Entry level Mac Pro Quad-Core or spec'd up New 5K iMac?

[MrXiro]

You can easily and affordably add another 32 GB of RAM later, without taking the stock RAM out.

In contrast, the processor and SSD are expensive, difficult and/or impossible to replace.

I understand that. I meant I could go up to 32 or 64gb of RAM for the extra $200 instead of just going to 16gb from the stock 8gb (I would buy the RAM myself and install), 3rd party RAM is still very pricey for these new iMacs.

But I'm wondering if going i7 is worth the extra $200 now because of what JoeMa2 said. I'm already planning on going with the 512gb SSD over the Fusion drive options. I edit off of external SSDs and I keep my media on externals as well. I have a total of 4 HDDs running at all times (One for Media, One for downloads, One for Time Machine and one for when I archive my FCPX files) and then I plug in the SSD when I edit.

 

[joema2]

Thanks! So in your opinion is it worth it for me to upgrade to the top end i5 iMac from my nMP? I was dead set on the i7 due to the hyper threading but I do enjoy saving money too. The extra 200 could go to more RAM....

In FCPX the i7 makes a major difference. There has been a lot of talk on this forum saying the i7 version of the 2017 iMac 27 is a lot hotter and louder than the i7 version of the 2015 model, and that the cooler, quieter i5 version gives plenty of performance for video editing. I will receive my 2017 iMac 27 i7 this week and will post my test results. I will have both 2015 and 2017 iMac 27 i7 on the same desktop simultaneously. I suggest you wait a couple of weeks before making a decision.

 

[MrXiro]

In FCPX the i7 makes a major difference. There has been a lot of talk on this forum saying the i7 version of the 2017 iMac 27 is a lot hotter and louder than the i7 version of the 2015 model, and that the cooler, quieter i5 version gives plenty of performance for video editing. I will receive my 2017 iMac 27 i7 this week and will post my test results. I will have both 2015 and 2017 iMac 27 i7 on the same desktop simultaneously. I suggest you wait a couple of weeks before making a decision.

I'm waiting for them to have the Back to School Promotion to decide so I'm definitely going to wait for your review! Thanks man! Please let me know when you have a review up!!!

 

[propower]

In FCPX the i7 makes a major difference. There has been a lot of talk on this forum saying the i7 version of the 2017 iMac 27 is a lot hotter and louder than the i7 version of the 2015 model, and that the cooler, quieter i5 version gives plenty of performance for video editing. I will receive my 2017 iMac 27 i7 this week and will post my test results. I will have both 2015 and 2017 iMac 27 i7 on the same desktop simultaneously. I suggest you wait a couple of weeks before making a decision.

Very interested to see your results.

In your experience of the 2015 i7 - did you get the fan ramping above idle much?

 

[joema2]

....In your experience of the 2015 i7 - did you get the fan ramping above idle much?

If I am transcoding video or importing and building LightRoom 1:1 previews from 42 megapixel raw stills, it will definitely ramp up. However it does so much less than my 2015 or 2016 MacBook Pro, both with quad-core i7. Premiere Pro is less efficient than FCPX so just scrubbing a 4k H264 timeline causes the fans to kick on quickly.

I fully understand how someone doing audio work needs a consistently quiet machine. Last week I tested a 12-core nMP D700 and it was amazing from an acoustic and thermal standpoint. But it was just too slow for editing and transcoding H264 video -- Xeon does not have Quick Sync.

As a professional video editor I have at least 80 TB of Thunderbolt RAID arrays attached to my 2015 iMac -- the exact number and capacity varies. I also have a Windows workstation. All those make some noise so the noise of the iMac is just one more item. If all you have is an SSD iMac and maybe an SSD external drive in a quiet room with no HVAC or very quiet HVAC -- yes the fans will sound loud. In my workflow the iMac fans don't kick on that often and when they do it's blended with the other noise.

The fan noise under load is not unique to the iMac 27 i7. My Windows PC has a Noctua NH-D14 CPU cooler, Noctua case fans, and additional slow-turning 200mm case fans tied to a fan controller. Despite this and the big tower box, if under high stress for extended periods it also gets louder. So the idea that the iMac wouldn't get louder under stress if it was a bit thicker is not necessarily correct.

 

[dogbait]

Can backup everything @joema2 said. Unless you need silence, sustained thermal load or more than three displays, the Mac Pro is outclassed in practically every single way by the new iMac.

Just taking raw numbers from Geekbench the new iMac (i7/580 model) is 50% faster than the hex core Mac Pro in single threaded tasks and a whopping 75% faster than the 12 core Mac Pro.

In multi threaded tasks the new iMac is just a hair faster than the hex core MP and 23% slower than the twelve core.

If you have any video tasks which use Intel's QuickSync however you're going to see the new iMac surpass any configuration of the Mac Pro.

As far as GPU performance goes the Radeon 580 in the new iMac is about 33% faster than the Mac Pro's D700 GPU. Admittedly I don't think the Geekbench OpenCL benchmark uses both GPUs in a Mac Pro - but then neither do most apps (zing!).

I say this as a (former) Mac Pro owner (Hex core, 64GB RAM, 1TB SSD, D700s).

It was a wonderful computer and I miss it like hell but the final nail in the coffin for me was 5K display compatibility. Compatible displays are getting scarce nowadays and even if you find one they're a hack, using two cables. They're also a very poor buy if you plan on using them with the new range of Thunderbolt 3 Macbooks or iMacs. Market's moved on, heck Apple's moved on, sell the rig, buy a new iMac 5K. Even the base iMac configuration surpasses your quad core Mac Pro.

 

[MrXiro]

Can backup everything @joema2 said. Unless you need silence, sustained thermal load or more than three displays, the Mac Pro is outclassed in practically every single way by the new iMac.

Just taking raw numbers from Geekbench the new iMac (i7/580 model) is 50% faster than the hex core Mac Pro in single threaded tasks and a whopping 75% faster than the 12 core Mac Pro.

In multi threaded tasks the new iMac is just a hair faster than the hex core MP and 23% slower than the twelve core.

If you have any video tasks which use Intel's QuickSync however you're going to see the new iMac surpass any configuration of the Mac Pro.

As far as GPU performance goes the Radeon 580 in the new iMac is about 33% faster than the Mac Pro's D700 GPU. Admittedly I don't think the Geekbench OpenCL benchmark uses both GPUs in a Mac Pro - but then neither do most apps (zing!).

I say this as a (former) Mac Pro owner (Hex core, 64GB RAM, 1TB SSD, D700s).

It was a wonderful computer and I miss it like hell but the final nail in the coffin for me was 5K display compatibility. Compatible displays are getting scarce nowadays and even if you find one they're a hack, using two cables. They're also a very poor buy if you plan on using them with the new range of Thunderbolt 3 Macbooks or iMacs. Market's moved on, heck Apple's moved on, sell the rig, buy a new iMac 5K. Even the base iMac configuration surpasses your quad core Mac Pro.

Thanks! Now to convince the wife that I need this without her killing me.

 

[propower]

Helpful comments on the i7 - much appreciate this other POV.

I have at least one very busy pro audio guy using the 2017 i7 and not hitting the fans at all - good sign

 

[MrXiro]

If I am transcoding video or importing and building LightRoom 1:1 previews from 42 megapixel raw stills, it will definitely ramp up. However it does so much less than my 2015 or 2016 MacBook Pro, both with quad-core i7. Premiere Pro is less efficient than FCPX so just scrubbing a 4k H264 timeline causes the fans to kick on quickly.

I fully understand how someone doing audio work needs a consistently quiet machine. Last week I tested a 12-core nMP D700 and it was amazing from an acoustic and thermal standpoint. But it was just too slow for editing and transcoding H264 video -- Xeon does not have Quick Sync.

As a professional video editor I have at least 80 TB of Thunderbolt RAID arrays attached to my 2015 iMac -- the exact number and capacity varies. I also have a Windows workstation. All those make some noise so the noise of the iMac is just one more item. If all you have is an SSD iMac and maybe an SSD external drive in a quiet room with no HVAC or very quiet HVAC -- yes the fans will sound loud. In my workflow the iMac fans don't kick on that often and when they do it's blended with the other noise.

The fan noise under load is not unique to the iMac 27 i7. My Windows PC has a Noctua NH-D14 CPU cooler, Noctua case fans, and additional slow-turning 200mm case fans tied to a fan controller. Despite this and the big tower box, if under high stress for extended periods it also gets louder. So the idea that the iMac wouldn't get louder under stress if it was a bit thicker is not necessarily correct.

Have you gotten your iMac?

 

[poematik13]

The 2017 maxed out iMac is definitely faster/better in many ways than the quad core nMP. It's also competitive, speed-wise, with the 6-core nMP as well. But it does have a louder fan and it will run hotter due to the thinner form factor. It also isn't a Xeon so it won't be able to sustain the same load over a longer period of time e.g if you're rendering a vfx-heavy project overnight.

I'm in a similar boat, currently have a 6-core/D500/32GB nMP that has served me very well the past few years and now im debating whether to upgrade it to a 10-core Xeon via OWC ($1400) or just wait till next year for the 2018 Mac Pro and upgrade to that. Given the iMac Pro's 5k starting price, I'm afraid that Apple is going to raise the price for next year's Mac Pro model and it will start at 4-5k, and not the 2.5-3k like mac pros have traditionally been.

I definitely want to jump into TB3 (5K video output, USB 3.1 gen2, etc) so investing anything else into this 2013 model right now would be unwise unless absolutely necessary.

 

[joema2]

Have you gotten your iMac?

Yes, and still doing tests vs my 2015 iMac 27 and comparing to the 12-core Mac Pro I tested recently. The results vary based on what software, but on FCPX it is much faster than the 2015 and even faster than the 12-core Mac Pro D700 for many H264 workflows.

The 2017 iMac 27 i7 is about 2x faster than the 2015 model to transcode 4k H264 long GOP to ProRes proxy, and about 2x faster exporting to 4k H264.

When editing 4k H264 long GOP on a timeline without proxy or optimized media, the viewer frame rate is much faster -- it's hard to quantify and it likely varies with the exact codec variant, but it seems about 3x faster. For the first time on any hardware or editing software I've tested, it's fast enough to edit single camera 4k H264 long GOP without proxy. Editing two-camera 4k H264 multicam on the 2017 is faster than single-cam on the 2015 model.

Compared to the 12-core D700 nMP I tested recently, the 2017 iMac feels much faster on H264 workflows. The nMP still has an advantage if doing ProRes acquisition (so you don't have to transcode) and if maintaining an all-ProRes workflow.

Ironically (despite its faster GPU) the 2017 iMac isn't that much faster than the 2015 on several FCPX effects I tested.

Under heavy CPU load the cooling fan on the 2017 iMac does spin up to 2700 rpm quicker, and the CPU temps eventually reach 95-98C during FCPX transcoding. However for some workloads it is doing twice the throughput, so for me that's an OK tradeoff. My desk is stacked with spinning Thunderbolt drive arrays and they all make noise. For someone doing sustained high-CPU work with only SSD storage in a quiet room, it might bother them.

Other tests:

Neat Video 4.5.5 on 31 sec clip of 4k XAVC-S from Sony A7RII (each optimized using Neat Video config utility for optimal CPU/GPU split):

2013 12-core Mac Pro D700: 6 min 58 sec
2015 iMac 27 i7: 9 min 7 sec
2017 iMac 27 i7: 8 min 3 sec

Digital Anarchy flicker reduction on 12-sec H264 4k from DJI Phantom 4 Pro:

2013 12-core Mac Pro D700: 9 min 6 sec
2015 iMac 27 i7: 9 min 15 sec
2017 iMac 27 i7: 7 min 38 sec

BruceX FCPX benchmark (each average of two runs)

2013 12-core Mac Pro D700: 17.0 sec
2015 iMac 27 i7: 25.8 sec
2017 iMac 27: 15.8 sec

FCPX sharpen effect on 31 sec H264 4k XAVC-S clip, timeline render:

2013 12-core Mac Pro D700: 27.7 sec
Using ProRes optimized media: 12.1 sec

2015 iMac 27 H264: 21.2 sec
2015 iMac 27 ProRes: 24 sec
2017 iMac 27 H264: 20.3 sec
2017 iMac 27 ProRes: 23.8 sec

FCPX aged film effect on 31 sec H264 4k XAVC-S clip, timeline render:

2013 12-core Mac Pro D700: 30.45 sec
Using ProRes optimized: 21.8 sec

2015 iMac 27 H264: 35.3 sec
2015 iMac 27 ProRes: 47.3 sec
2017 iMac 27 H264: 29.8 sec
2017 iMac 27 ProRes: 37.8 sec

 

[MrXiro]

Yes, and still doing tests vs my 2015 iMac 27 and comparing to the 12-core Mac Pro I tested recently. The results vary based on what software, but on FCPX it is much faster than the 2015 and even faster than the 12-core Mac Pro D700 for many H264 workflows.

The 2017 iMac 27 i7 is about 2x faster than the 2015 model to transcode 4k H264 long GOP to ProRes proxy, and about 2x faster exporting to 4k H264.

When editing 4k H264 long GOP on a timeline without proxy or optimized media, the viewer frame rate is much faster -- it's hard to quantify and it likely varies with the exact codec variant, but it seems about 3x faster. For the first time on any hardware or editing software I've tested, it's fast enough to edit single camera 4k H264 long GOP without proxy. Editing two-camera 4k H264 multicam on the 2017 is faster than single-cam on the 2015 model.

Compared to the 12-core D700 nMP I tested recently, the 2017 iMac feels much faster on H264 workflows. The nMP still has an advantage if doing ProRes acquisition (so you don't have to transcode) and if maintaining an all-ProRes workflow.

Ironically (despite its faster GPU) the 2017 iMac isn't that much faster than the 2015 on several FCPX effects I tested.

Under heavy CPU load the cooling fan on the 2017 iMac does spin up to 2700 rpm quicker, and the CPU temps eventually reach 95-98C during FCPX transcoding. However for some workloads it is doing twice the throughput, so for me that's an OK tradeoff. My desk is stacked with spinning Thunderbolt drive arrays and they all make noise. For someone doing sustained high-CPU work with only SSD storage in a quiet room, it might bother them.

Other tests:

Neat Video 4.5.5 on 31 sec clip of 4k XAVC-S from Sony A7RII (each optimized using Neat Video config utility for optimal CPU/GPU split):

2013 12-core Mac Pro D700: 6 min 58 sec
2015 iMac 27 i7: 9 min 7 sec
2017 iMac 27 i7: 8 min 3 sec

Digital Anarchy flicker reduction on 12-sec H264 4k from DJI Phantom 4 Pro:

2013 12-core Mac Pro D700: 9 min 6 sec
2015 iMac 27 i7: 9 min 15 sec
2017 iMac 27 i7: 7 min 38 sec

BruceX FCPX benchmark (each average of two runs)

2013 12-core Mac Pro D700: 17.0 sec
2015 iMac 27 i7: 25.8 sec
2017 iMac 27: 15.8 sec

FCPX sharpen effect on 31 sec H264 4k XAVC-S clip, timeline render:

2013 12-core Mac Pro D700: 27.7 sec
Using ProRes optimized media: 12.1 sec

2015 iMac 27 H264: 21.2 sec
2015 iMac 27 ProRes: 24 sec
2017 iMac 27 H264: 20.3 sec
2017 iMac 27 ProRes: 23.8 sec

FCPX aged film effect on 31 sec H264 4k XAVC-S clip, timeline render:

2013 12-core Mac Pro D700: 30.45 sec
Using ProRes optimized: 21.8 sec

2015 iMac 27 H264: 35.3 sec
2015 iMac 27 ProRes: 47.3 sec
2017 iMac 27 H264: 29.8 sec
2017 iMac 27 ProRes: 37.8 sec

Thanks for all the info!!!