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Slix

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I have way more PowerPC Macs than any other type of Mac in my collection, but I have a few Intels too. My main 2012 MacBook Air, of course, but other than that I've gotten ahold of a few early Intel Macs too. 3 white MacBooks (ranging from 2006-early 2009), a 2006 24" white iMac, a 2008 20" aluminum iMac, and a 2006 Mac Mini. I do like using Snow Leopard on them, simply because they just feel right running it. They're quick, and they feel era appropriate too. The 2009 MacBook and 2008 iMac are running El Capitan for a little more modern support (I've used them as backup machines on occasion), the two other MacBooks are running Lion (but don't get a lot of use lately), and the others are running Snow Leopard. The Mac Mini actually gets the most regular use because I watch YouTube on it while I'm exercising in the basement.

They're all very capable machines with the right software still! I got most of these for cheap over the past couple years because hardly anyone wants an early Intel machine these days, and they're not quite "collectible" yet (or might ever be, who knows), so the prices are very low.
 

Wowfunhappy

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For what it's worth, I really, really want a combined "Early Intel" forum on MacRumors. Something that covers 10.6 – 10.9. Right now discussion is split between this section and the 4+ sections dedicated to individual OS releases (SL, Lion, ML, Mavericks). Individually they don't get much activity, but combined I think they'd make for a really nice community.

Perhaps others interested in early intel could drop a note in that thread so admins might notice? ;)
 
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1042686

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Sep 3, 2016
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For what it's worth, I really, really want a combined "Early Intel" forum on MacRumors. Something that covers 10.6 – 10.9. Right now discussion is split between this section and the 4+ sections dedicated to individual OS releases (SL, Lion, ML, Mavericks). Individually they don't get much activity, but combined I think they'd make for a really nice community.

Perhaps others interested in early intel could drop a note in that thread so admins might notice? ;)

Has anyone asked the moderators nicely? If deaf ears are found, I’m a huge fan of blatant, unabashed bribery. :)
 

bobesch

macrumors 68020
Oct 21, 2015
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For what it's worth, I really, really want a combined "Early Intel" forum on MacRumors. Something that covers 10.6 – 10.9. Right now discussion is split between this section and the 4+ sections dedicated to individual OS releases (SL, Lion, ML, Mavericks). Individually they don't get much activity, but combined I think they'd make for a really nice community.
Perhaps others interested in early intel could drop a note in that thread so admins might notice? ;)

It would be great, to have the intel coreduo and core2duo gathered in a dedicated subforum.
Or maybe have all pre-Retina Macs, that offer swapable harddrives and RAM included in an
early & very-early intel-Macs subforum .
They all share the limit of (at best) Catalina-(Patch) as their last available macOS (with the very early-intels with coreduo or 32bit EFI only limited to SL or Lion).
The whole group of pre-retina models does seem to me like a connected group like the G3/G4 iBooks and Powerbooks are.
They all won't get any further macOS-upgrades. Apples generous Trade-in offer is limited to "recycling for free". And askings questions / making suggestions about these machines in any other section of any forum beyond PPC- or Collectors-subforums will result in innumerable "helpful" comments recommending to buy a new Mac.
 

timidpimpin

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I gave it a try. Me and my Mac a few minutes ago. Yes... I look a lot like Steve Jobs.

f5bd6fb3cb128cb4c6fcf2a5f3f85bc6.jpg
 

sanfrancisofont1984

macrumors regular
Aug 5, 2020
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While not particularly early. I think Mac Pro 6,1 (aka trash can) is quite collectible. Obviously one would wait for the price to drop.
 

2984839

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Apr 19, 2014
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It would be great, to have the intel coreduo and core2duo gathered in a dedicated subforum.
Or maybe have all pre-Retina Macs, that offer swapable harddrives and RAM included in an
early & very-early intel-Macs subforum .
They all share the limit of (at best) Catalina-(Patch) as their last available macOS (with the very early-intels with coreduo or 32bit EFI only limited to SL or Lion).
The whole group of pre-retina models does seem to me like a connected group like the G3/G4 iBooks and Powerbooks are.
They all won't get any further macOS-upgrades. Apples generous Trade-in offer is limited to "recycling for free". And askings questions / making suggestions about these machines in any other section of any forum beyond PPC- or Collectors-subforums will result in innumerable "helpful" comments recommending to buy a new Mac.

The problem with the Intel Mac forums is that 99% of the threads there belong in the Buying Advice forum. Threads about actually using those things get drowned out in a sea of "Should I wait or buy now?" nonsense and those people's questions never get answered, or get dumb answers.

I agree with you 100%, in case that wasn't clear.
 

Amethyst1

macrumors G3
Oct 28, 2015
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Threads about actually using those things get drowned out in a sea of "Should I wait or buy now?" nonsense
Why isn't this nonsense restricted to the proper subforum I wonder? (not that there is a proper place for nonsense... I'll stop now! :p)
 

Wowfunhappy

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Mar 12, 2019
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The problem with the Intel Mac forums is that 99% of the threads there belong in the Buying Advice forum. Threads about actually using those things get drowned out in a sea of "Should I wait or buy now?" nonsense and those people's questions never get answered, or get dumb answers.

"Early Intel" isn't actually a good name for what I want—I want a section dedicated to the early Intel versions of OS X, and more specifically Snow Leopard through Mavericks.

I realize that split point is somewhat arbitrary, but Mavericks and Yosemite feels like they belong to distinctly different eras in OS X history. The earlier end of the timeline is a bit messier, but Tiger and Leopard are already well covered over in this PowerPC section. (And I don't think there are many people super dedicated to running Leopard on Intel machines; Tiger may be a different story, since it has a number of unique qualities.)
 
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RogerWilco6502

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"Early Intel" isn't actually a good name for what I want—I want a section dedicated to the early Intel versions of OS X, and more specifically Snow Leopard through Mavericks.

I realize that split point is somewhat arbitrary, but Mavericks and Yosemite feels like they belong to distinctly different eras in OS X history. The earlier end of the timeline is a bit messier, but Tiger and Leopard are already well covered over in this PowerPC section. (And I don't think there are many people super dedicated to running Leopard on Intel machines; Tiger may be a different story, since it has a number of unique qualities.)
If we were drawing a split point, I'd argue it would be between 10.10 and 10.11. 10.11 introduced the new Disk Utility and SIP among other things.
 

retta283

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I realize that split point is somewhat arbitrary, but Mavericks and Yosemite feels like they belong to distinctly different eras in OS X history. The earlier end of the timeline is a bit messier, but Tiger and Leopard are already well covered over in this PowerPC section. (And I don't think there are many people super dedicated to running Leopard on Intel machines; Tiger may be a different story, since it has a number of unique qualities.)
At least in my case, I have Tiger installed on all capable Intel Macs I own, and a few unsupported ones. Leopard is a niche one, as Snow Leopard really is just an improved version and is preferable in most cases.

In terms of a split point, I am not certain on when this is, I have two definitions. One is in agreement with you, there definitely was a shift from Mavericks to Yosemite, which carries to today with Big Sur. The second is the transition from SL to Lion, with iOS elements being brought over. IMO, this was a major change and definitely is noticeable. For me I see 10.7-10.9 as being in their own category separate from what came before and after.
 
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Wowfunhappy

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At least in my case, I have Tiger installed on all capable Intel Macs I own, and a few unsupported ones. Leopard is a niche one, as Snow Leopard really is just an improved version and is preferable in most cases.

In terms of a split point, I am not certain on when this is, I have two definitions. One is in agreement with you, there definitely was a shift from Mavericks to Yosemite, which carries to today with Big Sur. The second is the transition from SL to Lion, with iOS elements being brought over. IMO, this was a major change and definitely is noticeable. For me I see 10.7-10.9 as being in their own category separate from what came before and after.

I don't disagree that 10.5/10.6 has distinct qualities from 10.7/10.9, but the goal would be to combine sections to the point where there's enough activity to sustain a distinct community. We currently have a section just for Snow Leopard; it does not get enough activity on its own, and adding in Leopard probably wouldn't help much.

I'm also not so concerned about where the line is drawn at the low-end, I just don't want to step on the toes of this existing, wonderful PPC section.

If we were drawing a split point, I'd argue it would be between 10.10 and 10.11. 10.11 introduced the new Disk Utility and SIP among other things.

SIP can be easily turned on and off, and Disk Utility, while an important app for enthusiasts, is not particularly central to the Mac experience; most users probably don't know what it is. I've always thought of El Capitan as Yosemite's Snow Leopard—a polish release with lots of under-the-hood changes but few user-visible ones—and I think that was Apple's intention as well, since El Capitan is a mountain in Yosemite National Park.

From the perspective of building a community, I think what's most important is choosing a group of OS's that (mostly) share app compatibility, so users can discuss the same software. Most software released when Leopard was current runs fine through Mavericks without problems. By contrast, anything that wasn't updated for Yosemite usually looks odd at minimum, and tends to be buggy in general.
 
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RogerWilco6502

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It's funny, I've always thought of El Capitan as Yosemite's Snow Leopard—a polish release with lots of under-the-hood changes but few user-visible ones. I think this was Apple's intention too, because El Capitan is a mountain in Yosemite National Park. SIP can be easily turned on and off, and most Mac users don't know what Disk Utility is to begin with; it's an important app for enthusiasts but not particularly central to the Mac experience.

From the perspective of building a community, I think what's most important is choosing a group of OS's that (mostly) share app compatibility, so users can discuss the same software. Most software released when Leopard was current runs fine through Mavericks without problems. By contrast, anything that wasn't updated for Yosemite usually odd at minimum, and it has a tendency to be buggy in general.
Ah, good points. Can attest to the software thing first hand. :D
 

bobesch

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Looking at the PPC-forum as an example - it covers system software starting at os8 up to OSX 10.5 Leopard. That's a long range, but there's always a way, how PPC stuff can be nicely connected in order to share files and make information flow.

Under the aspects of expandability (harddrive/RAM etc), connectivity (with PPC downgrade-compatibility of SMB/AFP), interchangeability (PPC compatible drives with HFS+) a common group of very-early-intels (cduo/c2duo /w silver-keyboard and matte display), the mid-early-intels (c2duo, black-keyboard) and the late-early-intels (i3/i5 non-retina up to 2012) would become a decent group for a great community.
- ElCapitan is the official threshold for HFS+ (even if Mojave-Patch can keep HFS+ alive).
- Mojave(Patch) is the latest system to run 32-bit-application (a couple of mine cover the period from Tiger to Mojave - including MS-Office'08)
- ElCapitan (and maybe up to Mojave) allow SMB/AFP connections down to PPC with Tiger/Leopard (even if that may need a few minor adjustments on some later macOS versions).

Even if there were major breaks and changes in the line of macOS during that 2006-2012 lasting period (Tiger/Leopard: treshold to intel, Lion: loosing Rosetta, first download-installation; ML: leaving 32-bit hardware behind etc.), I think, that a common group of very-early/mid/late-early would be a good thing, cause there are a lot of things in common and also a lot of superficially tiny things that separate devices of that period significantly - and the swarm intelligence of users, that would cover the whole period would be of great help to keep the overview.

At least, that might be something helpful to convince MR-officials ...
 
Looking at the PPC-forum as an example - it covers system software starting at os8 up to OSX 10.5 Leopard. That's a long range, but there's always a way, how PPC stuff can be nicely connected in order to share files and make information flow.

Under the aspects of expandability (harddrive/RAM etc), connectivity (with PPC downgrade-compatibility of SMB/AFP), interchangeability (PPC compatible drives with HFS+) a common group of very-early-intels (cduo/c2duo /w silver-keyboard and matte display), the mid-early-intels (c2duo, black-keyboard) and the late-early-intels (i3/i5 non-retina up to 2012) would become a decent group for a great community.
- ElCapitan is the official threshold for HFS+ (even if Mojave-Patch can keep HFS+ alive).
- Mojave(Patch) is the latest system to run 32-bit-application (a couple of mine cover the period from Tiger to Mojave - including MS-Office'08)
- ElCapitan (and maybe up to Mojave) allow SMB/AFP connections down to PPC with Tiger/Leopard (even if that may need a few minor adjustments on some later macOS versions).

Even if there were major breaks and changes in the line of macOS during that 2006-2012 lasting period (Tiger/Leopard: treshold to intel, Lion: loosing Rosetta, first download-installation; ML: leaving 32-bit hardware behind etc.), I think, that a common group of very-early/mid/late-early would be a good thing, cause there are a lot of things in common and also a lot of superficially tiny things that separate devices of that period significantly - and the swarm intelligence of users, that would cover the whole period would be of great help to keep the overview.

At least, that might be something helpful to convince MR-officials ...

Along this line, I would be delighted to see a forum of Legacy Macs with sub-forums for both the hardware — PPC (which would basically be this forum) and an earlier Intel forum (generally what Apple has been calling “vintage” in their support documentation) — and the software (moving the existing Older OS X Versions sub-forums for 10.3, up to maybe 10.11 underneath that), yielding a forum structure along the lines of:

Legacy Apple
Macs
PowerPC Macs​
Early Intel Macs​
Enterprise Macs (Xserve)​
Older OS X versions
Mac OS X Cheetah/Puma/Jaguar (10.0–10.2)​
Mac OS X Panther (10.3)​
…​
Mac OS X El Capitan (10.11)​
OS X Server (1.0, 10.0–10.9, 4.0–5.1)
Non-OS X PPC operating systems​
PPC Darwin/Linux/BSD​
BeOS/Haiku​
Amiga/MorphOS​
Vintage accessories (non-iOS iPods, etc.)
…​


And so on.

A compelling case to re-structure along supported/unsupported Mac-related gear may present a significant change to the hierarchy of forums already operating. I am not sure the MacRumors lead mods would warm to the idea of re-examining a paradigmatic adjustment to aggregating sub-forums relating to legacy gear along the above lines.

That said, there is a growing gap between Mac users and forum users who focus generally on new and/or supported Mac stuff, and Mac users who are trying to eke the very most out of their older, unsupported gear.

At this time, the latter bloc of users must bounce across major forum hierarchy trees to seek out, say, how to run Snow Leopard-related (software) features on their C2D (hardware) Mac. They are generally harder-pressed to land on a community of core users for these on the current-Intel hardware sub-forums — while the older OS X versions are sort of buried in a completely separate area, nowhere near where, say, the PowerPC Macs sub-forum lives (where a core group of folks are still using and discussing the operation of not only PPC Macs, but also early Intel gear and older OS X systems which run on those, including patched versions on officially unsupported hardware).

But I don’t know. I imagine we’d probably want to coalesce accord around a Legacy Apple sub-forum hierarchy tree first before we formally try to approach the mods with a plan like this.
 
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Wowfunhappy

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Legacy Apple
Macs
PowerPC Macs​
Early Intel Macs​
Enterprise Macs (Xserve)​
Older OS X versions
Mac OS X Cheetah/Puma/Jaguar (10.0–10.2)​
Mac OS X Panther (10.3)​
…​
Mac OS X El Capitan (10.11)​
OS X Server (1.0, 10.0–10.9, 4.0–5.1)​
Non-OS X PPC operating systems​
PPC Darwin/Linux/BSD​
BeOS/Haiku​
Amiga/MorphOS​
Vintage accessories (non-iOS iPods, etc.)
…​

IMO this is far too split up, and would merely exacerbate the current problem with the old OS sub-forums. There's not enough activity to support that many sections.

If we wanted to rework the current PPC section alongside adding an early-Intel section, I think I would go for something closer to this:

Legacy Apple
Legacy OS X
• Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, & Tiger (10.0 – 10.4)​
• Leopard, Lion, & Mavericks (10.5 – 10.9)​
Legacy Macs
• PowerPC Macs​
• Early Intel Macs (2006 – 2012)​
Legacy Accessories
• ...​

You could also add a section under Legacy OS X for 10.10 – 10.11, but my gut is that they're too recent as of 2020. We could revisit in a few years.

"Non-OS X PPC Operating Systems" could continue to live in the "PowerPC Macs" sub-forum, since in that case the Apple connection is based on hardware.

I don't love grouping 10.5—which is likely to have a mostly-PPC userbase—in with the Intel-only 10.6–10.9, but I'm not sure what else to do with it, because it clearly doesn't belong alongside 10.4. Most Leopard-era software used universal binaries, so the distinction may be less meaningful than it initially appears.

But, I also don't think such a big change is necessarily needed in order to have a nice place to discuss early-Intel operating systems. Grouping the old OS subforums is almost as effective, and it doesn't risk interfering with an existing PPC community that's clearly doing well under the current structure.
 
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bobesch

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IMO this is far too split up, and would merely exacerbate the current problem with the old OS sub-forums. There's not enough activity to support that many sections.
[...]
Legacy Apple
Legacy OS X
• Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, & Tiger (10.0 – 10.4)
• Leopard, Lion, & Mavericks (10.5 – 10.9)
Legacy Macs
• PowerPC Macs
• Early Intel Macs (2006 – 2012)
[...]

I'd leave it with a request for a single "Legacy intel-Mac" subforum too (that would perfectly match it's "PPC-Forum" example/counterpart).
People with their respective older or newer intel-hardware will find out, what it's all about: a place for all kind of legacy-intel related questions and no place for stupid or arrogant answers. And a place with respectful communication, like within this PPC-forum.
Cheers.
 
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IMO this is far too split up, and would merely exacerbate the current problem with the old OS sub-forums. There's not enough activity to support that many sections.

I suppose so.

I neglected to mention how several of these sub-forum suggestions already exist.

By using bolded blue (and linking to them), and borrowing from your suggestions, I’ve highlighted orphan sub-forums already in existence on MR forums but are scattered from one another, despite their shared relationships as being no longer supported:


Legacy Apple
OS X
10.0–10.3 (Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Panther)​
10.410.6 (Tiger, Leopard, Snow Leopard)​
Macs
Early Intel Macs (2006–2012)​
Enterprise Macs (Xserve 2002–2011)​
Accessories (non-iOS iPods, etc.) …​



"Non-OS X PPC Operating Systems" could continue to live in the "PowerPC Macs" sub-forum, since in that case the Apple connection is based on hardware.

That’s fair.


I don't love grouping 10.5—which is likely to have a mostly-PPC userbase—in with the Intel-only 10.6–10.9, but I'm not sure what else to do with it, because it clearly doesn't belong alongside 10.4. Most Leopard-era software used universal binaries, so the distinction may be less meaningful than it initially appears.

By keeping Tiger, Leopard, and Snow Leopard together — all involved during the PPC-Intel handover — it keeps that integral group discrete from the early PPC-only systems and from the Intel-only systems to follow.


But, I also don't think such a big change is necessarily needed in order to have a nice place to discuss early-Intel operating systems. Grouping the old OS subforums is almost as effective, and it doesn't risk interfering with an existing PPC community that's clearly doing well under the current structure.

Over on the OS X Snow Leopard 10.6 sub-forum, there has been a months-long project of getting an early build of Snow Leopard running on PPC systems. There have been moderator requests to either have that active thread moved over to this sub-forum or at least pinned. There remain PPC forum users who may not be very familiar with that PPC-related project.

Seeing how moving that thread is unlikely to occur, this raises questions around why there are orphaned Snow Leopard, Leopard, and Tiger sub-forums over there which are not in any meaningful way linked with the PowerPC sub-forum — nor are they seeing much activity from folks over here (with that one SL thread excepted).
 
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Wowfunhappy

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I’ve highlighted orphan sub-forums already in existence on MR forums but are scattered from one another

Right, and my core thesis is that there's too many of those. My original thinking was that we could:

  • Close the subforums for OS X 10.3 – 10.5. Those topics should go in the PPC subforum, where they will be seen by more people!
  • Combine the subforums for OS X 10.6 – 10.9 into some kind of "Early Intel OS" subforum, ideally with a better name if someone can come up with one.
Putting similar subforums closer together in the hierarchy doesn't actually help much if they're still separate sections. I want be able to go to one place to see relevant topics, and I want a place to make topics that are broadly relevant to a range of old versions.

Personally, I still think the above is the best and simplest course of action. It doesn't make any sweeping changes to the forum, and it would neatly resolve the primary issue.

I will however recognize that I have my own biases here—for example, I don't tend to think about hardware that much, because in truth I'm primarily a Hackintosh user. I can see how someone with a 2006 Macbook would have different priorities for an "Early-Intel" section, and that's valid!


Over on the OS X Snow Leopard 10.6 sub-forum, there has been a months-long project of getting an early build of Snow Leopard running on PPC systems. There have been moderator requests to either have that active thread moved over to this sub-forum or at least pinned. There remain PPC forum users who may not be very familiar with that PPC-related project.

I actually think that topic belongs over here in the PPC sub-forum, under both the current structure and under the scenario where we combined 10.6 – 10.9 into an early-Intel section.

----------

Now, if (!) we were going to go with this larger restructuring, I would be quite strongly against splitting 10.6 and 10.7. Aside from a few iOS visuals, those versions are really quite similar in most respects, and so there are lots of conversations that would be hampered by such a divide.

I originally spent half an hour writing about why a split point between 10.4 & 10.5 is more correct philosophically (which I do believe), but I've deleted it for now, because I think there may be an easier way to do this:

Legacy Apple
• Legacy OS X (10.0 – 10.9)​
Legacy Macs
• PowerPC Macs​
• Early Intel Macs (2006 – 2012)​
Legacy Accessories
• ...​

(macOS Server is still a supported product despite its pitiful state, I don't think it belongs in a legacy section.)

Problem solved. The reason not to do this would be if we think discussions about later versions risk drowning out earlier ones, or vice versa, which is also why I would really want a cap at 10.9. But, I don't think that's such a huge risk, especially if we have seperate areas for hardware-specific discussions.

If we decided pushing 10.0 – 10.9 all together was too much, I also think the Snow Leopard on PPC project would fit right at home in a 10.5 – 10.9 section! If 10.5 is included, then the subforum is inherently architecture-agnostic.
 
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Macbookprodude

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In my opinion, the best and only intel Macbook Pros to use are: 2012 and 2015. All else is garbage - 2011 with the radeongate problem - who wants that ? 2010 with its destructive graphics artifacts on the 15 inch ? the 17 inch which can't even support 16GB of memory.. even below that the rest are no match for the 2012.
 

RogerWilco6502

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As a user I more or less agree. As a collector just find things at low price and take the gamble?
I mean, using anything later than 2011 (and even some 2011 models) precludes you from using Snow Leopard, which is an important OS to have access to for some people's use cases. A usefulness of a computer isn't defined by how fast a computer is but rather what purpose it can serve the user. I have multiple old Macs that are integral to how I work.
 
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