extremes connected by ethernet 160mbps, 24mbps with WiFi..why?

[techwarrior]

one thing to mention is i am quite fortunate in that i have no interference from any neighbours as we live down a quiet country lane and are quite isolated...so is it just a case of trying to keep the 'traffic' down on certain channels, and keeping 2.4GHz to a minimum?

Fortunate that you don't have neighbor interference. My neighborhood is all 3/4 + acre lots with tons of trees so neighbors are not too close, but they are close enough that I do get some interference. So, here is the thing, and BrianBaughn makes a good point. If you oversaturate your airwaves with Wi-Fi, you can do more harm than good, especially if the channels overlap between the access points. This is more true of 2.4 than 5GHz (due to limited channels and longer range of 2.4GHz).

If your Mac runs Sierra (10.12.x), AP Utility now allows you to set the 2.4GHz channel to "OFF", this option is not available on earlier releases of the utility.

In my case, I found that the 3 Airport devices in my network automatically dispersed the 5GHz channels, but all three devices were using Channel 6 on 2.4GHz. The overlap and channel contention caused my 2.4GHz speeds to suffer terribly in some areas of my home. I then changed them to 1, 6 and 11 and things improved. But, my Mac at home is not capable of updating to 10.12.x, so I don't have the option to set the 2.4GHz radios to OFF.

I intend to take a 10.12.x Mac Mini from work home this weekend to turn off 2.4GHz on two of my Airports. My plan is to leave only one device on in a central location, using channel 11 which is farthest from the channels my neighbors use (1-8). What I expect this to do is to remove any contention I currently might be getting from my own, and neighbors networks. Since 2.4GHz signals have a longer range, a single device should cover my home adequately. But, 5GHz signals are weak without the extra Airports. I have IP Cameras, and other legacy devices that are not capable of 5GHz, so I am stuck with keeping 2.4GHz on.

In the days of 2.4GHz networks, due to the longer range, the need for extra Access Points was not as necessary as with 5GHz networks. Many of us simply threw more and newer Access Points in without taking the time (who would have guessed the need to) to optimize our networks to accommodate the extra signals we were throwing into the mix. What we really did is create Helter-Skelter Skelter for our poor little Wi-Fi devices.

So, my guess would be that if you disabled 2.4GHz on all but the Dining Hall Extreme, and set the channel on the Dining Hall Extreme to channel 1 or 11 (to minimize any interference from appliances or any other devices that share the 2.4GHz spectrum), but leave 5GHz on for all of the Airports, you will probably improve things dramatically. Alternately, if that is not sufficient, perhaps only use 2.4 on the Porch and Lounge Access Points (on Channel 1 and 11 respectively). From your diagram, your home's footprint is roughly 13x10 meters (42x32 feet). My home is roughly 18X10 meters, so just a little larger. My guess is, a single Extreme configured for 2.4GHz will more than adequately cover the entire space (it seemed to do so before introducing 5GHz to my mix).

FYI, the general stats on range are roughly 100-150 Feet (30-46m) for 2.4GHz indoors, and about 50% of that for 5GHz. Further, 2.4GHz signals penetrate walls better than 5GHz, but both will decrease if thick, metal or brick walls and ceilings are in the path.

 

[jtara]

As others have noted, Internet speed test sites are no way to test your WiFi speed.

iPerf is a good way.

There are some mobile apps that can test using only your router as well (no need to run iPerf on some computer).

I like the Wi-Fi Sweetspots feature of CloudCheck. You can walk around your house with a phone or tablet, and it will make a graph. There is a button you can use to mark spots on the chart (although unfortunately, no way to enter annotations - they are just "spot 1", "spot 2" etc.)

It also has a cute "geiger counter" type feature that beeps and is good for a quick check, but quickly becomes very annoying. (You can turn it off.)

With certain routers (mine isn't supported) CloudCheck has an additional option called Smartifi.

 

[gavcav]

It appears to me, based on the drawings only and the Pythagorean Theorem, that the two Extremes are more like 5-8 meters apart. This is way too close, unless each room is a Faraday cage.

Download iPerf here:

https://iperf.fr/iperf-download.php#macos

Make sure to use the same version on all systems.

Here's a use guide:

https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/answers/how-to-test-speed-home-network-iperf/page2

Post the results for both wired and wireless here. I'd run the server only on a wired connection.

This will tell us if you have an issue internally or externally. If this is too complicated, I'd suggest the trial-and-error approach and start with only one Airport Extreme and see how things change.

No the indicated position isn't very accurate to be honest, they're around 12-15m apart. Not a drastic distance only that one extreme in the lounge wasn't pushing the signal anywhere near the other side of the house..be it walls, other wifi interference or whatever?
[doublepost=1486585431][/doublepost]

As others have noted, Internet speed test sites are no way to test your WiFi speed.

iPerf is a good way.

There are some mobile apps that can test using only your router as well (no need to run iPerf on some computer).

I like the Wi-Fi Sweetspots feature of CloudCheck. You can walk around your house with a phone or tablet, and it will make a graph. There is a button you can use to mark spots on the chart (although unfortunately, no way to enter annotations - they are just "spot 1", "spot 2" etc.)

It also has a cute "geiger counter" type feature that beeps and is good for a quick check, but quickly becomes very annoying. (You can turn it off.)

With certain routers (mine isn't supported) CloudCheck has an additional option called Smartifi.

That sounds a really good tool, I'll look it up?..thanks
[doublepost=1486585894][/doublepost]

Fortunate that you don't have neighbor interference. My neighborhood is all 3/4 + acre lots with tons of trees so neighbors are not too close, but they are close enough that I do get some interference. So, here is the thing, and BrianBaughn makes a good point. If you oversaturate your airwaves with Wi-Fi, you can do more harm than good, especially if the channels overlap between the access points. This is more true of 2.4 than 5GHz (due to limited channels and longer range of 2.4GHz).

If your Mac runs Sierra (10.12.x), AP Utility now allows you to set the 2.4GHz channel to "OFF", this option is not available on earlier releases of the utility.

In my case, I found that the 3 Airport devices in my network automatically dispersed the 5GHz channels, but all three devices were using Channel 6 on 2.4GHz. The overlap and channel contention caused my 2.4GHz speeds to suffer terribly in some areas of my home. I then changed them to 1, 6 and 11 and things improved. But, my Mac at home is not capable of updating to 10.12.x, so I don't have the option to set the 2.4GHz radios to OFF.

I intend to take a 10.12.x Mac Mini from work home this weekend to turn off 2.4GHz on two of my Airports. My plan is to leave only one device on in a central location, using channel 11 which is farthest from the channels my neighbors use (1-8). What I expect this to do is to remove any contention I currently might be getting from my own, and neighbors networks. Since 2.4GHz signals have a longer range, a single device should cover my home adequately. But, 5GHz signals are weak without the extra Airports. I have IP Cameras, and other legacy devices that are not capable of 5GHz, so I am stuck with keeping 2.4GHz on.

In the days of 2.4GHz networks, due to the longer range, the need for extra Access Points was not as necessary as with 5GHz networks. Many of us simply threw more and newer Access Points in without taking the time (who would have guessed the need to) to optimize our networks to accommodate the extra signals we were throwing into the mix. What we really did is create Helter-Skelter Skelter for our poor little Wi-Fi devices.

So, my guess would be that if you disabled 2.4GHz on all but the Dining Hall Extreme, and set the channel on the Dining Hall Extreme to channel 1 or 11 (to minimize any interference from appliances or any other devices that share the 2.4GHz spectrum), but leave 5GHz on for all of the Airports, you will probably improve things dramatically. Alternately, if that is not sufficient, perhaps only use 2.4 on the Porch and Lounge Access Points (on Channel 1 and 11 respectively). From your diagram, your home's footprint is roughly 13x10 meters (42x32 feet). My home is roughly 18X10 meters, so just a little larger. My guess is, a single Extreme configured for 2.4GHz will more than adequately cover the entire space (it seemed to do so before introducing 5GHz to my mix).

FYI, the general stats on range are roughly 100-150 Feet (30-46m) for 2.4GHz indoors, and about 50% of that for 5GHz. Further, 2.4GHz signals penetrate walls better than 5GHz, but both will decrease if thick, metal or brick walls and ceilings are in the path.

I may have a tinker with just one extreme and see what I get then?.. good idea with the signal spread as well.
I've got to thank all you guys for the information you have given..I'm actually getting a slight idea of what is required and to avoid at last..it is all very interesting. I never have the time to sit and spend the time I'd like to read up fully having young toddlers ..thank you for giving your time to help me out, I really do appreciate it.

 

[techwarrior]

As for speed testing, actually there is a decent way to get a ballpark without having to mess around with complicated tools. Airport Utility shows connected WiFi clients. On the Mac (you can also find this info on iOS devices but it takes a bit more fiddling to get to them), click an access point and there will be a list of connected clients. But, wait, there is more!

Hover over a client and another window will pop up and it will tell you the PHY Mode such as 802.11b\g, 802.11b\g\n (2.4GHz) or 802.11 a\n\, 802.11a\n\ac (5GHz) that the device is connecting with, and things like IP\Mac Address, Name (hostname), Signal Strength, and Data Rate.

Also, I took a closer look at Airport Utility 6.3.7 (Sierra version) with an eye towards disabling 2.4GHz on some of my access points, the only device that can have 2.4GHz disabled from the channel selection list are the 6th Generation Time Capsule\Extreme (the ones that look like a tall, white AppleTV). Interestingly, the older AP Express (the one that can plug directly into the wall outlet without a power cord and which supports 802.11n) can be configured to use EITHER 2.4 (b\g\n mode) or n only, OR 5GHz (a\n) or n only, but not both.

If you have one of these older Expresses, you can set the Radio Mode on the Wireless Options page to 5GHz (a\n compatible) or n only so that it doesn't interfere with the other access points. The newest Express supports dual band where the older can support either band but not both. The original Express didn't support 802.11n so it would be 2.4GHz only.

But, whatever you do, spread the 2.4GHz channels so they don't overlap (provided you connect them via Ethernet). If you are using the wireless extend method (I think we already convinced you to avoid that method like the plague), I would bet there would need to be common channels or the extended device probably won't make the wireless connection to the router.

 

[gavcav]

Fortunate that you don't have neighbor interference. My neighborhood is all 3/4 + acre lots with tons of trees so neighbors are not too close, but they are close enough that I do get some interference. So, here is the thing, and BrianBaughn makes a good point. If you oversaturate your airwaves with Wi-Fi, you can do more harm than good, especially if the channels overlap between the access points. This is more true of 2.4 than 5GHz (due to limited channels and longer range of 2.4GHz).

If your Mac runs Sierra (10.12.x), AP Utility now allows you to set the 2.4GHz channel to "OFF", this option is not available on earlier releases of the utility.

In my case, I found that the 3 Airport devices in my network automatically dispersed the 5GHz channels, but all three devices were using Channel 6 on 2.4GHz. The overlap and channel contention caused my 2.4GHz speeds to suffer terribly in some areas of my home. I then changed them to 1, 6 and 11 and things improved. But, my Mac at home is not capable of updating to 10.12.x, so I don't have the option to set the 2.4GHz radios to OFF.

I intend to take a 10.12.x Mac Mini from work home this weekend to turn off 2.4GHz on two of my Airports. My plan is to leave only one device on in a central location, using channel 11 which is farthest from the channels my neighbors use (1-8). What I expect this to do is to remove any contention I currently might be getting from my own, and neighbors networks. Since 2.4GHz signals have a longer range, a single device should cover my home adequately. But, 5GHz signals are weak without the extra Airports. I have IP Cameras, and other legacy devices that are not capable of 5GHz, so I am stuck with keeping 2.4GHz on.

In the days of 2.4GHz networks, due to the longer range, the need for extra Access Points was not as necessary as with 5GHz networks. Many of us simply threw more and newer Access Points in without taking the time (who would have guessed the need to) to optimize our networks to accommodate the extra signals we were throwing into the mix. What we really did is create Helter-Skelter Skelter for our poor little Wi-Fi devices.

So, my guess would be that if you disabled 2.4GHz on all but the Dining Hall Extreme, and set the channel on the Dining Hall Extreme to channel 1 or 11 (to minimize any interference from appliances or any other devices that share the 2.4GHz spectrum), but leave 5GHz on for all of the Airports, you will probably improve things dramatically. Alternately, if that is not sufficient, perhaps only use 2.4 on the Porch and Lounge Access Points (on Channel 1 and 11 respectively). From your diagram, your home's footprint is roughly 13x10 meters (42x32 feet). My home is roughly 18X10 meters, so just a little larger. My guess is, a single Extreme configured for 2.4GHz will more than adequately cover the entire space (it seemed to do so before introducing 5GHz to my mix).

FYI, the general stats on range are roughly 100-150 Feet (30-46m) for 2.4GHz indoors, and about 50% of that for 5GHz. Further, 2.4GHz signals penetrate walls better than 5GHz, but both will decrease if thick, metal or brick walls and ceilings are in the path.

and by overlap...where more than one access point shows the same client connecting to it right?

 

[belvdr]

That sounds a really good tool, I'll look it up?..thanks

No need, I had mentioned this earlier (and you quoted me on it)

Download iPerf here:

https://iperf.fr/iperf-download.php#macos

Make sure to use the same version on all systems.

Here's a use guide:

https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/answers/how-to-test-speed-home-network-iperf/page2

Post the results for both wired and wireless here. I'd run the server only on a wired connection.

This will tell us if you have an issue internally or externally. If this is too complicated, I'd suggest the trial-and-error approach and start with only one Airport Extreme and see how things change.

The only issue with the data rate is it doesn't necessarily mean you'll get that amount of throughput.

 

[techwarrior]

and by overlap...where more than one access point shows the same client connecting to it right?

No, where more than 1 Access Point is using the same range of channels.

 

[gavcav]

No, where more than 1 Access Point is using the same range of channels.

ok this is driving me bonkers..disabled 2.4 GHz on both extremes completely just to see what happens. now when i check using AU it's nuts?..i'm sat here at my desk with my ISP modem and AE router, yet my imac, iphone etc is connecting not to the AE right next to me, but with the express located in the kitchen 8-10 metres away?..why isn't it connecting to the extreme right next to me?
same for the apple tv, amazon fire box and harmony remote hub...there in the lounge where i have my 2nd extreme connected to the first extreme(router) by ethernet..they are also connecting to the express in the kitchen 12-15metres away?..why?..surely they should connect to the nearest access point?

 

[belvdr]

Not necessarily. I don't think the AE's have the ability to coax a wireless client to roam to another AP, so it's up to the client to manage this.

Also, being extremely close to an AP is not good either.

 

[techwarrior]

ok this is driving me bonkers..disabled 2.4 GHz on both extremes completely just to see what happens. now when i check using AU it's nuts?..i'm sat here at my desk with my ISP modem and AE router, yet my imac, iphone etc is connecting not to the AE right next to me, but with the express located in the kitchen 8-10 metres away?..why isn't it connecting to the extreme right next to me?
same for the apple tv, amazon fire box and harmony remote hub...there in the lounge where i have my 2nd extreme connected to the first extreme(router) by ethernet..they are also connecting to the express in the kitchen 12-15metres away?..why?..surely they should connect to the nearest access point?

Are you connecting your devices to 5G or 2.4G? In AU, click on the various access points until you see your device in the list of connected devices. Then, click on the device and see what the PHY Mode is. If it reads 802.11b\g or 802.11b\g\n, you are connected to 2.4 and it makes sense that you wouldn't connect tot he AE next to you since 2.4 is disabled.

The cleanest way to force a device to use 5G is to name the 5GHz SSID slightly different than the 2.4GHz SSID. Then, you can choose which to use.

 

[gavcav]

ok..weirdness continues...i checked as per your instructions and found almost every device was using the 2.4GHz network!
i don't understand this as i have had set things such as imac, iphone etc to use 5GHz but they seemed to have defaulted to 2.4?
so i went to my lounge and double checked the amazon fire tv 4k box and nowtv hd box(roku hd) and UHDTV. the amazon fire box 'said' the 5GHz was 'not in range' and the roku box didn't even see the 5 GHz network when scanning? even though the extreme is literally 2m away and set for both 2.4 and 5GHz? and yet my lounge UHDTV was successfully on the 5GHz network.

i think i have resolved the above issues by de-selecting 'automatic' channel selection in AU and selecting the advised best channels using 'wifi diagnostics', 'window', 'scan'. after this the 5GHz networks are now seen and can be selected by the fire tv box and nowtv box!

but again, it's changed which 'client' or device is connecting via which access point!...for example my imac is now connected to the extreme in the lounge (12m away) instead of the extreme which is sat next to it?..so now i have 1 client connected to my primary extreme at my desk and 11 connected to my extreme in the lounge!!

is it possible to get each 'client' device to connect to a particular extreme/express 'access point'?

 

[techwarrior]

is it possible to get each 'client' device to connect to a particular extreme/express 'access point'?

Not unless you are willing to go to the trouble of creating different Network Name (SSID) for each AP and each band (2.4 and 5GHz).

But, if speed test yields adequate results, why bother?

 

[gavcav]

Not unless you are willing to go to the trouble of creating different Network Name (SSID) for each AP and each band (2.4 and 5GHz).

But, if speed test yields adequate results, why bother?

good point..haven't had chance today..got an intruder alarm fault as well!..good job i'm on holiday from work so i can waste my time on these jobs!
[doublepost=1487186714][/doublepost]just done a speed check and i'm still not happy with it..44mbps at the computer desk in the hall and 35mbps in the lounge..from a ISP package claiming max 200mbps, i expect a better test result?

 

[belvdr]

Not unless you are willing to go to the trouble of creating different Network Name (SSID) for each AP and each band (2.4 and 5GHz).

But, if speed test yields adequate results, why bother?

I did exactly this about 15 years ago, when I had trouble with clients not wanting to roam to the nearest AP.

 

[gavcav]

Not unless you are willing to go to the trouble of creating different Network Name (SSID) for each AP and each band (2.4 and 5GHz).

But, if speed test yields adequate results, why bother?

is it normal for devices such as iphone and imac to keep changing the wifi network they are connected to?..i keep selecting my 5ghz network but they keep changing back to the 2.4ghz network?
[doublepost=1487189009][/doublepost]i just don't get it..why is such a pain to set these airports up to give me an improved local wifi network?..apple market these devices as simple to set up with auto config etc. but it's been anything but simple..i've had such difficult time trying to sort this out and get a half decent wifi network speed..although my ISP hub (modem/router) didn't get to all areas of my house, at least it gave me speeds of 100+mbps in the main areas..i've spent nearly £500 on the airport devices and made my network worse?
i just cannot figure out what i have to do to get this fixed, it's driving me nuts.

 

[satcomer]

To get proper N or AC speeds use the 100+ channels!

 

[gavcav]

To get proper N or AC speeds use the 100+ channels!

To get proper N or AC speeds use the 100+ channels!

Thanks, ok I'll try that..fingers crossed?

 

[techwarrior]

is it normal for devices such as iphone and imac to keep changing the wifi network they are connected to?..i keep selecting my 5ghz network but they keep changing back to the 2.4ghz network?

It is normal, in fact, it is by design. The logic is that the best WiFi signal will be used. As you roam, the signals will fluctuate and 2.4 may be a stronger signal than 5GHz due to distance, obstacles, or interference.

If you want to always use 5GHz on your Mac and iPhone, do the following:

1. Ensure 2.4GHz and 5 GHz Wi-Fi SSID are different using Airport Utility.
2. On iOS devices, select the 2.4 network info icon (blue 'I' with circle around it) and then "Forget This Network" from the information sheet.
3. On Mac, open Network Preferences, click on "Advanced" and highlight the 2.4 network and click ' - ' to remove it from the Preferred Network list.

Since iPhone and Mac will only connect to known networks automatically, and prompt to join other networks (if "Ask to Join Networks" is enabled), these devices will never connect to 2.4GHz if it is not on the preferred network list. The drawback is, if the device is on the fringe of 5GHz range (remember the range is shorter for higher frequency networks), speeds may suffer. But, if you have adequate 5GHz signals throughout the home, should be no issues.

Again, Wi-Fi is a contentious network medium, the more devices using a given network, the more contention for clear channels. 802.11 uses a half duplex model, only one stream can be active at any given point in time. So, if one device on channel 6 is sending, the other devices sharing channel 6 will have to wait till the packet is processed to be able to send or receive a packet. It gets worse with more devices contending for the access to the channel. Devices will dynamically hunt for the least congested AP with similar or better signal strength that is advertising the preferred SSID(s) and dynamically connect to it. This is referred to as Roaming.

As many devices are not capable of using 5GHz, this is generally the better choice for those that can and it frees up capacity for those that cannot. However, it is never that simple given other factors such as range, interference, etc.

Wi-Fi engineering is the art of mastering trade-offs. In order to make Wi-Fi simple for users (by now you see the fallacy of this concept), there is much complexity behind the scenes. When 5GHz 802.11n and ac hit the market, it was with some improvements learned from earlier versions. The move to 5GHz was in part, to get away from the crowded 2.4 frequency spectrum which shares with microwave ovens, wireless phones and keyboards, and radar. There are other 5GHz devices like some wireless phones (not to be confused with smartphones), but these are less common. Further, 5GHz offers a wider range of channels in order to accommodate more Access Points without overlapping.

However, high frequency signals (5GHz) are more prone to signal loss due to distance, walls, or other obstacles. TV and Radio signals use ultra low frequency (in the MHz vs GHz range) compared to Wi-Fi, and thus can cover greater distance with less signal loss.

So, as a rule of thumb, more Access Points may be useful for 5GHz networks as they can operate on wider ranges of channels, and can "extend" the signal range to harder to reach parts of your home. 2.4GHz networks suffer with more Access Points due to greater range and fewer discreet channels, thus more overlap. Much of this is glossed over in Marketing literature, the tendency is to throw more AP into the solution rather than take time to understand the trade-offs. This is not to say the average Joe is to be criticized for his lack of knowledge, but who would know that there is so much more to consider.

One common concept to both frequencies is, the further apart you can locate Access Points, or the fewer AP used to cover the space, the less overlap, contention and roaming will occur. Devices in range of relatively equal signals will tend to bounce around from one AP to another as interference and contention fluctuate.

So, I gotta ask. Aren't you glad you asked?

 

[gavcav]

It is normal, in fact, it is by design. The logic is that the best WiFi signal will be used. As you roam, the signals will fluctuate and 2.4 may be a stronger signal than 5GHz due to distance, obstacles, or interference.

If you want to always use 5GHz on your Mac and iPhone, do the following:

1. Ensure 2.4GHz and 5 GHz Wi-Fi SSID are different using Airport Utility.
2. On iOS devices, select the 2.4 network info icon (blue 'I' with circle around it) and then "Forget This Network" from the information sheet.
3. On Mac, open Network Preferences, click on "Advanced" and highlight the 2.4 network and click ' - ' to remove it from the Preferred Network list.

Since iPhone and Mac will only connect to known networks automatically, and prompt to join other networks (if "Ask to Join Networks" is enabled), these devices will never connect to 2.4GHz if it is not on the preferred network list. The drawback is, if the device is on the fringe of 5GHz range (remember the range is shorter for higher frequency networks), speeds may suffer. But, if you have adequate 5GHz signals throughout the home, should be no issues.

Again, Wi-Fi is a contentious network medium, the more devices using a given network, the more contention for clear channels. 802.11 uses a half duplex model, only one stream can be active at any given point in time. So, if one device on channel 6 is sending, the other devices sharing channel 6 will have to wait till the packet is processed to be able to send or receive a packet. It gets worse with more devices contending for the access to the channel. Devices will dynamically hunt for the least congested AP with similar or better signal strength that is advertising the preferred SSID(s) and dynamically connect to it. This is referred to as Roaming.

As many devices are not capable of using 5GHz, this is generally the better choice for those that can and it frees up capacity for those that cannot. However, it is never that simple given other factors such as range, interference, etc.

Wi-Fi engineering is the art of mastering trade-offs. In order to make Wi-Fi simple for users (by now you see the fallacy of this concept), there is much complexity behind the scenes. When 5GHz 802.11n and ac hit the market, it was with some improvements learned from earlier versions. The move to 5GHz was in part, to get away from the crowded 2.4 frequency spectrum which shares with microwave ovens, wireless phones and keyboards, and radar. There are other 5GHz devices like some wireless phones (not to be confused with smartphones), but these are less common. Further, 5GHz offers a wider range of channels in order to accommodate more Access Points without overlapping.

However, high frequency signals (5GHz) are more prone to signal loss due to distance, walls, or other obstacles. TV and Radio signals use ultra low frequency (in the MHz vs GHz range) compared to Wi-Fi, and thus can cover greater distance with less signal loss.

So, as a rule of thumb, more Access Points may be useful for 5GHz networks as they can operate on wider ranges of channels, and can "extend" the signal range to harder to reach parts of your home. 2.4GHz networks suffer with more Access Points due to greater range and fewer discreet channels, thus more overlap. Much of this is glossed over in Marketing literature, the tendency is to throw more AP into the solution rather than take time to understand the trade-offs. This is not to say the average Joe is to be criticized for his lack of knowledge, but who would know that there is so much more to consider.

One common concept to both frequencies is, the further apart you can locate Access Points, or the fewer AP used to cover the space, the less overlap, contention and roaming will occur. Devices in range of relatively equal signals will tend to bounce around from one AP to another as interference and contention fluctuate.

So, I gotta ask. Aren't you glad you asked?

wow wow wow!..brilliant,

 

[gavcav]

Well thanks for all the help guys, but I've admitted defeat...last straw came today when I noticed considerable drag on the internet. I speedtested the download next to the primary extreme and got 1.75mbps ..yes 1.75. At the other side of the house in the lounge, where my secondary extreme was, I was getting hardly anything 0.75mbps.
I flipped out at this and took the apple out of the network, put my superhub back to hub mode (modem/router) and checked again..112mbps at the primary and 88 at the secondary.
I've absolutely no idea what the hell was wrong with my apple setup but it obviously was flawed. I wish I knew what the problem was but I'm not prepared to spend any more time ignoring my 4 yr old daughters pleas to play whilst I wasted days, weeks, months of my life trying to set up this 'simple plug and play' equipment.
I have to say I have never had such a frustrating time trying to set up devices.
I'm not sure if it was my ISP routers compatibility with the Apple devices or what?..there is muchevidence that the UK virgin media superhub 3 in modem mode has big issues with Ethernet wan port trip off?
Anyhow, I'm done and I'll be putting my £600 worth of Jazzy paperweights on a well know auction site tomorrow morning.
Massive thanks to all you guys who tried to help me out, especially techwarrior and belvdr...the end.

 

[techwarrior]

Apparently, the Superhub 3 has issues (from a January 2017 TechRadar review):

Others have reported problems when the router was put in modem mode and connected to another router. Many said that the Super Hub would just shut down the port used by the external router.

Last December, the root of the issue was identified as the Intel Puma 6 chipset that powers the modem, and the semiconductor giant has confirmed that there will be a firmware update that should, in theory, eliminate excessive lag and packet loss.

Don’t expect that firmware to be released anytime soon, though, as it will have to be validated and extensively tested before it’s rolled out to potentially millions of routers across the country. Note that the latest firmware is 9.1.116V at the time of writing.

(Virgin Media got back to us saying that they are currently working with the Hub 3.0 manufacturer on implementing the relevant fix.)​

Sorry it didn't work out for you, a shame they released this product with such compatibility issues.

 

[Wackery]

why didnt you call apple support?