not enabled in Macs?

I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that the enthusiast hardcore overclocking crowd is accustomed to a degree of tweaking that's simply not an option for us. Depending on your point of view, this is a good thing or a bad thing, but note that aside from adding RAM, the Mac Pro is the only  computer they really want you to user service (Powerbooks to a lesser extent).

Fair enough, a lot of that crowd build their own PCs anyway, so arguably it's irrelevant. I'm just saying that  likes iMac users more than us. We're whiny and always demanding the latest technology. And why not? We're tough to keep happy because we want tight integration, computers that just work but are speedy and expandable, and can we overclock them so we don't have to pay for the expensive CPUs?

's happy to sell us Mac Pros. But iMac users are easier to support. 's product lines are about all-encompassing black boxes, with only a few gun-metal gray boxes that we can keep cramming things into. Not everything. But enough to keep us on Macs. And hey, this way they don't have an issue with denying Applecare claims because we overclocked and blew our systems.

 

[hyram]

but you're already there on the graphics cards it seems (as the newest nVidia's don't include EFI32, and the HD4870 may be the last ATI card to do so).

Not so fast on this. I think this has been covered enough that you would know by now that the 4870 does NOT contain a EFI32 and EFI64 driver. Instead it carries a EBC driver that will work with both. This will be the mp1,1 and 2,1 saving grace for video cards. At least as long as AMD/ATI continues to do their mac drivers in EBC. The biggest issue with the 4890 is that has not released a version that can be dumped, polomo'd, and flashed into a pc version. If they ever did, I would expect that it would enjoy the same usage and coverage as the 4870 has without the injectors et. al.

 

[ungraphic]

So I've got a Mac Pro 1,1 from 2006 (bought in February 2007). It's 2.66ghz. That whole ZDnet overclocking utility works on my mac pro however, I'm sure the CPU temperatures go up (i havent overclocked in a long time, and no longer have the application installed).

Does anyone know what are good temperatures to keep the CPU at without reaching a dangerous area if I'm to overclock the system? With that said, is iStat Menus an ACCURATE application for keeping an eye on the temperatures?

 

[nanofrog]

Not so fast on this. I think this has been covered enough that you would know by now that the 4870 does NOT contain a EFI32 and EFI64 driver. Instead it carries a EBC driver that will work with both. This will be the mp1,1 and 2,1 saving grace for video cards. At least as long as AMD/ATI continues to do their mac drivers in EBC. The biggest issue with the 4890 is that has not released a version that can be dumped, polomo'd, and flashed into a pc version. If they ever did, I would expect that it would enjoy the same usage and coverage as the 4870 has without the injectors et. al.

Actually, that one had slipped my mind. It's been awhile since I went to the 4890 thread, as I had unsubscribed after a time.

 

[Tesselator]

Change settings in EFI? Not so much.
Overclock CPU? Well, a BIOS function, so not really. Software tools to a point.
Overclock RAM? No, see above.
Overclock Graphics card? Pretty much the same. You could boot into windows or DOS to do it, but...
Beefier PSU? No, they're all custom for the computer in question.
Passive coolers? Well, you can, say, put a new cooler on your northbridge. But it might bump into where your graphics card needs to be.

Tinkerable in the sense that you can hot-rod it. Really screw with the voltage settings and other fun stuff PC people do in BIOS. Arguably this is all a result of the use of EFI, but isn't EFI theoretically capable of all this and more, just not enabled in Macs?

So you mean Overclocking. OK, but that's the topic here. Right? Other than that the system is essentially the same. Some minor differences- mostly due to the case.

I'm just saying that  likes iMac users more than us.

Hmmm, I dunno. I think they like whoever gives them the most money and that ALL there is to it. Nothing else matters to them at all. Every decision is based on obtaining and keeping whatever customer base comes their way in the largest quantities. If Mac Pro users outnumbered iMac users 10 to 1 (opposite from now) then iMac users would be saying this instead of you - a MP user.



.

 

[nanofrog]

Hmmm, I dunno. I think they like whoever gives them the most money and that ALL there is to it. Nothing else matters to them at all. Every decision is based on obtaining and keeping whatever customer base comes their way in the largest quantities. If Mac Pro users outnumbered iMac users 10 to 1 (opposite from now) then iMac users would be saying this instead of you - a MP user..

Which means the portable device market is their favorite (iPhones & iPods).

 

[gugucom]

Anyway, I'm a 1,1 owner - and if you ask me they care (about money!). My MP 1,1 works fine with Snow Leopard and frankly I nor no one else even knows what a 64-bit EFI will do for me. The benefit is entirely unclear to me. I read most of the threads here about it and I still don't know. People I trust to comment (the minority here) often say there is none. So WTF? Why would 64-bit EFI be a sigh of Apple's responsibility or commitment? It seems a bit of a straw-man to me.

To me EFI32 is a real issue and I'm so tired of it I will shortly sell my MP1,1 although it just reached the lofty performance of 21.000 in multi core cinebench. Here is why:

I use both OS X and Vista64/Seven64 in native form on my Mac Pro and my uMBP. I found that I get the best of both worlds by running the two operating systems. My uMBP has EFI64 and as a result is much more flexible and a lot easier to use with 64bit Windows. For starters it can boot any install DVD on the market and this is why:

All the modern sytems tend to be distributed in .iso image file systems compliant with ISO9660 UDF 1.02. Apple's boot program in the EFI32 version does not handle file versions according to the ISO 9660 specification. The standard requires that a name for a file record should consist of the file name followed by the file version. File name and file version are to be separated by a semicolon. The Windows file system drivers issued since 2007 handles such versioned files but the EFI32 cannot. It will not find the Setupldr.bin/Bootmgr file when it meets versioned files. The booting stalls and the machine freezes.

There are some work arounds for extracting the .iso file from the distributed boot DVDs and re-write those DVDs in non versioned form. Check Jowie's blog here. For me it is a PITA I'm no longer willing to put up with.

This is by far the most serious issue I have with EFI32 but by no means the only one. I want my machine to be able to boot optical discs from all DVD and Blu-Ray formats in IDE or SATA regardless of what I just happen to have in the drive. Again EFI64 is designed to do this. It boots from modern SATA drives and happily muches stuff of DVD+R burned discs. EFI32 will not do that for you. I am a heavy user of 1080p video and I don't buy Steve Job's crap that we are supposed to be happy with 780p. So please don't tell me that I'm not supposed to like Blu-Ray.

Grafic cards choices are much more severely limited if you are on EFI32 than on EFI64. I like choice, so this is another reason to stay away from antiquated firmware. Apple knows that and obviously speculates that by denying MP1,1 and MP2,1 owners upgrades it will sell more machines. This I will not do. My next machine will have EFI64 but will again be a used machine.

The final nail in the coffin of EFI32 for me is Apple's decree that no EFI32 machine will be allowed to boot into K64. I'm convinced that very soon the highest performing apps will all be using K64. It went that way in Windows since 2007 and it will happen in OS X as well.

 

[Tesselator]

Hmmmm, OK, I guess it's not a straw-man at all then.

Vut-iz-eet you say in-Amaree-ku, "Oops"?

Which means the portable device market is their favorite (iPhones & iPods).

Probably. I haven't looked at the financial demographics.
Of course by 'number of uses', 'weight in dollars' is implied.

 

[TheStrudel]

If there's a lesson to be learned from the EFI debacle, it's that the first revision is to be avoided if at all possible.

Unfortunately, it usually isn't possible for a lot of people. C'est la vie.

 

[nanofrog]

Hmmmm, OK, I guess it's not a straw-man at all then.

gugucom's gone to an extreme amount of effort and aggravation for something that shouldn't have been an issue IMO. I certianly agree the only logical sense that lack of an EFI64 release for the '06 - '07 MP's, is to force upgrades to new machines.

I hope he finds an '08 that suits him at the right price. Apple doesn't deserve to profit from this. Not on server grade equipment that's only 3 y/o, anyway.

Of course by 'number of uses', 'weight in dollars' is implied.

I read your post as "Highest Profit Segment", so we were on the same page.

 

[Tesselator]

gugucom's gone to an extreme amount of effort and aggravation for something that shouldn't have been an issue IMO.

Damn! We're back to semi-straw-man again.

 

[nanofrog]

Damn! We're back to semi-straw-man again.

How so?

He had to hunt for a solution to solve a non-compliance issue with current ISO standards resulting from EFI32. EFI64 is fine with it.

Had that solution not been posted, he'd still be spinning his wheels, unless he figured it out himself. Not exactly an easy problem to locate.

It's supposed to be easy, afterall. "It just works" my @....

 

[Tesselator]

I wish you guys would make up my mind already.

 

[nanofrog]

I wish you guys would make up my mind already.

What? Are you some sort of plant life blowing in the wind?

It's easy... dump the '06, and get an '08. Then your good to go for awhile.

Or dump Apple all together, and buy/build.

 

[Tesselator]

What? Are you some sort of plant life blowing in the wind?

<gasp> I've been identified.

It's easy... dump the '06, and get an '08. Then your good to go for awhile.

Or dump Apple all together, and buy/build.

Sounds right. Or just stagnate for a year and see what happens. I want more cores than 8 and at least 4 GHz. I also wanna install over 100 GB of RAM.

 

[nanofrog]

<gasp> I've been identified.

Ah ha! I knew it! You're a Greenie.

Sounds right. Or just stagnate for a year and see what happens. I want more cores than 8 and at least 4 GHz. I also wanna install over 100 GB of RAM.

Unfortunately, I'd think you'd end up stagnating for well over a year or even two.

So locate that perfect '08, or build what you want.

 

[colecg]

Thought I'd post in this thread as well - for Tutor

I just posted this over in an older thread I was reading last night. Tutor, I'd like to hire you to provide (email or phone) consulting as I attempt to build a beast for myself. I'm great with shooting and editing, but tearing apart a mac...not so much.

I know you said it is pretty easy, but I don't have the luxury of time should I make mistakes, etc. Got more client work than I can handle right now and I have to stay focused.

If you would be interested in making some money with your mad skillz, let me know how we can go about making contact.

Nice work, btw, really impressive. And thanks to everyone else who contributes to these forums. Really helpful stuff.

 

[Dr.Pants]

Ah ha! I knew it! You're a Greenie.

I always had my suspicions...

 

[Tutor]

clean-up

Clean up

 

[colecg]

Thanks Tutor

You are a credit to your screen name. That is really kind of you. I will follow up.

Dumb question. How do I send you a private post? I looked around on your profile, etc, and it wasn't readily apparent. I must be missing something.

Thanks again

 

[Dr.Pants]

How do I send [Tutor] a private post?

Click on the username for the menu. Also, towards the right and top (below log out) there should be the link to your PM system.

 

[nanofrog]

You are a credit to your screen name. That is really kind of you. I will follow up.

Dumb question. How do I send you a private post? I looked around on your profile, etc, and it wasn't readily apparent. I must be missing something.

Thanks again

Look under Contact Info on the upper right (here).

 

[colecg]

thanks

Thanks for the help, guys!