Everyone is missing the point...

[zarathu]

When Apple had to buy the same hardware as everyone else in the PC world, then the only way they could distinguish themselves was build quality and thinness and sexiness. They could not really make a Pro model without tuning it into a clunky alienware. THIS IS THE OLD PARADIGM.

But now that they have their own silicon, and its hardware that blows away the company that they were forced to buy from before, they can give up the thinness and sexiness, as their only claim to fame. Now Apple can blow away the competition on what really counts in a laptop: Performance and battery life.

If you still need sexiness, they have the Air. If you wanted performance above and beyond the competition, then we are finally back in the game.

It's A NEW PARADIGM.

 

[AltecX]

The fact that a well designed PC like the Razer Blade exists shows that Apple could have done it. In fact they used to do it before the "we need only 2 ports" movement. The only reason they didn't was because they insist on also being crazy thin for some reason.

Also, Alienware now has some rather nicely designed machines that are only 0.626in thick, that's only 0.016 thicker than the MacBook pro 14, and 0.034 thinner than the 16in.

 

[zarathu]

Your response illustrates my point. They are clunky nerdy looking machines. If Apple made those, Apple would just be part of the pack of Intel followers with a fast machine. Apple, for the last 15 years, while it had to bow down to having the same hardware as everybody else, had to forge an identity that would instantly be recognizable.

Perhaps its before your time, but for a short period when Apple was still using the last version of RISC chips, it had the fastest laptop in the world. But then Intel started making dual cores, and PowerPC could simply not duplicate that technology back then.

Apple needed an identity, and they also needed some stealth. You don’t think they had a long range plan in 2015 that would bring the RISC iPhone tech to the Mac? If you are going to take an industry by storm, you want them to think that you are down and out and not something to worry about. And so Apple continued to pursue its minimalist very thin approach, and the rest of the CISC industry had no real idea of what was going on inside of Apple. Meantime, outside of personal computers, where heat in the processors in your oven and refrigerator and car is a really bad thing, etc, they were quietly switching to RISC chips.


The whole industry is moving to RISC where the power is the same but the electrical power costs are way lower. And Apple will make that happen big time in the next two years. And just like phones, the rest of the industry will be playing catchup. With Silicon, Apple has also boosted their software library enormously: all the iPhone and iPad software now runs on the Mac. Those developers will almost instantly be able to broaden their apps to be bigger without having to change architecture platforms to do it. And when companies Like Affinity Photo realize the AI potential, they will launch incredible noise reduction apps or sub apps that were simply not possible unless you wanted to wait 20 minutes for the processor to slug slowly through the ML application.

 

[Jorbanead]

The fact that a well designed PC like the Razer Blade exists shows that Apple could have done it. In fact they used to do it before the "we need only 2 ports" movement. The only reason they didn't was because they insist on also being crazy thin for some reason.

Also, Alienware now has some rather nicely designed machines that are only 0.626in thick, that's only 0.016 thicker than the MacBook pro 14, and 0.034 thinner than the 16in.

Are you talking about these?

The chips inside are similar to an M1 in performance, not the M1 Pro, but use more power and cannot sustain loads. Same with the dGPU. Of course we don’t know about sustained loads on M1 Max yet - but Apple seemed to specify that their chip can sustain loads unplugged. We’ll have to wait for benchmarks and comparisons.

 

[leman]

But now that they have their own silicon, and its hardware that blows away the company that they were forced to buy from before, they can give up the thinness and sexiness, as their only claim to fame. Now Apple can blow away the competition on what really counts in a laptop: Performance and battery life.

I don’t think they gave up thinners and sexiness at all. These laptops are much more compact than any workstation with similar performance. I mean, they are thinner than the original Retina MBP. And they are still sexy as hell. That black keyboard, mmm… ?

The fact that a well designed PC like the Razer Blade exists shows that Apple could have done it. In fact they used to do it before the "we need only 2 ports" movement.

Razer blade lacks professional connectivity, is a notoriously unreliable, very hot under load and has bad battery life. Razer cuts down the battery size since they don’t have enough space to fit both a big battery and a large cooling system. To cool down that benefit of the GPU, it uses air vent cutoffs on the bottom of the laptop which makes it unsuitable for use in cramped spaces (e.g. on the lap). Usability of a laptop is much more than just its cooling system or the size of the GPU it can fit. I value Mac laptops because I can use them literally anywhere.

Razer is a great mobile gaming computer that you will use on a desk. It isn’t a good daily driver. It lacks ergonomy and battery life for that.

 

[zarathu]

Razer is a great mobile gaming computer that you will use on a desk. It isn’t a good daily driver. It lacks ergonomic and battery life for that.

Thank you. You get it. Most will not: they have put too much energy and time into something else. For them the previous paradigm is part of their psyche about personal computers, and changing will require changing how they view the world. The same thing will happen(and is happening) when due to natural climate cycles, the climate starts to get colder.

 

[sirio76]

It's just the new aesthetics for Apple Pro systems, like for the 7.1 MacPro the new design should not look sexy, it needs to look like a robust, well made industrial grade machine. Personally I find old models (both MBP and MP) to be a lot nicer, but after all any time there’s a “pro” discussion everyone writes that they are not interested in look and only need power, now they have it.

 

[zarathu]

Its more than the aesthetics. Apple needs the interior space, but because they kept the apple image over the past 5 years people still recognize the real Pro machines now as still an Apple.

I don’t know what old models you mean. My late 2013 has exactly the same dimensions as the new 16 inch, just slightly less curvature on the base which helps the cooling air flow.

 

[robco74]

I don't think they sacrificed too much with regard to aesthetics. Both are still pretty thin and light. I do hope we will see an expanded consumer notebook line. Back in the day, you could get the iBook in two sizes. I hope we will see that again. I would personally love it if they took the old 15" LCD panel from the MBP and built an MBA around that. For my own personal use, the MBA is more than adequate. I do miss a larger display. If they could squeeze in a 12-core GPU option without burning a hole in the chassis, that would be icing on the cake.

Still, that Apple can offer this level of performance without putting in a complicated and loud cooling system really does demonstrate how efficient their SoCs are. M1 is already impressive, I'm anxious to see how much stress these new MBPs can take before the fans kick in, and now loud those fans will be.

Even with a smaller display and chunky bezels, I find I do prefer the fanless wedge design of the Air. If I could get a larger display, that would be awesome, even if it isn't mini-LED.

 

[Total Respray]

When Apple had to buy the same hardware as everyone else in the PC world, then the only way they could distinguish themselves was build quality and thinness and sexiness.

No. What distinguished Apple was Mac OS.

 

[Boil]

No. What distinguished Apple was Mac OS.

100%; this ^ has always has been the case...!

Apple has given us a superior OS & software programs over other choices out there (IMHO), now they are giving us superior hardware to go with that software...!

I will be excited to get back to macOS after years of mucking about on a Windows PC...!

 

[CarbonCycles]

LOL you guys who rant about macOS need to work with Linux systems. macOS have become more and more unstable and bloated with each iteration (not to mention their security stance has become really annoying on how it's managed to break much of the software installation processes requiring downtime to figure out what the hell broke). Don't get me wrong, I like macOS...just not the direction that they are taking it by catering to the masses.

It's also a function of cost...Apple could produce one hell of a thin, super quiet, and performant system, but the prices would have alienated 70% of their customer base because they wouldn't be able to afford them.

The previous generation of MBPs were catering to the customer market that was more interested in thinner and lighter...it's the classic argument that you can have 2 of the three: lighter, faster or longer life. You can't have all three....unless you want to create an extremely expensive laptop.

I am glad they are moving back to the RISC architecture...the powerPC was one of the best PCs. Unfortunately, Apple was not in the position to really push the product because they held such a small portion of the market.

Classic product cycle "what's old is new again"...hell I say bring back NEXT!

 

[falainber]

When Apple had to buy the same hardware as everyone else in the PC world, then the only way they could distinguish themselves was build quality and thinness and sexiness. They could not really make a Pro model without tuning it into a clunky alienware. THIS IS THE OLD PARADIGM.

But now that they have their own silicon, and its hardware that blows away the company that they were forced to buy from before, they can give up the thinness and sexiness, as their only claim to fame. Now Apple can blow away the competition on what really counts in a laptop: Performance and battery life.

If you still need sexiness, they have the Air. If you wanted performance above and beyond the competition, then we are finally back in the game.

It's A NEW PARADIGM.

AS does not blow anything away. That's just a myth among Apple fans.

Intel Alder Lake Mobility CPU Benchmarks Leaked: Faster Than The Apple M1 Max, Smokes AMD 5980HX, 11980HK​

 

[Jorbanead]

AS does not blow anything away. That's just a myth among Apple fans.

Intel Alder Lake Mobility CPU Benchmarks Leaked: Faster Than The Apple M1 Max, Smokes AMD 5980HX, 11980HK​

It’s not a myth. Look at power per watt. That’s why people (Apple fans or not) are impressed. Also try video encoding and decoding as just one example, and you’ll likely find AS does blow away the competition.

 

[falainber]

It’s not a myth. Look at power per watt. That’s why people (Apple fans or not) are impressed. Also try video encoding and decoding as just one example, and you’ll likely find AS does blow away the competition.

Yes, phone chips are more power efficient. Most people use laptops connected to power outlets most of the time. Most of the time when they use laptops on battery is for meetings where performance does not matter (and battery life does not matter either unless one spends 10 hours per day in meetings in which case one does not need a powerful laptop to begin with). Absolute performance is a king unless one cares about electricity bill but AS is not going to save enough to offset the difference in laptop price.

 

[jjcs]

100%; this ^ has always has been the case...!

Apple has given us a superior OS & software programs over other choices out there (IMHO), now they are giving us superior hardware to go with that software...!

I will be excited to get back to macOS after years of mucking about on a Windows PC...!

Always been the case? MacOS 9 was hot garbage.

 

[falainber]

Always been the case? MacOS 9 was hot garbage.

And the advantages of MacOS over Windows are debatable at best. Mostly it's a matter of preference. The undisputable fact is that there are at least an order of magnitude more apps for Windows than for MacOS. This was less of an issue before AS came into the picture but it is really a big factor now.

 

[yitwail]

And the advantages of MacOS over Windows are debatable at best. Mostly it's a matter of preference. The undisputable fact is that there are at least an order of magnitude more apps for Windows than for MacOS. This was less of an issue before AS came into the picture but it is really a big factor now.

Why is it a bigger factor? Aside from anyone who used boot camp to run Wndows apps, why would app availability be worse because of AS?

 

[yitwail]

Yes, phone chips are more power efficient. Most people use laptops connected to power outlets most of the time. Most of the time when they use laptops on battery is for meetings where performance does not matter (and battery life does not matter either unless one spends 10 hours per day in meetings in which case one does not need a powerful laptop to begin with). Absolute performance is a king unless one cares about electricity bill but AS is not going to save enough to offset the difference in laptop price.

But what’s the point of an expensive, heavy laptop with poor battery life or reduced performance when unplugged? Why not get a desktop and maybe a tablet for the price?

 

[MrGimper]

After a good start, the original comment has once again devolved into the PC trolls hassling the Apple Fans.

Its like my favorite AI researcher was saying at an AI conference: “I was imagining telling a person from the 1950’s how today people carry around a device in their pockets that gives them every piece of knowledge known in the world, but what they use it for is to look at pictures of kittens, and argue with people they don’t know.”

Also reminds me of a C-Span committee hearing on the need to get the Equal Rights Amendment out of committee, and ratify it. The democrats asked the witnesses questions, but the republicans just kept complaining about why they needed to be there and constantly bashed Biden’s 1.7 trillion bill to assist people. I wanted to be there to ask them what their comments had to do with their presence on a committee encouraging ratification of the amendment. Apparently they don’t see the irony of the 3.5 trillion dollar bill in the last congress to help the rich get richer.

All the same stuff here.

I don't see any trolling going on here.... far from it TBH. What I've taken away from this is that Intel have some chips coming up that can compete with AS, and some discussions around different laptop usage.

For example, for me I don't use a laptop to achieve 10's of hours on battery, I use a laptop as a mobile workstation that I take to various locations and plug it in. I'd argue that this is probably the most common usage for a laptop (or portable as SJ called them)

 

[falainber]

But what’s the point of an expensive, heavy laptop with poor battery life or reduced performance when unplugged? Why not get a desktop and maybe a tablet for the price?

I agree. Desktop will work best for most people. But the reality is thay many companies give laptops rather than desktops to their employees. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it does not. At my company, every employee has a laptop but most of the real work is done on Linux servers anyways. Laptops are used for MS Office, e-mail, MS Teams, meetings etc. In this case, laptop performance does not really matter and most guys get relatively underpowered laptops. In other companies laptops are used for things like software development and desktops do excel at this but for whatever reasons (business trips, work from home, meetings etc.) the companies stiil give a laptop to their employees. It still works OK since the laptops are fairly powerfull these days. But the main point is that most of the time the laptops are used being connected to the power outlet. College students might be an exception but they don’t need powerful laptops as a general rule.

 

[LonestarOne]

they don’t see the irony of the 3.5 trillion dollar bill in the last congress to help the rich get richer.

Or the irony of someone who thinks the other party squandering trillions of dollars “helps the rich” but his party squandering trillions of dollars “helps the people”.

Or the irony that you complain about “PC trolls” just so you can post a political troll.

You really can’t buy irony like this anymore.

And the moderators don’t give a damn, as long as the trolls bring in more page views.

 

[Jorbanead]

Yes, phone chips are more power efficient. Most people use laptops connected to power outlets most of the time. Most of the time when they use laptops on battery is for meetings where performance does not matter (and battery life does not matter either unless one spends 10 hours per day in meetings in which case one does not need a powerful laptop to begin with). Absolute performance is a king unless one cares about electricity bill but AS is not going to save enough to offset the difference in laptop price.

You think the M1 Max is a phone chip? Did you consider that maybe people plug in for high performance because up until very recently, that was the only option? I’m glad you have seemed to gather a large sample of customers and surveyed them to see what their needs are. Clearly Apple should do the same, no?

Also we’re talking about two chips that aren’t even out yet (well some M1 pro/Mac chips are likely out now). Let’s wait to see true comparisons in real life before we make any calls. And these types of comparisons also fail to factor in Apple ecosystem and OS. For myself, I could care less what Intel does now (I used to care when Apple used Intel) - because my workflows and apps require Mac OS. I’ve tried PC, built a $3K machine even, and within two years sold it because I hated the experience.

 

[yitwail]

I don't see any trolling going on here.... far from it TBH. What I've taken away from this is that Intel have some chips coming up that can compete with AS, and some discussions around different laptop usage.

For example, for me I don't use a laptop to achieve 10's of hours on battery, I use a laptop as a mobile workstation that I take to various locations and plug it in. I'd argue that this is probably the most common usage for a laptop (or portable as SJ called them)

That’s a likely workflow, but your laptop doesn’t have an alder lake mobility CPU or the AMD equivalent does it? I was replying to someone who was comparing Apple silicon with those chips.

 

[quarkysg]

But the main point is that most of the time the laptops are used being connected to the power outlet.

Because most laptops will run out of juice (and slower) before the work day is over?