Espresso Enthusiasts

[Shrink]

Not that anybody asked...but a few random thoughts on grinders.

As with all things coffee, there are always varying opinions on any aspect of making coffee. There are many posters on this thread who know more than I do about equipment, and I fervently hope they will post disagreements and corrections to my screed below.

First, and this in NOT debatable...no blade (chopper) "grinders. None! Never! The only thing blade "grinders" do really well is ruin coffee beans, and destroy coffee produced therefrom.

The importance of the grinder...there is no such thing as overkill with a grinder. Buy the best one that you can afford. Of all the elements that go into making coffee, especially espresso, in descending order, are the beans, the grinder, proper tamping, and the espresso machine. (Good water fits in there somewhere, too!) Second only to the beans, the grinder is the most important element in the mix. Aside from giving you the freshest coffee possible from your beans, it allows you to make the necessary adjustments to maximize the the output from your particular machine using that particular blend or single origin bean

Things to look for in the grinder (I need help with this and I'm sure other contributors will be able to add other specs to seek)...

Doser vs doserless...I am strongly biased toward doserless grinders. With that configuration, you know that you will grind only the exact amount that you will need, and not leave any behind in the dower bin to go stale. While whole beans, properly stored, should be good for about a week before becoming noticeably stale, ground coffee goes stale in minutes. So if grounds are left in the dower bin, you get stale tasting coffee at your next production. If you empty the bin...coffee is wasted. A serious crime! Doserless grinders make much more of a mess (grinds on the counter), but that is endemic to making coffee...you pay for your kicks!

RPM rating...go for the slowest rpm's you can find in a machine within your budget. Higher rpm's produce more heat...the enemy of your beans (along with light, air, and moisture). Many good machines turn at 1000-12000rpms. Look for something lower if you can. Newer models are paying attention to this issue, and even less expensive, starter grinders can be found with speeds around 450 rpms. This is not your hot car, where you want a nice high redline...slower is better!

Number of grinder settings...the more, the better. Some grinders have "click less" setting ring, which gives you total control to make the finest adjustments. If you are making anything except espresso, the number of grinder settings is less important...but 15 or more is desirable. If you are using the grinder for espresso, I'd suggest at least 25 settings is desirable. The more the settings, the finer and more subtle the adjustments available to maximize meeting the needs of your machine and getting the best your machine can produce.

Lower on the list is burr size. The bigger the burrs the better. It reduces grinding time and produces less heat.

An airtight bean bin (or as close to airtight as you can get), is desirable. Since most people don't weigh their dose, you'll probably have more beans in the bin than you you use for any one production. That means that the beans will sit in the grinder bin for a while...exposed to air (air bad!). So a well sealed bin will keep your beans as fresh as possible while awaiting the next time you make coffee.

Good maintenance...After each use, a quick brushing of the easily available parts is a good idea (there's that mess again!). I suggest using Grindz to clean the burrs of retained grinds and oils, once a week...depending on how often your grinder is used. (Some folks use rice for this cleaning. Nothing wrong with it, but I think it leaves behind some starches which you don't need) And a serious take-apart cleaning should be done with a frequency recommended in you user manual. Don't be lazy...keeping it clean makes a difference...and more mess!

OK...that's al I can think of at the moment. I'm sure that there are more suggestions and recommendation that other contributors will add...and please correct me if I went wrong somewhere.

 

[S.B.G]

Very nice post on grinders. Perhaps, if you will, you could also speak about grinder settings and how many a grinder should have and the effect of them have on the coffee.

 

[Shrink]

Very nice post on grinders. Perhaps, if you will, you could also speak about grinder settings and how many a grinder should have and the effect of them have on the coffee.

Thanks for the great suggestion, Mate!

I added a few words on grinder settings to the original post.

And now off to pull a double shot as a self reward!

 

[Kurwenal]

Not that anybody asked...but a few random thoughts on grinders.

Hey, Shrink, can you please post some random thoughts on grinders?

Buy the best one that you can afford.

I'll quibble with this: buy a better one than you can afford. OK, that's an overstatement, obviously, but it makes the point. Better to save your schekles for 6 months and get something really good than buy something cheap now.

[/B]. Of all the elements that go into making coffee, especially espresso, in descending order, are the beans, the grinder, proper tamping, and the espresso machine. (Good water fits in there somewhere, too!) Second only to the beans, the grinder is the most important element in the mix.

I would put the grinder first. Seriously. A crappy grinder will ruin superior beans to a greater extent than a superior grinder will ruin crappy beans.

Doser vs doserless...I am strongly biased toward doserless grinders. With that configuration, you know that you will grind only the exact amount that you will need, and not leave any behind in the dower bin to go stale. While whole beans, properly stored, should be good for about a week before becoming noticeably stale, ground coffee goes stale in minutes.

Grind just what you need, is the point I think. If you have a bin, don't use it. If there is coffee leftover after you grind and pull, throw it away (or, do what I do and dump it into your garden).

Somewhere along the journey I read about the "Rule of 15s" and I follow it. Green coffee should be roasted within 15 months. Roasted coffee should be used within 15 days (I rarely go over 6 or 7). Ground coffee should be used within 15 minutes of grinding.

Very nice post on grinders.

Hear hear!

Perhaps, if you will, you could also speak about grinder settings and how many a grinder should have and the effect of them have on the coffee.

A grinder with unlimited settings is best (y'all are going to start to think I own stock in Mazer....I don't....but......). But, more important than the number of settings is to actually use them, by testing your batch. The only way to dial in a grinder for a particular batch is to grind and run it through your maker and watch (and drink) the results. I never cease to be amazed by this; the same Sweet Maria's green, roasted the identical way, will require a very different Mazer setting over time. You might waste a few shots as you consider the setting every few days (or just turn them into americano's, perfectly acceptable), but figuring out the "right" setting and then never changing it again is most certainly a way to leave some flavor on the cutting room floor.

Why does this matter? Ultimately, the game is to get the freshest coffee and then obsess about everything that impacts how and where and when and for how long the coffee touches the water. The grind is one of the (and maybe the) #1 variable that you can control in terms of this equation. Try this: grind up a shot using whatever setting you use for french roast, but make a shot. Taste it. Why does it suck? Because you just denied the water the ability to touch most of the grind. The particles are simply too big and the water misses most of the coffee. There is a sweet spot for every bean; to have truly superior espresso, your job is to find that sweet spot. And, just when you have it figured out, the sweet spot will move, because of the humidity or a tiny little bit more oil in the beans, or because your 4 year old hit your machine with a ball.

But, the taste of the perfect shot makes it all worth it.

 

[Shrink]

Hey, Shrink, can you please post some random thoughts on grinders?



I'll quibble with this: buy a better one than you can afford. OK, that's an overstatement, obviously, but it makes the point. Better to save your schekles for 6 months and get something really good than buy something cheap now.



I would put the grinder first. Seriously. A crappy grinder will ruin superior beans to a greater extent than a superior grinder will ruin crappy beans.



Grind just what you need, is the point I think. If you have a bin, don't use it. If there is coffee leftover after you grind and pull, throw it away (or, do what I do and dump it into your garden).

Somewhere along the journey I read about the "Rule of 15s" and I follow it. Green coffee should be roasted within 15 months. Roasted coffee should be used within 15 days (I rarely go over 6 or 7). Ground coffee should be used within 15 minutes of grinding.

Hear hear!



A grinder with unlimited settings is best (y'all are going to start to think I own stock in Mazer....I don't....but......). But, more important than the number of settings is to actually use them, by testing your batch. The only way to dial in a grinder for a particular batch is to grind and run it through your maker and watch (and drink) the results. I never cease to be amazed by this; the same Sweet Maria's green, roasted the identical way, will require a very different Mazer setting over time. You might waste a few shots as you consider the setting every few days (or just turn them into americano's, perfectly acceptable), but figuring out the "right" setting and then never changing it again is most certainly a way to leave some flavor on the cutting room floor.

Why does this matter? Ultimately, the game is to get the freshest coffee and then obsess about everything that impacts how and where and when and for how long the coffee touches the water. The grind is one of the (and maybe the) #1 variable that you can control in terms of this equation. Try this: grind up a shot using whatever setting you use for french roast, but make a shot. Taste it. Why does it suck? Because you just denied the water the ability to touch most of the grind. The particles are simply too big and the water misses most of the coffee. There is a sweet spot for every bean; to have truly superior espresso, your job is to find that sweet spot. And, just when you have it figured out, the sweet spot will move, because of the humidity or a tiny little bit more oil in the beans, or because your 4 year old hit your machine with a ball.

But, the taste of the perfect shot makes it all worth it.

First...thanks for the great post!

You wonderful explanation of the importance of adjusting your grinder for each batch of beans is terrific! It certainly is my experience that each batch I roast requires some adjustment...notwithstanding that the blend is the same and the roast is close to the previous one.

I will cavil at your point that the grinder is more important than the beans. While I completely agree that a crappy grinder will decrease the ability of your machine to produce it's best possible output, let me offer the following...

A super grinder cannot improve bad beans, only make the best coffee possible with bad beans...which is bad coffee. My logic is simple (as is my mind...so it all works out!)...GIGO. Put crappy beans in a $5,000 espresso machine, ground by a $3,000 grinder...and you still get crappy coffee.

That's why I think the beans are just above the grinder on the list of importance.

 

[Kurwenal]

A super grinder cannot improve bad beans, only make the best coffee possible with bad beans...which is bad coffee. My logic is simple (as is my mind...so it all works out!)...GIGO. Put crappy beans in a $5,000 espresso machine, ground by a $3,000 grinder...and you still get crappy coffee.

True, but I can make the same statement, equally true, by just switching a few words:

A super coffee cannot improve a bad grind, only make the best coffee possible with a bad grind....which is bad coffee....Put the best coffee on earth in a $5,000 espresso machine, ground by a $100 grinder...and you still get crappy coffee.

I would not want to drink either example, yours or mine, is the point I think (and I'm sure you agree). Of course, both are critical and required. But, here's the two (real) reasons I list the grinder first: First, it is harder to fix. Bad coffee? Just go buy better coffee. It will cost you $20 by mail order or $16 local. Bad grinder? Well, you need to go spend at least $700. So, for me, "most important" has a loss avoidance (or "improvement" cost) value component as well. Second, it helps to emphasize the grinder's importance, which I think surprises a lot of new pullers. Fresh, quality beans? Easy to understand. But, the roaster is harder to understand and, coupled with the high(er) cost, pushes an unfortunately large group of pullers into bad decisions.

 

[Shrink]

True, but I can make the same statement, equally true, by just switching a few words:

A super coffee cannot improve a bad grind, only make the best coffee possible with a bad grind....which is bad coffee....Put the best coffee on earth in a $5,000 espresso machine, ground by a $100 grinder...and you still get crappy coffee.

I would not want to drink either example, yours or mine, is the point I think (and I'm sure you agree). Of course, both are critical and required. But, here's the two (real) reasons I list the grinder first: First, it is harder to fix. Bad coffee? Just go buy better coffee. It will cost you $20 by mail order or $16 local. Bad grinder? Well, you need to go spend at least $700. So, for me, "most important" has a loss avoidance (or "improvement" cost) value component as well. Second, it helps to emphasize the grinder's importance, which I think surprises a lot of new pullers. Fresh, quality beans? Easy to understand. But, the roaster is harder to understand and, coupled with the high(er) cost, pushes an unfortunately large group of pullers into bad decisions.

I can't disagree with your argument as stated...and completely agree either a bad grinder or bad beans are to be avoided if at all possible.

I was speaking broadly about beans vs grinder in order of importance...your assertion that it is easier to change beans than change grinder is well taken. And emphasizing the importance of the grinder to a new puller is also of foremost importance.

I will take small issue with your assertion that one must spend $700 for a grinder first crack out of the box. (Get it...first crack...OK, sorry, I'm not a totally well person). While I agree that as one goes from a beginner to a more advanced coffee maven, upgrading equipment will inevitably happen, and that ultimately one will likely go to the $700+ range. I hope you will agree that for a newbie, just learning espresso production, there is no issue with starting with a less expensive grinder. I know that quality will be lost with a "starter" grinder, but if I were advising a newbie, I would suggest spending as much as one can afford for a grinder, but would stop short of saying that anything less than a $700+ grinder is not a place to start.

And also the point should be made, although it is belaboring the obvious, that not everyone can afford a $700 grinder, and I would not want to discourage anyone from pursuing better coffee production just because that can't spring for the top grade equipment. (Having said that, I couldn't really afford the grinder I have when I boughtit!)

 

[Kurwenal]

It's hard to disagree with someone who is so reasonable, so I won't.

I think I probably would recommend a higher level of investment to new pullers than you would, but your points are well taken. The discussion is how to spend "play money" or "hobby money," which should be spent only after the bills are paid, the savings account is fattened, the investment accounts are topped off, the emergency fund is checked. Obviously, someone should not buy anything they cannot afford (I owe no one, anywhere, so much as a dime, but that's a different subject), even if it does say "Mazer" on it.

Let me change the direction of the discussion a bit. What is it about coffee? I am addicted, true, but it is an addiction I welcome, even when I have worked very hard to give up other addictions. Why? Why is coffee so comforting? Chemicals in the blood, reactions in the brain, caffeine, memories of friends sitting around a good coffee. For me, it is my comfort food. Why? I collect wine and wine is an incredibly important part of my life. But, I told one of my best friends recently (while we were sitting at a wine auction) that I now prefer coffee to wine. I do. Give me a choice, you can take my wine before my coffee. And that is a shocking thing for me to realize.

I love coffee. I really do. More than wine, more than opera, more than OS X (well, maybe not more than my iPad, that's a closer call).

 

[Shrink]

It's hard to disagree with someone who is so reasonable, so I won't.

I think I probably would recommend a higher level of investment to new pullers than you would, but your points are well taken. The discussion is how to spend "play money" or "hobby money," which should be spent only after the bills are paid, the savings account is fattened, the investment accounts are topped off, the emergency fund is checked. Obviously, someone should not buy anything they cannot afford (I owe no one, anywhere, so much as a dime, but that's a different subject), even if it does say "Mazer" on it.

Let me change the direction of the discussion a bit. What is it about coffee? I am addicted, true, but it is an addiction I welcome, even when I have worked very hard to give up other addictions. Why? Why is coffee so comforting? Chemicals in the blood, reactions in the brain, caffeine, memories of friends sitting around a good coffee. For me, it is my comfort food. Why? I collect wine and wine is an incredibly important part of my life. But, I told one of my best friends recently (while we were sitting at a wine auction) that I now prefer coffee to wine. I do. Give me a choice, you can take my wine before my coffee. And that is a shocking thing for me to realize.

I love coffee. I really do. More than wine, more than opera, more than OS X (well, maybe not more than my iPad, that's a closer call).

Back in the day (when I was married to a lady making a lot of money) I collected wine, too. I can completely understand your love of wine. After things...er...changed, I had to make a choice between the wine and the coffee, and I went for the coffee. All of the things you mentioned about the emotional and physiological aspects of coffee are wonderful observations. I think that, in addition to those you mentioned, the whole process of roasting, preparing, and even cleaning, are part of the joy of coffee for me. It is a programmed, over learned, somewhat ritualized set of behaviors that gives me pleasure. The only comparison I can make it to the Japanese tea rituals...about which I know little, but have seen performed and have enjoyed watching. That reminds me a bit of the coffee "rituals".

 

[mobilehaathi]

Ok friends, I refuse to believe that without spending $700 on a grinder that my beans will be 'destroyed.' This is hyperbole. Let's at least agree that there is a gradation of 'bad to good' grinding and that there isn't merely a binary classification. When I retire, independently wealthy, at 31, I'll be in a much better place to snap up a top-of-the-line grinder. But until that day (oh and it will come, academia is nothing if not mint for millionaires), I'm going to have to start lower on the pole.

That said, yes I'm well aware I've been hacking my poor beans to death for a while now. With that in mind, and a bit of extra cash on hand, I just ordered the Baratza Encore grinder.

Espresso machine still on the docket for January.

 

[S.B.G]

That said, yes I'm well aware I've been hacking my poor beans to death for a while now. With that in mind, and a bit of extra cash on hand, I just ordered the Baratza Encore grinder.

Great! I'm sure you'll be happy with it as I am despite it being a low-cost entry grinder. Did you also get the Baratza PortaHolder for Portafilters accessory?

 

[mobilehaathi]

Great! I'm sure you'll be happy with it as I am despite it being a low-cost entry grinder. Did you also get the Baratza PortaHolder for Portafilters accessory?

I didn't, but I might later if it is too much of a pain always transferring grounds to my filter. Presumably this is largely for convenience?

 

[Shrink]

I didn't, but I might later if it is too much of a pain always transferring grounds to my filter. Presumably this is largely for convenience?

Get what you can, Mate. Anything that gets you to a better place in coffee making is great, IMO! I certainly didn't start with an high end grinder...just slowly moved up over the years.

I also strongly suggest that you go for the accessory mentioned in SBG's post. It allows you to grind directly into you portafilter, and thereby grinding only the exact amount you need. Much more efficient than grinding into a bin, no wasted grinds that need to be dumped.

 

[mobilehaathi]

Get what you can, Mate. Anything that gets you to a better place in coffee making is great, IMO! I certainly didn't start with an high end grinder...just slowly moved up over the years.

I also strongly suggest that you go for the accessory mentioned in SBG's post. It allows you to grind directly into you portafilter, and thereby grinding only the exact amount you need. Much more efficient than grinding into a bin, no wasted grinds that need to be dumped.

Oh don't worry, I don't buy stuff I can't afford. I do happen to have a scale, and (obviously) wasn't planning to grind more that what I was going to immediately use.

Well I'll keep it on the list.

 

[Shrink]

Oh don't worry, I don't buy stuff I can't afford. I do happen to have a scale, and (obviously) wasn't planning to grind more that what I was going to immediately use.

Well I'll keep it on the list.

Just a suggestion on weighing your dose...

The grinder will retain some of the grinds, and how much it retains will vary by blend, roast, and environment conditions...especially humidity. So if you want 18 grams in your filter basket, you may have to put 19 or 20 grams into the grinder. A little experimenting will help determine the amount of retention you are getting at a particular time, with a particular blend and roast.

During the summer, when the is some humidity in my house, I get zero retention in my grinder...17 grams in, 17 grams out But during the cold weather, when my heat is on (forced hot air...makes my place as dry as Death Valley) I get more retention in the grinder. Right now, with the blend and roast I'm using, I have to put a bit more in the grinder to get the 17 grams dose, which it what I need for my filter basket.

 

[Kurwenal]

Ok friends, I refuse to believe that without spending $700 on a grinder that my beans will be 'destroyed.' This is hyperbole. Let's at least agree that there is a gradation of 'bad to good' grinding and that there isn't merely a binary classification.

No, no, it's true: $699: destroyed. $701: perfect ($700 works half the time, the other half: destroyed). And, not only that, when you start roasting, you cannot rely on the spinning motion to move the beans. You have to stop the drum and go in every minute and individually rotate the beans, with your fingers. Yes, you will get burned, but are you dedicated or not?

Just wait until we get on to tamping. You do, I assume, go in an individually arrange the grounds?

(PS: as I said in a previous post, the grinder Mr. Mod posted a page or two back is a great choice. Go with that one and you will be fine.)

(PPS: For a while. )

 

[mobilehaathi]

Cheers! Well it should arrive on Wednesday, so I'll let you all know how my first cup is with a proper grind. Oh, and I'll be sure to run a batch of bad beans through first.

 

[Shrink]

No, no, it's true: $699: destroyed. $701: perfect ($700 works half the time, the other half: destroyed). And, not only that, when you start roasting, you cannot rely on the spinning motion to move the beans. You have to stop the drum and go in every minute and individually rotate the beans, with your fingers. Yes, you will get burned, but are you dedicated or not?

Just wait until we get on to tamping. You do, I assume, go in an individually arrange the grounds?

(PS: as I said in a previous post, the grinder Mr. Mod posted a page or two back is a great choice. Go with that one and you will be fine.)

(PPS: For a while. )

Sure...sure...make light of my burned fingers, Mr. Smartypants.

Joke if you will...but my roasts are better than your roasts!

And as far as the pre-tamp individual grounds particle arranging...how else do you gat an even tamp!?

Cheers! Well it should arrive on Wednesday, so I'll let you all know how my first cup is with a proper grind. Oh, and I'll be sure to run a batch of bad beans through first.

Mazel Tov, Mate!

Enjoy your new toys!

Keep us posted!

 

[mobilehaathi]

Just a suggestion on weighing your dose...

The grinder will retain some of the grinds, and how much it retains will vary by blend, roast, and environment conditions...especially humidity. So if you want 18 grams in your filter basket, you may have to put 19 or 20 grams into the grinder. A little experimenting will help determine the amount of retention you are getting at a particular time, with a particular blend and roast.

During the summer, when the is some humidity in my house, I get zero retention in my grinder...17 grams in, 17 grams out But during the cold weather, when my heat is on (forced hot air...makes my place as dry as Death Valley) I get more retention in the grinder. Right now, with the blend and roast I'm using, I have to put a bit more in the grinder to get the 17 grams dose, which it what I need for my filter basket.

I actually love fiddling with these things! I'll probably end up with a spreadsheet, beans on rows, months on columns, with the gram offset at the points.

 

[Kurwenal]

arrive on Wednesday

Congratulations.

I actually love fiddling with these things! I'll probably end up with a spreadsheet, beans on rows, months on columns, with the gram offset at the points.

Oh, you are doomed. Just doomed.

 

[S.B.G]

I need some coffee. Does anyone else want a cup? ☕

 

[tbayrgs]

Tons of great advice regarding getting started and grinders--cannot agree more that the grinder is the most important piece of equipment. Shrink and Kurwenal are spot on with their advice and suggestions. I'll pile on and help beat this dead horse--give me a high quality grinder paired with an cheap, inexpensive espresso machine and I'll have far better results in the cup than if using a subpar grinder with the best commercial espresso machine.

That's not to say you have to spend huge amounts of money on a grinder--you can still get very good results with some of the more inexpensive models, especially those from Baratza. I'll concur with Kurwenal in this regard--if you can afford $XXX to spend on a grinder now, bite the bullet and wait a bit longer, save up to get at least the next best option. The variance in performance changes dramatically within just a few hundred $ at the low end and will make your coffee experience a bit less frustrating and more enjoyable. Remember, that grinder can serve you well for many years when taken care of properly so while that extra few hundred may seem like a lot now, over the course of say, 5 years, you may be talking about $3-5/month.

Just a little more food for though.

 

[Kurwenal]

I need some coffee. Does anyone else want a cup? ☕

Great idea. Unfortunately, I am on the road without many options, so it may be from a chain....

Just a little more food for though.

And coffee for the cup!

 

[Shrink]

Great idea. Unfortunately, I am on the road without many options, so it may be from a chain....

You have my deepest concern and condolences...especially if the only chain available is Starbucks!

I will think of you whilst drinking my freshly pulled double.

Oh, dear...I probably shouldn't have said that...I really wouldn't want you to feel bad or that I'm rubbing it in.





Much....

 

[mobilehaathi]

Well it seems the coffee gods got fed up with my awful grinding habits and conspired to have my new grinder arrive a day early!

Dripping a cup as I type...