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patrick0brien

macrumors 68040
Oct 24, 2002
3,246
9
The West Loop
Clix Pix said:
In some instances, the consumer may not really understand the differences between certain lenses and only be looking at tele length or zoom range instead of the glass. Many consumers are happy with say, the fairly inexpensive 70-300 lens, not realizing that the glass on it in no way compares to the much more costly 70-200mm VR with an F/2.8 aperture.
-Clix Pix

Let's also remember that the big boys have physically larger lensglass as well - which minimizes aberrations. I have the 70-300 (G), and I happened to get lucky that the glass is damn good on this one and I've observed little softness at the 300mm extreme and haven't seen any chromatic aberration (which leads me to think that I'm nuts)

Clix Pix said:
Oh, yeah, and I forgot to specify that it would be an f/1.4 lens...

... speaking of nuts...

;) :D
 

madmonk

macrumors newbie
Dec 9, 2004
16
0
-hh said:
Since I'm on the Canon EF/EF-S mount, I'm not familar with Nikon's land camera mounts: is the VR similar to the EF-S in that its only for APS frame dSLRs?

VR is not a type of mount. It stands for Vibration Reduction (same as IS for Canon I assume)
 

-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
madmonk said:
VR is not a type of mount. It stands for Vibration Reduction (same as IS for Canon I assume)

Ah, that's right... VR = IS. Thanks.

I was trying to remember the Nikon nomenclature equivalents of Canon's EF (35mm) and EF-S (digital) lens mounts.


It would appear that what I was looking for might be D and DX? It seems to be a topic of confusion...or as per B&H, a topic of frustration!

Egads, there's even an IX (APS film), as well as all of the "ai" lexicon. Makes me kind of feel lucky that I didn't pick Nikon when I was making a clean start with my land camera system around ten years ago.


-hh

Clix Pix said:
(VR?)
No. It's available on full-frame 35mm lenses such as the 80-400 VR, the 70-200 VR and others. Thank goodness!

Understood...I was getting VR (Canon IS) nomenclature crossed with lens mount.

(Weight vs Cost)
This is very true, that cost will be a more daunting factor for many consumers, and those who are primarily hobbyists may not want to make the investment in good glass.

Or more importantly, the hobbyist's spouse may be the veto!

I'm still having trouble convincing my wife that I could really use a Canon EF 400mm DO IS...she keeps on saying something about her preferences are to have the kitchen rennovated (which very well might be cheaper).

In some instances, the consumer may not really understand the differences between certain lenses and only be looking at tele length or zoom range instead of the glass. Many consumers are happy with say, the fairly inexpensive 70-300 lens, not realizing that the glass on it in no way compares to the much more costly 70-200mm VR with an F/2.8 aperture.

Agreed. I suspect its lot like the 'megapixel race', which was also reminiscient of the 'megahertz myth' ... its all too common to oversimplify and fixate on just one variable at the expense of all others: lenses by focal length, PC's by MHz/GHz CPU speed, automobiles by Horsepower, digital cameras by Megapixels, etc.

(7x-300mm before cropping factor?)

Nice, but I want something that is 100-500 without considering the crop factor, and no, I don't want the "Bigma," which is massive. I want a nice light, fast lens with enormous reach.....

*poof*

Done. You will find it sitting on the back seat of your flying car. :)

Okay, a bit more seriously, I think that the laws of physics are yanking that "have our cake" desire in opposite directions: to get mass down, we have to get the primary element's diameter down...and to do that without going to a horribly slow lens means that the sensor element has to do a quantum shrink in its size. Since we're already down into "photon counts" with current sensor tech for S/N ratio's, there's not that much room for us to work with...and even if we could get it all this far, the manufacturing tolerances on the optics would kill us, even before we start to consider how much their shape would be altered in troutine use by currently insignificant factors such as dust motes and cleaning solutions.



-hh
 

Chip NoVaMac

macrumors G3
Dec 25, 2003
8,888
31
Northern Virginia
patrick0brien said:
-platypus63

In the Nikon lense discussion - I'd go for the 28-200 1:3.5-5.6 G lens. Most versatile - and tiny for the range.


I'll second that. I have the D50 with the 18-200VR, and it was a great kit for my recent travels.

Though a lot is said by some about kit lenses. Yes, they are not top notch, but after selling many kits with them - I have never had a customer return it because of disappointment.
 

Chip NoVaMac

macrumors G3
Dec 25, 2003
8,888
31
Northern Virginia
patrick0brien said:
-Clix Pix

Holy crap! Umm yeah. Me too. the scary thing is with that range - it just might be possible we'll see something like that.

... 'course it'll be a $3,000 lens...

... and the availability will suck for a long time...

LOL, great post.

Actually I think that we'll see a "budget" 200-400VR 4.5-5.6. It would be a great companion to the 18-200VR.
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
-hh said:
Ah, that's right... VR = IS. Thanks.

I was trying to remember the Nikon nomenclature equivalents of Canon's EF (35mm) and EF-S (digital) lens mounts.

Since I'm not all that familiar with Canon's nomenclature, it totally slipped right by me that you weren't talking about the DX lenses vs traditional Nikkor FF 35mm lenses.... Nikon's "VR" stands for "Vibratiion Reduction," indeed. Guess they didn't want to use the term "Image Stablization" if that were already in use by Canon. :)

Well, that's OK: for the longest time I got confused when people on a photography site I sometimes participate in talked about "TV" on their Canon cameras. Huh? Why not just use the standard terminology like everyone else: aperture, shutter speed, etc...?! "TV" is Canon-speak for "shutter speed," isn't it? I've forgotten what it is for aperture.

-hh said:
Agreed. I suspect its lot like the 'megapixel race', which was also reminiscient of the 'megahertz myth' ... its all too common to oversimplify and fixate on just one variable at the expense of all others: lenses by focal length, PC's by MHz/GHz CPU speed, automobiles by Horsepower, digital cameras by Megapixels, etc.

Yep, you see that all too often these days. The consumer stands in the CompUSA or Microcenter or Best Buy camera display section and says, "but this one has more megapixels!" without taking anything else into consideration....oh, except price, of course. They want the most megapixels for their buck.

-hh said:
*poof*

Done. You will find it sitting on the back seat of your flying car. :)

*Jumps up from iMac, rushes to window to see if the flying car is parked in the driveway! :D

-hh said:
Okay, a bit more seriously, I think that the laws of physics are yanking that "have our cake" desire in opposite directions: to get mass down, we have to get the primary element's diameter down...and to do that without going to a horribly slow lens means that the sensor element has to do a quantum shrink in its size. Since we're already down into "photon counts" with current sensor tech for S/N ratio's, there's not that much room for us to work with...and even if we could get it all this far, the manufacturing tolerances on the optics would kill us, even before we start to consider how much their shape would be altered in troutine use by currently insignificant factors such as dust motes and cleaning solutions.

...And if the sensor shrinks i size any further you're gonna have a noisy camera at any ISO!
 

-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
Clix Pix said:
*Jumps up from iMac, rushes to window to see if the flying car is parked in the driveway! :D


flyingcar1fq.jpg


auto_flying.jpg



:D

-hh
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,828
2,033
Redondo Beach, California
Chip NoVaMac said:
LOL, great post.
Actually I think that we'll see a "budget" 200-400VR 4.5-5.6. It would be a great companion to the 18-200VR.

You can have one now. Just buy a 2x teleconverter and add it to your 18-200 and then you will have a 36-400 f/6-8 Maybe not as fast as you'd like but you did say "budget".

Actualy a 400mm lens is very hard to use VR or not. Thermal air currents and haze between you and the subject means that in the real world you can't photograph subjects that are very far away and even for moderate distances and small subjects (birds) you need a tripod and ball head that costs almost as much at the lens. Anyhting over 200mm is getting into some specialized gear
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,828
2,033
Redondo Beach, California
Clix Pix said:
as the D200 and the D2x are far more "unforgiving" of poor lens quality than the D70, for instance. It behooves the D200 buyer to be using pro quality lenses on that camera body, whereas it's not quite as critical an issue with a D70.

In terms of DPI, the D200 has only 29% more resolution then the D50/D70. What matters is pixels per inch, not the total number. So 10MP is only a slight (29%) increase over 6MP.

The D50 has 3000 pixels over 24mm wide sensor. that is 250 pixels per mm. Even a "pro" lens has a hard time imaging 100 lines per mm. For 100lpmm t you need good glass, a ridgid tripod and a high contrast subject. and guess what? 250ppm is just enough to sample a 100lpmm image. It looks like the engineers at nikon choose 6MP because it is the absolute minium needed to take advantage of a good lens. Better sampling will give better contrast in fine details but I doubt more details

In many case we are defraction limited. before we reach the limits of the 6MP sensor

I think actually 10MP is the most you'd want on a DX sized sensor and then you'd have to go full frame and 16MP. in 20 years when the DSLR becomes mature I'd expect to see full frame 16 to 20MP camera become the "standard" and not move after that.

Clix Pix said:
Nice, but I want something that is 100-500 without considering the crop factor, and no, I don't want the "Bigma," which is massive. I want a nice light, fast lens with enormous reach.....

Pick your max f-stop. Lets say you want it to be f/4.0. Then by definition the front element needs to be _at least_ 500/4.0 diameter that's 125mm or about 5 inches. No way to change that either.
 

patrick0brien

macrumors 68040
Oct 24, 2002
3,246
9
The West Loop
ChrisA said:
You can have one now. Just buy a 2x teleconverter and add it to your 18-200 and then you will have a 36-400 f/6-8 Maybe not as fast as you'd like but you did say "budget".

Actualy a 400mm lens is very hard to use VR or not. Thermal air currents and haze between you and the subject means that in the real world you can't photograph subjects that are very far away and even for moderate distances and small subjects (birds) you need a tripod and ball head that costs almost as much at the lens. Anyhting over 200mm is getting into some specialized gear
-ChrisA

True, but IIRC the teleconverters remove AF.
 

Chip NoVaMac

macrumors G3
Dec 25, 2003
8,888
31
Northern Virginia
patrick0brien said:
-ChrisA

True, but IIRC the teleconverters remove AF.

Not to mention the VR function.

We have not received word from Nikon at my shop about the compatibility of the 18-200VR with the Nikon TC convertors. My guess is that they will not lead to good results.
 

platypus63

macrumors regular
Original poster
Feb 28, 2006
167
0
Zanzibar Land
Thanks guys for the suggestions on my post. I just bought the D70 off my brother for a low family friendly price:). He was looking into a higher end model himself, but i made him hasten up his plans. Now I've gotta go and take some pictures.

Oh by the way, with the money i've saved getting this instead of a new D50, I can afford to purchase photoshop ($290 through my university!). Would you guys recommend that for a beginner photographer for either editing or manipulating? Or are the necessities covered enough in iphoto?

Thanks,
platypus
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
16,120
2,388
Lard
platypus63 said:
Thanks guys for the suggestions on my post. I just bought the D70 off my brother for a low family friendly price:). He was looking into a higher end model himself, but i made him hasten up his plans. Now I've gotta go and take some pictures.

Oh by the way, with the money i've saved getting this instead of a new D50, I can afford to purchase photoshop ($290 through my university!). Would you guys recommend that for a beginner photographer for either editing or manipulating? Or are the necessities covered enough in iphoto?

Thanks,
platypus

Photoshop Elements is enough for almost anyone who isn't doing professional print work.

Good luck with the new camera.
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Although that's a killer price (lucky students!) for Photoshop, the reality is that Photoshop Elements is more than sufficient for what you'll be doing. Buy that -- I think v.4 for Mac is now available -- and then put the extra funds towards a really good lens.
 
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