Dropping Two X5680 6-core 3.33GHz in Mac Pro?

[MacVidCards]

Unless Apple adds the 6 Core and keeps ABSOLUTELY EVERY OTHER CHIP IN MAC PRO EXACTLY THE SAME, I don't think this will end up working.
We did a lot of chatting about putting an EFI64 firmware from 2008 machines into 1st Gens, but nobody ever actually did it.

Firmware for machine has code for all various chips on the board to work together. How could having firmware from different boards and chips possibly work?

Ideally you would find the "microcode enabling" part of firmware and pste it into existing 4,1 code. But guess what, I doubt Apple is going to have a nice, clearly delineated means to circumvent their "forced obsolescence" sales methods.

It would be incredibly cool if Apple routinely offered firmware updates to allow additional CPU choices. It would lend them a "hey, we want our buyers to be able to brag about having latest CPUs as they come out" rep. But they don't.

 

[nanofrog]

Unless Apple adds the 6 Core and keeps ABSOLUTELY EVERY OTHER CHIP IN MAC PRO EXACTLY THE SAME, I don't think this will end up working.

Yes, and this is what it's based on. The 2009 systems only need a microcode update to actually work with the newer parts (LGA1366 with B1 steppings in their respective boards; SP and DP).

It's possible Apple could change parts on the PCB, blowing the possibility out of the water, but it would add cost to the systems. Since Apple's all about margins, not giving users what they want (prefer to dictate what they think users need), I don't see this happening. It would have a negative affect on margins if the prices are kept the same (SP systems, as DP parts will differ a bit given the price structure), or force MSRP's to rise again. The first wouldn't make the stockholders happy, and the second would be the same for users.

The middle ground is to actually leave the boards alone.

 

[hyram]

Reading the last dozen post or so, it is clear that the whole lot of you don't know what you are talking about.

The only intelligent comment comes for the Rom:

Unless Apple adds the 6 Core and keeps ABSOLUTELY EVERY OTHER CHIP IN MAC PRO EXACTLY THE SAME, I don't think this will end up working.
We did a lot of chatting about putting an EFI64 firmware from 2008 machines into 1st Gens, but nobody ever actually did it.

Firmware for machine has code for all various chips on the board to work together. How could having firmware from different boards and chips possibly work?.

1) It is highly unlikely that you will be able to drop the 5,1 code into a 4,1 machine. For the reason stated by Rom.

2) It takes more than just the microcode to make the firmware function correctly. There is a massive amount of setup involving various MSR's that need to be set correctly for the processor involved. Several of these MSR's are undocumented. Try beating you head on that for a while.

3) It is generally not possible to get the restoration disk from one MP to load on another. I've tried... you'll get an error saying that this update does not match this machine. It might be possible to mod the update procedure to fake it out, but then you left with 1).

4) Let's say you do manage to get a different version of the firmware to load, what's your backup strategy when it does not work? How do you get back to a working machine? Apple does seem to have some sort of recovery method (restoration disks) but it’s twitchy at best. Again, I’ve tried.

5) EFI is difficult to modify. It's not like old fashion BIOS where you can tweak a byte or two (or bunch) and have it work. There are very few tables that store system parameters, rather EFI builds everything from scratch each time you reset you machine. The majority of the code is written in C, which means just to get to the some point to try something you have to disassemble the code and then try to back out the meaning from the high-level C. While not impossible, it's not easy.

This is not to say that dropping hexacores into a 4,1 is impossible, just very very difficult. If after reading all this you still want to give it a go, PM me and I’ll show you how to get started. But be prepared for a very long slog that will be educational, but might not be fruitful.

 

[Roman23]

That would be me.

I am interested in this.. as again, I feel this is really considered an upgrade for the 2009's and not for a whole new box.

Reading the last dozen post or so, it is clear that the whole lot of you don't know what you are talking about.

The only intelligent comment comes for the Rom:



1) It is highly unlikely that you will be able to drop the 5,1 code into a 4,1 machine. For the reason stated by Rom.

2) It takes more than just the microcode to make the firmware function correctly. There is a massive amount of setup involving various MSR's that need to be set correctly for the processor involved. Several of these MSR's are undocumented. Try beating you head on that for a while.

3) It is generally not possible to get the restoration disk from one MP to load on another. I've tried... you'll get an error saying that this update does not match this machine. It might be possible to mod the update procedure to fake it out, but then you left with 1).

4) Let's say you do manage to get a different version of the firmware to load, what's your backup strategy when it does not work? How do you get back to a working machine? Apple does seem to have some sort of recovery method (restoration disks) but it’s twitchy at best. Again, I’ve tried.

5) EFI is difficult to modify. It's not like old fashion BIOS where you can tweak a byte or two (or bunch) and have it work. There are very few tables that store system parameters, rather EFI builds everything from scratch each time you reset you machine. The majority of the code is written in C, which means just to get to the some point to try something you have to disassemble the code and then try to back out the meaning from the high-level C. While not impossible, it's not easy.

This is not to say that dropping hexacores into a 4,1 is impossible, just very very difficult. If after reading all this you still want to give it a go, PM me and I’ll show you how to get started. But be prepared for a very long slog that will be educational, but might not be fruitful.

 

[xper]

Have i missed something now or are you guys sure that there is no possibility to put in 2 x5680 in a 2010 MP? That would mean that its not the x5680 that sits in the 6 core config.

I remember a thread a while back when the Nehalem was pretty new and Intel released a new CPU and Apple did not update the Mac Pro directly, then someone bought the new CPU and put it into the MP without any problem, why would the 2010 MP not be the same?

 

[Umbongo]

Have i missed something now or are you guys sure that there is no possibility to put in 2 x5680 in a 2010 MP? That would mean that its not the x5680 that sits in the 6 core config.

I remember a thread a while back when the Nehalem was pretty new and Intel released a new CPU and Apple did not update the Mac Pro directly, then someone bought the new CPU and put it into the MP without any problem, why would the 2010 MP not be the same?

No one has said the X5680 can't go in the 2010 Mac Pro. It should work fine. This was about the 2009 Mac Pros. Also the processor in the 6 core model is a W3680.

 

[ListedFirst.com]

Ready to be the lab rat

I've got a 6-core CPU, and a 2009. I've made a 1.9 restore CD and a modified 1.9 restore cd, but I cannot get my Mac to enter EFI recovery mode. Any tips on how to force flash the blasted EFI 1.5? If anyone here can tell me how, I'm game for trying it out!

Reading the last dozen post or so, it is clear that the whole lot of you don't know what you are talking about.

The only intelligent comment comes for the Rom:



1) It is highly unlikely that you will be able to drop the 5,1 code into a 4,1 machine. For the reason stated by Rom.

2) It takes more than just the microcode to make the firmware function correctly. There is a massive amount of setup involving various MSR's that need to be set correctly for the processor involved. Several of these MSR's are undocumented. Try beating you head on that for a while.

3) It is generally not possible to get the restoration disk from one MP to load on another. I've tried... you'll get an error saying that this update does not match this machine. It might be possible to mod the update procedure to fake it out, but then you left with 1).

4) Let's say you do manage to get a different version of the firmware to load, what's your backup strategy when it does not work? How do you get back to a working machine? Apple does seem to have some sort of recovery method (restoration disks) but it’s twitchy at best. Again, I’ve tried.

5) EFI is difficult to modify. It's not like old fashion BIOS where you can tweak a byte or two (or bunch) and have it work. There are very few tables that store system parameters, rather EFI builds everything from scratch each time you reset you machine. The majority of the code is written in C, which means just to get to the some point to try something you have to disassemble the code and then try to back out the meaning from the high-level C. While not impossible, it's not easy.

This is not to say that dropping hexacores into a 4,1 is impossible, just very very difficult. If after reading all this you still want to give it a go, PM me and I’ll show you how to get started. But be prepared for a very long slog that will be educational, but might not be fruitful.

 

[raysmd]

No one has said the X5680 can't go in the 2010 Mac Pro. It should work fine. This was about the 2009 Mac Pros. Also the processor in the 6 core model is a W3680.

You can use the W3680 in a single processor system only. To use in a dual processor system then you need the X5680

 

[Transporteur]

You can use the W3680 in a single processor system only. To use in a dual processor system then you need the X5680

I think that Umbongo is well aware of that!
If you read his post (including the quote) again, you will realise that he was only referring to the statement about the X5680 in the SP version.

 

[nanofrog]

I think that Umbongo is well aware of that!
If you read his post (including the quote) again, you will realise that he was only referring to the statement about the X5680 in the SP version.

That's what I got out of it as well.

DP CPU parts (55xx/56xx parts) will work in SP boards. The reverse however is not possible (35xx/36xx SP CPU in a DP system board = won't work).

 

[borgo1971]

So, definitely, on my MacPro 4,1 born with one Xeon W3520 (4 core @2,66/2,93GHz) can I replace the CPU with a Xeon X5650 (6 core @2,66/3,06GHz), that I can get for few money?
I read about stepping issues, and in effects Xeon W3520 is D0 while X5650 is B1. But even Xeon W3680 are B1, and so far I know, they work flawless in MacPro as my (but I can't get one for a reasonable price).
But X5650 specs have some other differences vs W3520 and W3680:
http://ark.intel.com/products/39718/Intel-Xeon-Processor-W3520-8M-Cache-2_66-GHz-4_80-GTs-Intel-QPI
http://ark.intel.com/products/47922/Intel-Xeon-Processor-X5650-12M-Cache-2_66-GHz-6_40-GTs-Intel-QPI
http://ark.intel.com/products/47917/Intel-Xeon-Processor-W3680-12M-Cache-3_33-GHz-6_40-GTs-Intel-QPI

 

[xcodeSyn]

So, definitely, on my MacPro 4,1 born with one Xeon W3520 (4 core @2,66/2,93GHz) can I replace the CPU with a Xeon X5650 (6 core @2,66/3,06GHz), that I can get for few money?

Remember this thread started before the 2010 MP 5,1 came out and now you need to flash the firmware from 4,1 to 5,1 before you can install any 56xx/36xx series processor on your 2009 MP model. The firmware upgrade utility is available and discussed here. You need to register before you can see it and download from the first post's attachment. Yes you can use an X5650 instead of the more powerful W3670/80/90, but these 56xx processors aren't as powerful as the 36xx single processors. That's why they were designed to work in pairs.

 

[flowrider]

^^^^Actually not quite true. The dual CPU 5XXX series of processors are every bit as powerful as their single CPu counterparts GHz to GHz. But, as you say, they are designed to work in pairs (tandem) and therefore double the processing power. And because of the working in tandem feature the Dual CPU chips themselves carry a much higher price than their Single CPU equivalent.

Example (Intel's list price @ introduction):

W3580 - $999.00
W5590 - $1600.00
W3680 - $999.00
X5680 - $1666.00

So, definitely, on my MacPro 4,1 born with one Xeon W3520 (4 core @2,66/2,93GHz) can I replace the CPU with a Xeon X5650 (6 core @2,66/3,06GHz), that I can get for few money?

No, since the 5 series CPUs are designed for Dual CPU operation, and you Mac Pro has a Single CPU try, you would need to replace the CPU with a 3 series Xeon Processor. The 3 series processors are designed to work in a Single CPU environment. And, if you went with a Hex Core CPU, you would, as stated above, need to flash your 4,1 machine to a 5,1 firmware configuration. The X5650, you mention, is rated at 2.66GHz, the slowest speed Hex Core Single CPU, the W3670, is rated @ 3.2GHz.

Lou

 

[borgo1971]

My MacPro is a 5,1 site today morning
All went from fact I probably can get an X5650 for few money. I know it isn't so fast as W3670/3680/3690, but even faster then my 4 core W3520. If someone knows where to grab a functional W3670/3680/3690 for few bucks, I would be grateful if he would tell me.

 

[flowrider]

^^^^Don't know where you are, but here's a W3680 from Hong Kong:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Xeon-...sor-/350869941943?pt=CPUs&hash=item51b17a6eb7

Lou

 

[xcodeSyn]

No, since the 5 series CPUs are designed for Dual CPU operation, and you Mac Pro has a Single CPU try, you would need to replace the CPU with a 3 series Xeon Processor.

I beg to differ. I have actually put an X5570 (actually two in separate occasions) in a single-processor 4,1 MP for testing before installing them in another dual-processor MP. You definitely cannot put two 35xx/36xx series processors in a DP machine, but you CAN install one 55xx/56xx series processor in a single-processor MP. Dell and HP servers/workstations are often sold with one processor installed in a DP setting, with the option to add another one in the future but many never need the second one before their retirement. It won't provide the maximum benefit but it's still good enough for some users.

I probably can get an X5650 for few money. I know it isn't so fast as W3670/3680/3690, but even faster then my 4 core W3520.

Yes the X5650 is definitely faster than the W3520, and has a lower TDP. If the price is attractive to you, then it's all good with the 5,1 upgrade.

 

[flowrider]

^^^^I have never tried it myself, but from all of my research, my understanding was that the 5XXX series of Intel processors would only work in a Dual CPU configuration. If your experience proves otherwise, I certainly bow to that. Thank You for clarifying.

Lou

 

[nanofrog]

^^^^I have never tried it myself, but from all of my research, my understanding was that the 5XXX series of Intel processors would only work in a Dual CPU configuration. If your experience proves otherwise, I certainly bow to that. Thank You for clarifying.

Lou

DP CPU series in this family can work in either a DP or SP board (has the ability to shut down the unused QPI lanes). The reverse is not possible (since the additional lanes necessary for the CPU - CPU communications for DP operation don't exist), which is why SP chips will not work in a DP board.

 

[adr1974]

DP CPU series in this family can work in either a DP or SP board (has the ability to shut down the unused QPI lanes). The reverse is not possible (since the additional lanes necessary for the CPU - CPU communications for DP operation don't exist), which is why SP chips will not work in a DP board.

Nanofrog -- are you aware of any way to get a single X56-- in a DP tray without having the fans runs at full tilt?

 

[nanofrog]

Nanofrog -- are you aware of any way to get a single X56-- in a DP tray without having the fans runs at full tilt?

IIRC, there's a separate thermal sensor that fits into a hole in the heatsink assembly, and that's what controls the fan speed (feedback loop). So when one is missing, the fans run at full speed.

Not sure if something like Fan Control will be able to override that condition or not, but worth a shot if you're already experimenting.

 

[flowrider]

And, IIRC, only one CPU will work if that CPU is in the CPU A socket, left side back. If installed in CPU B socket, there is no start-up.

Lou