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Hmmm wasn't controlling the hardware and software the selling point? That they could manipulate the product anyway they want, including not having 'unpredictable' bugs?

Apple wouldn't market the bug benefits of tight hardware & software integration to the masses, so I'm going to have to guess that they haven't actually done so.

What they have brought up time and time again, though, is the fact that controlling key portions of their products' hardware makeup allows them to deliver meaningful (to Apple at least) year-over-year improvements to their products. The less reliant they are on a third party providing a key hardware component, the better they are able to predict and protect their software and hardware timelines going forward. That's why they design their own CPUs and GPUs, and want to design their own cellular modems too. Mobile devices rely on performance-per-watt and connectivity. One of these things Apple is great at, and the other is provided by third parties at this time.

Non-Intel Mac-like devices, for instance, are inevitable, but they wouldn't be if Apple had to rely on a third party to design powerful and power-efficient SOCs for them. Apple simply couldn't forecast that hardware launch with any accuracy if they didn't, which in turn would mean trouble for their software development.

You need only search for "construction / design fails" on Youtube to see what can happen when you have one party design and another implement.
 
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My point being: Apple has probably the largest beta tester population of any private company, yet in-still the notion is "well its going to be buggy for the first few months of release." Why should it be that way? Why have a beta at all?

Why release updates that aren't fully ready? Just because it's been a year since the last update?
Which include all the features that's we were supposed to have day 1. In the past few years there have been dozens of major feature pushed back to a .1 update.

Why should it be that way? That's been answered repeatedly now. It's an extremely complex system written by humans that make mistakes. Just because they're Apple, or have a public beta, or have lots of money doesn't give them access to an exclusive pool of perfect humans who make no mistakes. Software development works the way it works and neither extra people or money can change that. It takes one woman 9 months to make a baby. How long would it take with 9 women? 9 months. Not every problem can be solved with added resources. It takes one guy 6 months to build a house. It takes a crew of ten just a month to build the same house. It takes a crew of 10,000 people many years to build the same house because there are just too many people. More people isn't always the answer. Apple being richer than pretty much every other company out there doesn't mean they get to skirt around these basic ideas.

Why have a beta at all? Why are you assuming having the beta doesn't help? Wouldn't it make more sense to assume Apple wouldn't spend the money putting it all together if they got nothing out of it? I presume that they get valuable feedback or they wouldn't waste their time. They love secrecy, so they're not doing it for fun. It seems more natural for them to do things that make sense rather than doing things that don't make sense. Companies generally don't become as successful as Apple by making bad decisions. Just my opinion of course.

What release updates that aren't fully ready? Business reasons. Also, bugs are inevitable. If they wait till it's bug free, we'd get updates every 10 years. Then 10 years worth of features would be added which would take 20 years to debug. So where do you set the bar? How many bugs are acceptable and still release the software? There are always tradeoffs. Do you keep the new feature from 99% of your users because it's broken for 1%? Things aren't black and white. Neither are they simple questions to answer when you get down in the trenches. We just did a major upgrade to our claim processing system this past weekend. It got put off several times because of bugs. But there were other deadlines pushing in the opposite direction which meant it absolutely had to go this past weekend, ready or not. It all went well in the end. But it's a lot more complex than: bugs = no release. It seems like a simple question, but it's far more complex when there are dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of things that need to all come together and pass before you're ready to release. We probably had a dozen or two departments involved in our upgrade. Each of them probably had their own go-live checklist of things that needed to be done. Some of those tasks may have taken multiple people to complete. The IS department had probably 15-20 different teams in the department doing the same. Getting 100% of the people to be 100% done with all their tasks doesn't always happen. Then the question needs asked: do we go live or not? There were probably over 200 people ultimately involved in one fashion or another to make things go smoothly. The sites my team launched will be used by thousands of people. Apples software will be used by hundreds of millions of people. I bet their releases are more complex than what we just went through.

Hope that helps you see things from the other side and helps answer your questions.
 
Why should it be that way? That's been answered repeatedly now. It's an extremely complex system written by humans that make mistakes. Just because they're Apple, or have a public beta, or have lots of money doesn't give them access to an exclusive pool of perfect humans who make no mistakes. Software development works the way it works and neither extra people or money can change that. It takes one woman 9 months to make a baby. How long would it take with 9 women? 9 months. Not every problem can be solved with added resources. It takes one guy 6 months to build a house. It takes a crew of ten just a month to build the same house. It takes a crew of 10,000 people many years to build the same house because there are just too many people. More people isn't always the answer. Apple being richer than pretty much every other company out there doesn't mean they get to skirt around these basic ideas.

Why have a beta at all? Why are you assuming having the beta doesn't help? Wouldn't it make more sense to assume Apple wouldn't spend the money putting it all together if they got nothing out of it? I presume that they get valuable feedback or they wouldn't waste their time. They love secrecy, so they're not doing it for fun. It seems more natural for them to do things that make sense rather than doing things that don't make sense. Companies generally don't become as successful as Apple by making bad decisions. Just my opinion of course.

What release updates that aren't fully ready? Business reasons. Also, bugs are inevitable. If they wait till it's bug free, we'd get updates every 10 years. Then 10 years worth of features would be added which would take 20 years to debug. So where do you set the bar? How many bugs are acceptable and still release the software? There are always tradeoffs. Do you keep the new feature from 99% of your users because it's broken for 1%? Things aren't black and white. Neither are they simple questions to answer when you get down in the trenches. We just did a major upgrade to our claim processing system this past weekend. It got put off several times because of bugs. But there were other deadlines pushing in the opposite direction which meant it absolutely had to go this past weekend, ready or not. It all went well in the end. But it's a lot more complex than: bugs = no release. It seems like a simple question, but it's far more complex when there are dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of things that need to all come together and pass before you're ready to release. We probably had a dozen or two departments involved in our upgrade. Each of them probably had their own go-live checklist of things that needed to be done. Some of those tasks may have taken multiple people to complete. The IS department had probably 15-20 different teams in the department doing the same. Getting 100% of the people to be 100% done with all their tasks doesn't always happen. Then the question needs asked: do we go live or not? There were probably over 200 people ultimately involved in one fashion or another to make things go smoothly. The sites my team launched will be used by thousands of people. Apples software will be used by hundreds of millions of people. I bet their releases are more complex than what we just went through.

Hope that helps you see things from the other side and helps answer your questions.
I agree Windows Vista was actually a good update just misunderstood by people who don't understand "complex" software engineering. :)

All I'm trying to say Apple is better than this. If they really wanted to make solid software (day 1) they could. Demand perfection, pay overtime.
 
All I'm trying to say Apple is better than this. If they really wanted to make solid software (day 1) they could. Demand perfection, pay overtime.

All I'm saying is not every problem can be solved with money or expecting people to do the impossible.
 
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Why should it be that way? That's been answered repeatedly now. It's an extremely complex system written by humans that make mistakes. Just because they're Apple, or have a public beta, or have lots of money doesn't give them access to an exclusive pool of perfect humans who make no mistakes. Software development works the way it works and neither extra people or money can change that. It takes one woman 9 months to make a baby. How long would it take with 9 women? 9 months. Not every problem can be solved with added resources. It takes one guy 6 months to build a house. It takes a crew of ten just a month to build the same house. It takes a crew of 10,000 people many years to build the same house because there are just too many people. More people isn't always the answer. Apple being richer than pretty much every other company out there doesn't mean they get to skirt around these basic ideas.

Why have a beta at all? Why are you assuming having the beta doesn't help? Wouldn't it make more sense to assume Apple wouldn't spend the money putting it all together if they got nothing out of it? I presume that they get valuable feedback or they wouldn't waste their time. They love secrecy, so they're not doing it for fun. It seems more natural for them to do things that make sense rather than doing things that don't make sense. Companies generally don't become as successful as Apple by making bad decisions. Just my opinion of course.

What release updates that aren't fully ready? Business reasons. Also, bugs are inevitable. If they wait till it's bug free, we'd get updates every 10 years. Then 10 years worth of features would be added which would take 20 years to debug. So where do you set the bar? How many bugs are acceptable and still release the software? There are always tradeoffs. Do you keep the new feature from 99% of your users because it's broken for 1%? Things aren't black and white. Neither are they simple questions to answer when you get down in the trenches. We just did a major upgrade to our claim processing system this past weekend. It got put off several times because of bugs. But there were other deadlines pushing in the opposite direction which meant it absolutely had to go this past weekend, ready or not. It all went well in the end. But it's a lot more complex than: bugs = no release. It seems like a simple question, but it's far more complex when there are dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of things that need to all come together and pass before you're ready to release. We probably had a dozen or two departments involved in our upgrade. Each of them probably had their own go-live checklist of things that needed to be done. Some of those tasks may have taken multiple people to complete. The IS department had probably 15-20 different teams in the department doing the same. Getting 100% of the people to be 100% done with all their tasks doesn't always happen. Then the question needs asked: do we go live or not? There were probably over 200 people ultimately involved in one fashion or another to make things go smoothly. The sites my team launched will be used by thousands of people. Apples software will be used by hundreds of millions of people. I bet their releases are more complex than what we just went through.

Hope that helps you see things from the other side and helps answer your questions.

Well said, and also observed in academia:

 
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The thing about that is that a lot of people want something "shiny and new" pretty much as often as possible.

It’s the combination of accounting + marketing idiots.

somehow they always end up in control of every once great company and turn it into Xerox or PepsiCo

and no one knows how to stop it...except the Chinese
 
You guys and gals crack me up...especially the old timers waxing on about their great bag phones and Windows 3.11...I was alive when those were out....they sucked compared to today's products.

What was the user base for those products back then? How many features did that great phone have? I'm sure it had a great signal since only about 1,000 people were accessing it at once.

Modern smartphones have gotten about, oh, a gajillion times smarter and more complicated yet are being utilized by the masses (aka, really stupid people) who will NEVER have most of the issues mentioned by the "smarter" super users on this site.

Get over yourselves....
 
All I'm trying to say Apple is better than this. If they really wanted to make solid software (day 1) they could. Demand perfection, pay overtime.
No, they could not. Perfection doesn't exist.
Or they could, if "day 1" were five years from now. By which time that software would become worthless anyway (would you want a "perfect" iOS 7 today?).
 
One of their problems is services. iCloud, photos, reminders were all very message because they upgrade their hardware, software and services all in a single release cycle. No other company does that.

It is bizarre that reminders can only be upgraded as part of an OS release. It's a service now. People depend on it.

iCloud Drive was very buggy affecting people's files. Which other file hosting provider has done that? Imagine Dropbox doing that. They'd be out of business.

They should have made the apps that are part of services become independent. Release iCloud Drive when it's ready. Not when iOS13 needs to be ready. But they are too tightly integrated now.
 
From what I’ve seen, it boils down to “if you think there’s an easy solution, you don’t understand the complexity of the problem.”
 
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Honestly, Apple has turned into Microsoft. With Win10, Microsoft basically made it the consumer's job to do QA. They rely on telemetry sent from Win10 devices (often including personal info) which experience bugs, instead of doing the testing themselves. People have lost data over this laziness. Now Apple is doing it. How long is it gonna be before some update accidentally deletes the user's photo library?
 
No , Xs max on iOS 13.1.2 vs iPhone pro iOS 13.1.2 .. it’s a big and absurd difference

Interesting that you say this. I have an 11PM now. I traded it for an XSM on the IUP. I test-drove 13.0 on that XSM for over a day before jumping into a new phone and new iOS version. 13.0 ran just fine on that XSM - I didn't have any of the problems that plague this 11PM. Yeah, I'm talking about only a day, but it takes only minutes to have bugs, glitches and defects show up on the 11PM, and that's been true with 13.0, 13.0.1, 13.0.2 and 13.0.3.
 
Considering apple took a year out (iOs 12) to iron all the bugs from ios 11 and then back in iOs 13 - full of bugs.
I have bought a new iphone 11 and found that location services are always on despite everything turned off. it happens only on new phone, not my iphone 6s.
Mail is slow at bringing new emails, search in mail is slow, everytime you open mail, i see: account error message, bluetooth disconnecting in the car and the list goes on with notification havocs.
I understand that there can be glitches, hiccups, crashes and bugs here and there but what's the point of having developer beta and the public beta if the final users are going to see those bugs which were reported back in summer at the testing stage. Well either devs don't know how to fix them or they don't care or they know but want to take time to fix them to show that they are busy in something..

I am genuinely disappointed and feel that over coming years, Apple software will not be as polished and shiny as it used to be and we just need to get used to to this mess.
 
Long time listener, 9th time replying :) I agree with most of what has been said here...yes, tech is more complicated and takes more testing, will always have some bugs, glitches, etc. I too have been a cell user since the bag phone, and there have always been issues. But here is my thing, one of the main reasons to be an iPhone user is the 'it just works' mentality...unlike Android (which I've also used extensively), not a lot to customize, not a lot to change to have it just work. Unfortunately I think those days are gone. I'm fine with getting updates to fix things that are broken, I'm not fine with updates that may fix one thing, but breaks two others....I started fresh on the new iPhone 11, updated as . releases came out...my CarPlay (which wasn't broken before) is now hit or miss working at best. This feature is one of the main uses for my phone (btw - I have tried fixes listed throughout these forums, and better, but not great).

It's no longer 'it just works', it's more 'some stuff might work, some stuff won't, just wait to see what the next update brings'.....that's the frustrating part.
 
You guys and gals crack me up...especially the old timers waxing on about their great bag phones and Windows 3.11...I was alive when those were out....they sucked compared to today's products.

What was the user base for those products back then? How many features did that great phone have? I'm sure it had a great signal since only about 1,000 people were accessing it at once.

Modern smartphones have gotten about, oh, a gajillion times smarter and more complicated yet are being utilized by the masses (aka, really stupid people) who will NEVER have most of the issues mentioned by the "smarter" super users on this site.

Get over yourselves....
Me too, DR Dos, Windows 3.0, the 3.1 then 3.11 for workgroups now that was a big jump :)
I really miss Office that came on a ton of 3.5" FDD's :)
 
Considering apple took a year out (iOs 12) to iron all the bugs from ios 11 and then back in iOs 13 - full of bugs.
I have bought a new iphone 11 and found that location services are always on despite everything turned off. it happens only on new phone, not my iphone 6s.
Mail is slow at bringing new emails, search in mail is slow, everytime you open mail, i see: account error message, bluetooth disconnecting in the car and the list goes on with notification havocs.
I understand that there can be glitches, hiccups, crashes and bugs here and there but what's the point of having developer beta and the public beta if the final users are going to see those bugs which were reported back in summer at the testing stage. Well either devs don't know how to fix them or they don't care or they know but want to take time to fix them to show that they are busy in something..

I am genuinely disappointed and feel that over coming years, Apple software will not be as polished and shiny as it used to be and we just need to get used to to this mess.

I'm afraid that we're back in the two year cycle like iOS 11/12. 11 was a mess, though not as bad as 13. iOS 12 was mostly a great experience and in its later versions ran almost perfectly all the time. I'm wondering if we're going to have to wait until 14 to get 13 actually fixed.
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Me too, DR Dos, Windows 3.0, the 3.1 then 3.11 for workgroups now that was a big jump :)
I really miss Office that came on a ton of 3.5" FDD's :)

Ha, a new installation of Windows and Office needed enough disks that you could have played poker with the disks while you were installing them. :D
 
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i'm still on iOS13 on my 6S, and it works so good i didn't bother to update lol. What are the issues?
 
Yup. Over a month on iPadOS 13, and I find so many bugs — small and large.
  • Document picker either slow or not showing files at all (e.g. when uploading a file from Safari)
  • Icons in right corner of the dock not working — they show apps but they don't respond when tapping
  • Photos originals downloading challenges
  • Split view sometimes weirdly squeezes an app
  • Notes not syncing properly
  • Calendar widgets off
  • messages not showing messages sometimes
I use this thing a lot for productivity, but it's a steep regression from iOS 12. And unacceptable for a device that costs well over $ 1000
 
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I think political correctness may be hurting apple’s innovation. Seems these big companies are hiring people based on political correctness v. most qualified. iOS 13 is the outcome.
 
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I think political correctness may be hurting apple’s innovation. Seems these big companies are hiring people based on political correctness v. most qualified. iOS 13 is the outcome.

i don't even want you to elaborate on this because i have a pretty good guess on where will it go, and its gonna end up with one of us being muted
 
I'm afraid that we're back in the two year cycle like iOS 11/12. 11 was a mess, though not as bad as 13. iOS 12 was mostly a great experience and in its later versions ran almost perfectly all the time. I'm wondering if we're going to have to wait until 14 to get 13 actually fixed.
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Ha, a new installation of Windows and Office needed enough disks that you could have played poker with the disks while you were installing them. :D
And half way through office there would be a single disk with a corruption :)
 
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