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Matty_TypeR

macrumors 6502a
Oct 1, 2016
641
555
UK
Its a big change for Pro user's, No upgrade path's, the last bit in the jigsaw for apple to complete. everyone is locked in with the only upgrade path being buy new. My 7.1 will be my last Mac as will my iphone be my last iphone. Had enough of the ecosphere where you have no say in what you can upgrade or use in your expensive purchased item.

The cell doors have now been closed to all, no more open core, no more hackintosh, and no more duel boot windows either. and win 11 run's sweet on the 7.1 infact much better than the buggy OSX release's every year now.

Your either in or your out with apple now, and i will be out of AS and soldered in Parts.
 

HDFan

Contributor
Jun 30, 2007
7,290
3,341
PCI is actually kind of slow and will go away soon enough in favor of things like TB4.

t’s true that in some cases thunderbolt can replace PCIe slots and in other cases there are Thunderbolt PCIe enclosures. However, in many of these cases it’s both more messy (more boxes, cables and power supplies) and more expensive to do so. In other cases, in addition to the above it’s also a lot less efficient.

PCIe 5 up to 128 GB/s
PCIe 6 up to 256 GB/s
PCIe 7 up to 512 GB/s, 4096 Gb/s

Thunderbolt 4 40 Gb/s
Thunderbolt 5 up to 120 Gb/s
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
Its a big change for Pro user's, No upgrade path's, the last bit in the jigsaw for apple to complete. everyone is locked in with the only upgrade path being buy new. My 7.1 will be my last Mac as will my iphone be my last iphone. Had enough of the ecosphere where you have no say in what you can upgrade or use in your expensive purchased item.

The cell doors have now been closed to all, no more open core, no more hackintosh, and no more duel boot windows either. and win 11 run's sweet on the 7.1 infact much better than the buggy OSX release's every year now.

Your either in or your out with apple now, and i will be out of AS and soldered in Parts.
Again; this is nothing new. It's been this way since well before Apple started considering switching from Intel to their own SoCs in the Mac platform. Glad you could make it to the party, but sorry to say the kegs have been tapped for at least an hour and a half already.
 

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
1,654
Its a big change for Pro user's, No upgrade path's, the last bit in the jigsaw for apple to complete. everyone is locked in with the only upgrade path being buy new. My 7.1 will be my last Mac as will my iphone be my last iphone. Had enough of the ecosphere where you have no say in what you can upgrade or use in your expensive purchased item.

The cell doors have now been closed to all, no more open core, no more hackintosh, and no more duel boot windows either. and win 11 run's sweet on the 7.1 infact much better than the buggy OSX release's every year now.

Your either in or your out with apple now, and i will be out of AS and soldered in Parts.
If the rumours of RDNA3 support coming is correct it might let us 7,1 users upgrade to the latest AMD workstation GPUs, that keeps our machines good for quite a while longer. And we could use the card in a PC workstation later on.
 

Matty_TypeR

macrumors 6502a
Oct 1, 2016
641
555
UK
If the rumours of RDNA3 support coming is correct it might let us 7,1 users upgrade to the latest AMD workstation GPUs, that keeps our machines good for quite a while longer. And we could use the card in a PC workstation later on.

This is my hope, but i guess we will have to wait and see if apple do release 7900 drivers. would give the 7.1 a boost for sure.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
If the rumours of RDNA3 support coming is correct it might let us 7,1 users upgrade to the latest AMD workstation GPUs, that keeps our machines good for quite a while longer. And we could use the card in a PC workstation later on.
Not if it's an MPX module. ;)


Certainly a garden variety RDNA3 card would work.
 

Serqetry

macrumors 6502
Feb 26, 2023
413
623
If the rumours of RDNA3 support coming is correct it might let us 7,1 users upgrade to the latest AMD workstation GPUs, that keeps our machines good for quite a while longer.
I really doubt it is. They discontinued the Intel Mac Pro the moment they announced that joke of a new one.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
I really doubt it is. They discontinued the Intel Mac Pro the moment they announced that joke of a new one.
They still sell MPX modules and Apple branded accessories that are specific to the 2019 Mac Pro. I agree that it's not the most likely scenario, but it's not impossible.
 

Serqetry

macrumors 6502
Feb 26, 2023
413
623
They still sell MPX modules and Apple branded accessories that are specific to the 2019 Mac Pro. I agree that it's not the most likely scenario, but it's not impossible.
Yes, but are they making them or just selling off stock? Either way, they were already in production, not a new design. As you say, it's not impossible... but there's still a small market for the 2019 Mac Pro for the people who need more RAM and/or Intel compatibility and Apple clearly had no interest in dragging that out. Releasing a new GPU for it would be dragging it out further.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
Yes, but are they making them or just selling off stock? Either way, they were already in production, not a new design. As you say, it's not impossible... but there's still a small market for the 2019 Mac Pro for the people who need more RAM and/or Intel compatibility and Apple clearly had no interest in dragging that out. Releasing a new GPU for it would be dragging it out further.
I definitely don't disagree. And the question you open with IS the million dollar question here. I could see it going either way. Then again, this is going to be the first time that we've had to ask ourselves this kind of question (pertinent to graphics card upgrades on a Mac tower on the older side of a processor architecture transition, let alone one wherein the newer side of that transition expressly disallows third party and/or PCIe graphics cards) in 18 years.
 
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GregStudio

macrumors newbie
Jul 4, 2023
6
13
PCIe 5 up to 128 GB/s
PCIe 6 up to 256 GB/s
PCIe 7 up to 512 GB/s, 4096 Gb/s

Thunderbolt 4 40 Gb/s
Thunderbolt 5 up to 120 Gb/s
The Mac Pro doesn’t have PCIe 5, 6 or 7. Regardless, for pro audio (music production and TV/Film audio post) bus speed doesn’t make any difference, Thunderbolt 4 is already way more than enough. The exception is the storage required, which obviously does greatly benefit from the bus speeds of PCIe 4 vs Thunderbolt 4.

G
 

Romain_H

macrumors 6502a
Sep 20, 2021
520
438
Yes! I am still waiting for some actual Mac Studio or Mac Pro user to say "I just can not get my work done with my new max-out Mac Studio"

Until we hear from users complaining about the M2 Ultra being so under powered that they are forced to build their own Linux PC, until then, I'd say Apple got it right.
Well... that's exactly what I did. And I know in at least one MR thread there are reports of members having done the same.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
Drivers may be one thing, but I highly doubtful Apple will go thru the trouble and expense to make MPX modules for the 7000-series AMD GPUs...?

I could see them making one generation of MPX modules post-discontinuation. They still sell Afterburner cards, MPX modules, and replacement proprietary (T2-driven) SSD modules specifically for the 2019 Mac Pro and I'd imagine they'll continue to do so for a little while longer because they know that the lifecycle of the Mac Pro is...well...long.

I don't see them doing this past 7000-series AMD and I DEFINITELY don't see them doing so past the point in time where Intel releases of macOS are no longer a thing.

The Mac Pro doesn’t have PCIe 5, 6 or 7. Regardless, for pro audio (music production and TV/Film audio post) bus speed doesn’t make any difference, Thunderbolt 4 is already way more than enough. The exception is the storage required, which obviously does greatly benefit from the bus speeds of PCIe 4 vs Thunderbolt 4.

G

I'd imagine that there are high-end broadcast and video capture cards that are still extremely ill-suited to Thunderbolt 4.

Well... that's exactly what I did. And I know in at least one MR thread there are reports of members having done the same.

Link me?

I'm not saying I don't believe you, but almost all of the complaints I've seen for the 2023 Mac Pro come from people that are dismissing it without ever having touched it and solely based on the specs and not any real-world performance. You do have those legitimately looking at it and finding that it inherently can't function in their situatons where a 2019 Mac Pro would've. But otherwise, I've found it largely to be people whining about PCIe slots being worthless without the ability to upgrade the GPU after the fact.

And why would buying-new not be an adequate upgrade path for a pro-user. Especially as new Mac Studios are half the price of old Mac Pros?
Because apart from the select few who specifically needed a 2019 Mac Pro, or more generally, an Intel PCIe-based Mac Pro and for whom the 2023 Mac Pro will not work (those that need more than 192GB of RAM; those that need more than one AMD GPU, those that need x86, etc.), everyone else is whining because aftermarket GPU upgrades and RAM aren't a thing. For the record, I'm not saying that losing these from the Mac Pro isn't a bummer and that not having RAM and graphics be upgradeable in a tower whose sole purpose was to be expandable isn't lame. Because it totally is. But to say that a Pro user (who never needed more than 192GB of RAM or more than a single MPX GPU) can't still take a Mac Pro with 192GB of RAM and 76 GPU cores and go to town with it is coming from an extremely narrow viewpoint of what is required to be an effective upgrade. These things are tools.
 

Romain_H

macrumors 6502a
Sep 20, 2021
520
438
You do have those legitimately looking at it and finding that it inherently can't function in their situatons where a 2019 Mac Pro would've. But otherwise, I've found it largely to be people whining about PCIe slots being worthless without the ability to upgrade the GPU after the fact.
Its easy in my case: I am a developer with a particular interest in genetic algorithms, researching these things for almost a decade now.

My implementation uses GPUs. More concretely, the whole algo is running on the GPU.
The Ultra is nowhere near my - yes - 4090 running under Arch Linux / CUDA (about 40x faster in typical scenarios I use).
Also, for me the "whining about PCIe" section of your post actually is kinda insulting, because the lack of a replacable GPU does make a real world difference. Its not "whining", it is a arguable deficiency in the MPs design. At least for my workflow. A 40x at half the price difference.

Haven't used PCs for almost 2 decades, now I am literally forced to switch. It saddens me that Apple apparently is not interested in offering me a workstation any more.
Instead, they invest (b?)millions in googles that will sell in ... tens of dozens. I fail to see how the Apple Vision is a thing of the future worth shelling out a fortune while the MP is not.
 

JayKay514

macrumors regular
Feb 28, 2014
181
161
PCI is actually kind of slow and will go away soon enough in favor of things like TB4. Same with RAM sticks, they are just too slow and will go away soon enough
Thunderbolt is *based* on PCIe, in the same way that 802.11 WiFi is a superset of Ethernet (aka IEEE 802.x standards for physical and data link layers).

TB multiplexes signals from PCIe lanes and DisplayPort outputs, in order to send them all over a 19-wire TB cable, and then demultiplexes them at the other end.

Because of this mux / demux process and the physical limits of signals over a TB cable, the bandwidth of TB will always be less than that of a full set of PCIe lines inside a computer.

Ideally, those PCIe lines are direct lines to and from the CPU if it has an integrated northbridge, or more or less direct if passing through a motherboard chipset northbridge, so no mux/demux process, compression, packetization, etc.

Each PCIe device on the motherboard has multiple pairs of wires for sending and receiving, called lanes. Therefore, a 16x (16 lane) slot has 32 wires connecting it to the CPU or northbridge.

If you have a high-end workstation motherboard with, say, eight full-length 16x slots, that means 256 wires. If they're running at PCIe 4.0 speeds, that means each lane can carry 2 gigabytes per second, so in total, that's 512 GB/s of data transfer per second (presuming ideal scenario, no bottlenecks etc.)

Thunderbolt 4 has 40 gigabit/s bidirectional speed - so dividing by 8 to get bytes, that's only 5GB/s up and down; so TB4 really can't replace the bandwidth of actual PCIe lanes inside a computer.

Also, PCIe 5.0 is 2x the speed of 4.0, so that's 4GB/second per lane, and in our theoretical workstation, that's 1 terabyte of data that can be shuttled around the bus, every single second.

Regarding RAM, there's always tradeoffs - backwards compatibility and expandability vs. possibly only having a fixed amount of memory in the machine. The SOC approach packages memory closer to the CPU, and in fact the kind of RAM in there is good old package-on-package DDR4, according to Apple's Jonathan Kang. It's not just the type, it's how it's deployed that counts.

"Unified memory" doesn't just mean a single pool of RAM for system and GPU, it's heterogeneous cache coherency, which means the system doesn't have to waste cycles reading and writing from off-CPU storage; it can do direct cache-to-cache transfers within that pool, never writing to disk, speeding up operations and requiring drastically less power.

In theory, that kind of memory management approach could be used with traditional expandable memory (i.e. like a giant RAM disk) but at the cost of latency and higher power use.
 
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GregStudio

macrumors newbie
Jul 4, 2023
6
13
I'd imagine that there are high-end broadcast and video capture cards that are still extremely ill-suited to Thunderbolt 4.
Of course with music production there is no video but in audio post there is. However as audio post occurs before/during colour grading there’s no use or benefit from using the highest data rate video formats and high-end video cards. So the data rates required for audio post are:
Pro Tools HDX card at max throughput = 256 audio streams at 48kHz/32bit requires roughly 49MB/s, a max configuration of 3 HDX cards is therefore roughly 148MB/s. 4K ProRes Proxy is roughly 20MB/s so in total that’s about 170MB/s, less than 5% of Thunderbolt 4.

Video editors/colour graders are likely to be using much higher rate video formats, ProRes 4444 (or Avid’s DNxHR 444) but that still tops out at around 200MB/s for the highest “XQ” setting. The highest you can go with ProRes is 8K, which requires about 850MB/s at the highest quality 4444 setting but there aren’t any 8K cinema projectors (the majority of cinema screens are still 2K) and UHD 4K is the highest broadcasters go, with a couple of experimental exceptions (NHK in Japan for example).

The advantage of PCIe vs Thunderbolt is cost. A Thunderbolt enclosure for a HDX3 system is about an extra €1,500 and a Thunderbolt video card can be around €800 more than a PCIe equivalent. That already wipes out most of the extra cost of a Mac Pro over a Mac Studio but of course video editors and audio post requires a lot of storage and fast storage can be a big time saver. This is where the cost and speed of having PCIe makes the new Mac Pro both a cheaper and better option than the studio.

G
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
Its easy in my case: I am a developer with a particular interest in genetic algorithms, researching these things for almost a decade now.

My implementation uses GPUs. More concretely, the whole algo is running on the GPU.
The Ultra is nowhere near my - yes - 4090 running under Arch Linux / CUDA (about 40x faster in typical scenarios I use).

Right. I contend that, if a 4090 was always going to be better than any AMD card, then even an Apple-branded x86 Mac Pro would not be the right solution for someone like you, given that you're limited to AMD cards as far as Apple will support. I know it's possible to shove in an NVIDIA card into a 2019 Mac Pro and have it work in Windows; but then, at that point, you're overpaying for a Windows-based Xeon workstation that happens to have the Apple logo and one of Jony Ive's best designs.


Also, for me the "whining about PCIe" section of your post actually is kinda insulting, because the lack of a replacable GPU does make a real world difference. Its not "whining", it is a arguable deficiency in the MPs design. At least for my workflow.

Incidentally, you are not among the people I'm referring to when I use the word whining as you clearly belong in the former group (of those whose workflows are legitimately at an impasse with an Apple Silicon Mac Pro, let alone the 2023 model). Those I'm referring to don't NEED GPUs for compute the way you and others in the scientific community would, COULD use M2 Ultra's GPU, and would probably find that, like several others who have posted benchmarks, it is superior to the best GPU you could toss into the 2019 Mac Pro by a sizeable factor. These people are calling the 2023 Mac Pro a failure because it can't be upgraded after the fact and not because they will actually have any real-world reason to need to do so. (Disclaimer: I recognize that there's a real-world reason to want to be able to upgrade your GPUs after the fact and I believe that Apple not, at the very least, offering a socketable SoC for this ability was a great misstep.) Those same people are also not testing that GPU to see just how good it is and just how long it will likely last one before the need to spend money on a would-be GPU upgrade would be even necessary.

Again, you, and others like you are not the kind of people I claimed were whining.


A 40x at half the price difference.

Considering even the second and third tier MPX modules cost comparably to the base model 2023 Mac Pro, I'm skeptical of this difference. I get that tossing out and replacing a perfectly good Mac Pro to get a generational GPU upgrade is...well...counter to pretty much every Apple environmental goal that they have, but from a cost standpoint, when I look at the price tags of those MPX modules, I'm not exactly finding where this is a problem in terms of mere retail costs.

Haven't used PCs for almost 2 decades, now I am literally forced to switch. It saddens me that Apple apparently is not interested in offering me a workstation any more.

I'm definitely empathetic to your plight and the plight of others in your spot. There's no denying that the lack of modularity is a blow to those that truly needed it and even to those that want it.

That all being said, Apple hasn't been kind to your industry for a while and you will probably find the grass greener on the other side for it.

Instead, they invest (b?)millions in googles that will sell in ... tens of dozens. I fail to see how the Apple Vision is a thing of the future worth shelling out a fortune while the MP is not.
Eh...they're banking on it being a new product family that will sell well and change the world in the same way that the iPhone did. The Mac Pro merely has the distinction of having to exist despite being an extremely low market share. Otherwise, they'd have discontinued it long ago.
 

Romain_H

macrumors 6502a
Sep 20, 2021
520
438
Eh...they're banking on it being a new product family that will sell well and change the world in the same way that the iPhone did. The Mac Pro merely has the distinction of having to exist despite being an extremely low market share. Otherwise, they'd have discontinued it long ago.
They do. However, at least for now the iPhone effect is nowhere to be seen
 

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
1,654
Eh...they're banking on it being a new product family that will sell well and change the world in the same way that the iPhone did.

So, you are saying that people will be camping outside Apple stores for days to buy those Apple VR headsets?

I don't think so. I can see some people trying to get them first so they can film videos of smashing them, driving cars over them, dropping them from a 3 floors out a window and uploading it to Youtube.

The iPhone was a useful device at its time, the Apple headset is unlikely to catch on in the same way.
 
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