EU Chief Calls on Apple CEO Tim Cook to Open Hardware and Software Ecosystem

[Sophisticatednut]

Browsers are the most vulnerable entry points for hacking, so it's not an "artifical protection", but I think that Chrome and Edge have more than 90% of the market.

Browser aren’t the most vulnerable, any social media or mail that allows social engineering is the most vulnerable today.

And honestly chrome and edge is the same browser fundamentally. And I can’t see why anything should be done if they had 99% market share if it’s the consumers choice?

 

[techwhiz]

I find it amazing that people here poo poo USB-C but for high power and power delivery, USB-C is what Apple has been using on laptops and iPads and iPhones. The wall charger to rapid charge an iPad and iPhone has been USB-C for years and it's only the connector at the device that was not.

As far as side loading; that doesn't make anyone's device inherently less secure unless they use the feature. So like Android and make the user explicitly enable the feature when they want to side load.

It's installing software just like on a Mac.

 

[eifelbube]

I think the bigger picture is more concerning.

Let the consumer choose, if you want to live in Apple's ecosystem that is up to then, if you want to go elsewhere thats up to you. It's called freedom. The EU is entirely against the concept and more and more laws are destroying innovation, liberty and ultimately making people more stupid. It's the heavy down, heavy handed approach that more laws mean's better, it doesn't. What we want it less laws but higher quality laws, and people free to pick where they put their hard earned (and often very little left of) money.

What is innovative about making it impossible for the user to upgrade the SSD in the M processor Macs?

 

[jz0309]

So if I read this right, they met and afterwards this guy made these comments.
I interpret that as Tim showing him the finger - good for you Tim!

 

[subjonas]

EU industry chief Thierry Breton today publicly called on Apple CEO Tim Cook to open the company's ecosystem of hardware and software to rivals (via Reuters).

Opening up software—it’s pretty obvious what that means (plus there are examples in the article). But what does opening up hardware mean? Use an Android case on an iPhone?

 

[KPOM]

Well I would actually recommend you read the legislation. First of it was mandated as law. The specification EN 62684:2010 was active from 2009 to 2014… and has since been withdrawn as obsolete

And if you knew the details you would also be aware that the requirement was removed in 2014 the same year USB-c was released. And the exact same thing can happen with this current law the moment a new port is launched as it specifically states the requirements of the regulations will be
Continually revisited:

…the Commission is empowered to adopt delegated acts in accordance with Article 44 to amend Part I of Annex Ia in the light of scientific and technological progress or market developments…



Well such assertions are supported by?

Whatever. But companies have no incentive to move the needle.

 

[KPOM]

I guess I just miss the days when tech people resented the idea of being told what they can and cannot install on their own computers (which an iPhone is). 🤷‍♂️

I don’t miss the days of worrying about viruses. iOS is virtually virus free.

 

[svish]

Wonder how much Apple will be forced to change.

 

[iBluetooth]

Browser aren’t the most vulnerable, any social media or mail that allows social engineering is the most vulnerable today.

And honestly chrome and edge is the same browser fundamentally. And I can’t see why anything should be done if they had 99% market share if it’s the consumers choice?

That's why I included Chrome and Edge together because they both include the Chrome browser engine. Browsers are running untested code from other sites and programmers, and they run before you can look at the code. That's why browsers are so vulnerable and most social engineering directs the users to the browsers to go to sites that run malicious code. So, why are you stating that browsers are not vulnerable?

 

[bluecoast]

Literally no one with a fifth grade education believes this.




Translation: European businesses aren't competitive due to the regulations we crushed them under, so now we must crush others to bring them down to our level.

Only the EU and a few other countries will get browser and App Store choice (initially). If you're in the USA, don't worry. And it's not worth getting angry about something that won't even affect you.

Until people realise that they like the choice that they have in the EU and there is increasing clamour to have it in the USA too...

It's true that the EU missed the boat on the smartphone revolution - like RIM, Nokia was making a tonne of money on handsets and failed to innovate.

But it wasn't regulation that caused Nokia to fai.

Just like RIM, they did it to themselves, by failing to innovate.

And true, Europe was pretty bad at grasping the Internet and the web. I'm not sure why, I'm sure that there's a book needing to be written about that.

As to European companies being crushed by regulation...

Along with Boeing, Airbus (France) is a major global player in making commercial aeroplanes.

Germany and Italy's car industry wasn't too shabby the last I looked.

France is a global leader in making nuclear power stations.

Ericson and Nokia are both world leaders in mobile telecommunications infrastructure.

Denmark has LEGO. Sweden has IKEA.

There's probably loads of other companies and industries that I haven't even mentioned or thought of too.

The EU is doing OK despite all of that regulation.

 

[bluecoast]

People are being too blinkered in their view on this. The mobile phone has become more than just a mobile phone, it has now become a device that in most part is an essential part of how society functions which means the iphone goes way beyond just being a mobile phone. Companies of all nature are now requiring people to install company app's on their phone. Medical services, utility companies, banks, retailers, local authorities, it is becoming increasing difficult to live and work in today's society without the use of a mobile phone. Therefore as a result, due to it's importance in today's society, it cannot be a closed system controlled only by one company who can do as it pleases.

This attitude/behavior might be ok in the US, it certainly is not in the EU, hence why the EU is asking for Apple to be more open.

That was a great succinct summary of the issue - thanks!

 

[bluecoast]

Just build your EU phone and leave us alone. Apple is not a monopoly it just makes its own environment, if you don’t like it build your own.

You do realise that if Apple pulled out of the EU, its share price would tank?

The EU is the 2nd most important market for Apple outside of the Americas - basically USA and Canada.

It's hugely stable and is home to 500m people.

It also respects law and engages with companies like Apple, giving them years and years of notice if there is regulation that might affect them. It has a different conception as to what law is and what the state should do.

But don't confuse that with it being 'wrong' and the USA being 'right'. It's just different for very good historical reasons.

Compare this with other democracies like India, which will suddenly enact laws giving weeks notice or even just change things overnight. And it can be even worse in countries that are less than democratic.

The world is a less stable place than you might think and if a USA tech giant has any hope of being a global giant, the EU is a necessary and important part of this.

 

[bluecoast]

I’m sure Apple is right that the issue really is security and privacy, and it’s just a coincidence that this arrangement lets them take a chunk of their competitors’ margins and decide what types of apps you can and cannot install on a device you paid for.

In the same way that Apple chose Google as the default search engine was the right thing to do for its users.

And the rumoured US $6b that Google pay them per year, has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[bluecoast]

My only complaint about iOS being closed is the restriction on third party web browsers using their own rendering engine. That some EU bureaucrat says, “EU regulation fosters innovation, without compromising on security and privacy”, with a straight face is honestly humorous or maybe scary. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I personally have no desire to have additional App Stores to use in iOS, I tried that on Android and honestly thought that it sucked. I hope that Apple can allow that in a way that does not impact those of us who don’t use it at all.

People have Safari, Chrome etc. on their Macs and things are OK.

The issue is the permissions that Apple gives apps to do and the general security hardening of the systems underneath that.

True, the iPhone is a larger attack vector than the Mac - but again, Apple are very experienced in allowing third party software on the Mac and I fail to see how they can't apply those learnings to iOS/iPadOS.

 

[bluecoast]

Ah!!!

EU and UK!!

Great regulators!!!

Amazing stuff.

For over a decade they took dirty money from the Russians, Emirates and China.

They sold millions of residential properties to the criminal dirty money launderers in China and Singapore.

EU and UK citizens are paying rent to these criminals.

All the money flowing out of the pockets of poor EU and UK renters into offshore bank accounts owned by anonymous criminals.

Shell companies run by criminals own so much of EU and UK.

And now these same politicians want your devices and digital data to become victim to the same "OPENNESS".

True, but I think that there's probably a lot of corruption going in in the USA too and I bet you don't even have to look too hard.

 

[bluecoast]

Sometimes the EU really does a policing the US is incapable of (like on privacy and forcing Apple to adopt USB) but sometimes the EU reeks of envy. The EU will never have a significant role in the digital markets by regulating the hell out of it (which the representatives in Brussels seem to think is their only job) but instead by fostering innovation across borders.

Some EU successes? ARM (no longer in the EU but still), ArchiCAD (look it up, it is a wonderful story of a company born behind the iron curtain..) and many more. But the EU representatives should stop seeking the spotlight by attacking US companies without merit and concentrate more on fostering the EU innovation.

Just going to correct you a little here. ARM was a British company and I think still has a huge amount of its employees in the UK.

It's more a failure of the UK government to help give ARM what it needed and to recognise how important mobile chips where going to be.

Where the USA gives subsides to its many of its key industries to help them (an inconvenient truth for those that think that the success of US companies is all about a free market).

Also it's the UK's attitude to buying British companies that let ARM be bought be SoftBank (Japanese).

Whereas the US is pretty hostile to any foreign ownership of its key companies (I'm not saying that that is a bad thing btw).

 

[bluecoast]

That's convenient when the "Gatekeeper Status" has been carefully and arbitrarily crafted to only apply to non-EU companies.

That actually isn't true if you look at the Gatekeeper status list.

 

[bluecoast]

Well I would actually recommend you read the legislation. First of it was mandated as law. The specification EN 62684:2010 was active from 2009 to 2014… and has since been withdrawn as obsolete

And if you knew the details you would also be aware that the requirement was removed in 2014 the same year USB-c was released. And the exact same thing can happen with this current law the moment a new port is launched as it specifically states the requirements of the regulations will be
Continually revisited:

…the Commission is empowered to adopt delegated acts in accordance with Article 44 to amend Part I of Annex Ia in the light of scientific and technological progress or market developments…



Well such assertions are supported by?

Thank you for your fact based arguments

 

[jdawgnoonan]

People have Safari, Chrome etc. on their Macs and things are OK.

The issue is the permissions that Apple gives apps to do and the general security hardening of the systems underneath that.

True, the iPhone is a larger attack vector than the Mac - but again, Apple are very experienced in allowing third party software on the Mac and I fail to see how they can't apply those learnings to iOS/iPadOS.

I am not against what the EU is doing, and I really would like all of the browsers on iOS to not be Safari in disguise. But, when an EU bureaucrat makes a statement about technology that they are not qualified to make and speaks like they believe that they have real authority in the subject it is honestly funny or frightening. Apple knows more about IT Security than the bureaucrat. So therefore, when Apple winds up supporting third party app markets on iOS that is great, I just hope that if a user like me opts out of using third party stores that I will not be impacted by the security holes that the EU bureaucrats forced them to open. I have used third party markets on Android and the experience for me was not worth the security risks.

 

[bcortens]

Only the EU and a few other countries will get browser and App Store choice (initially). If you're in the USA, don't worry. And it's not worth getting angry about something that won't even affect you.

Until people realise that they like the choice that they have in the EU and there is increasing clamour to have it in the USA too...

It's true that the EU missed the boat on the smartphone revolution - like RIM, Nokia was making a tonne of money on handsets and failed to innovate.

But it wasn't regulation that caused Nokia to fai.

Just like RIM, they did it to themselves, by failing to innovate.

And true, Europe was pretty bad at grasping the Internet and the web. I'm not sure why, I'm sure that there's a book needing to be written about that.

As to European companies being crushed by regulation...

Along with Boeing, Airbus (France) is a major global player in making commercial aeroplanes.

Germany and Italy's car industry wasn't too shabby the last I looked.

France is a global leader in making nuclear power stations.

Ericson and Nokia are both world leaders in mobile telecommunications infrastructure.

Denmark has LEGO. Sweden has IKEA.

There's probably loads of other companies and industries that I haven't even mentioned or thought of too.

The EU is doing OK despite all of that regulation.

ASML - the worlds only choice for EUV semiconductor manufacturing tech is located in the Netherlands...

 

[bluecoast]

I am not against what the EU is doing, and I really would like all of the browsers on iOS to not be Safari in disguise. But, when an EU bureaucrat makes a statement about technology that they are not qualified to make and speaks like they believe that they have real authority in the subject it is honestly funny or frightening. Apple knows more about IT Security than the bureaucrat. So therefore, when Apple winds up supporting third party app markets on iOS that is great, I just hope that if a user like me opts out of using third party stores that I will not be impacted by the security holes that the EU bureaucrats forced them to open. I have used third party markets on Android and the experience for me was not worth the security risks.

Fair enough. But like I said, all the EU is doing is asking iOS to be like the Mac.

And most of us don’t run antivirus programs on our Mac because the security is so good.

Yeah iOS will be a bigger target. But again, this will be down to apple’s engineering and security practices providing good security. Not because of third party app stores.

Tbh I don’t think that most people will install different app stores anyway.

But I do think that the presence of them will force apple to change how it does business with the App Store and approvals.

Having said that - if there’s one or two amazing hit apps that are on third party stores that could never be on the App Store this will change things.

And on the converse - it will take just one data sucking up on a third party App Store for people to be wary of them.

Again, it will down to apple to provide much more scarier warnings and double checks to allow access to your data and phone systems.

Finally - it’s not like the App Store is a gold standard anymore. Search for any keyword s and you’ll see rip offs of well known apps and games buying their way into the results.

Apple’s protests would mean so much more if they hadn’t let the App Store degrade into such a cash grab.

 

[bcortens]

I meant to get back to this earlier but wasn't able to.

Some in this thread have argued that consumers have plenty of choice already with iOS vs Android and that the App Store isn't really a problem that needs regulation because of this.

The problem with this argument is that if you are a software developer you cannot realistically afford to throw away the iOS ecosystem as a target market. This means you are subject to Apples whims and are forced to use Apple's in app purchase system (unless you get to use giant and unethical Reader exemption - but that's a topic for another time).

Apple forcing developers to use their payment processing system is an example of rent seeking because an iPhone without Apps is not as valuable as an iPhone with Apps. It is vital to realize that this value proposition goes both ways and is a symbiotic relationship not a one way relationship with developers benefiting from Apple but not the other way around. Without developers the iPhone would not be able to compete nearly as well as it does with Android, and without the iPhone there would not be nearly as many skilled mobile developers.

Apple wants to have it both ways, it wants to be a platform where developers can compete with one another and even Apple's own apps but it doesn't want to ensure the playing field is fair in that competition.


As a separate topic, while the gatekeeping issue is a large one, I think the EU has missed the mark on some of the larger issues affecting the software markets such as unethical (gambling psychology based) monetization systems and other predatory microtransaction systems. Microtransactions should be limited to specific cases where they make ethical sense and not just left to the free market. Further, software ownership should be encouraged rather than rental software, there is no reason for some software to be subscription based other than greed and consumers should be protected from this greed.

In The EU also needs an organization where the consumer can report unethical apps so that they can be pulled from sale - right now this is not addressed anywhere.

 

[bcortens]

Apple’s protests would mean so much more if they hadn’t let the App Store degrade into such a cash grab.

They care more about services revenue than user experience and since the App Store is one of their largest sources of services revenue they are fighting to keep it (including all of the unethical monetization behaviour that is implied).

 

[Gudi]

You really haven't spent much time in Europe (I am European).

No, you're not.

That map is missing the Italian plug (used almost exclusively in Italy & Chile), Danish plug (Type K), France (Type E), but shows the Swiss plug (Type J), and the UK plug and the green German plug which has been picked as the standard. https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/spread-plug-types-map/?location=it

It hasn't been picked. It was specifically designed for maximum compatibility with the other useless types.

Europlugs are compatible with the following types of sockets: CEE 7/3 (Schuko), CEE 7/5 (French), SN 441011 (Swiss), CEI 23-50 (Italian), DS 107-2D1 (Danish), SI 32 (Israeli) and IEC 60906-1 and other outlets that accept plugs with two round pins, 19 mm apart.

 

[I7guy]

People are being too blinkered in their view on this. The mobile phone has become more than just a mobile phone, it has now become a device that in most part is an essential part of how society functions which means the iphone goes way beyond just being a mobile phone. Companies of all nature are now requiring people to install company app's on their phone. Medical services, utility companies, banks, retailers, local authorities, it is becoming increasing difficult to live and work in today's society without the use of a mobile phone. Therefore as a result, due to it's importance in today's society, it cannot be a closed system controlled only by one company who can do as it pleases.

This attitude/behavior might be ok in the US, it certainly is not in the EU, hence why the EU is asking for Apple to be more open.

Android will meet one’s criteria then. It’s irrelevant if the worth of an optional device sold by a consumer facing public company. Buy the device that is right for you.