iPad Pro Fact: iPads are iPads. And MacBooks are MacBooks. And that's just fine! :)

[Bubble99]

I don’t have knowledge of finance but your talking about ASP since that is what Apple usually focuses on right. High ASP ( I like to say Apple Service Price for some odd reason lol), Is part of the reason why they’re devices ( especially iPhones) are expensive, though for some iPhones ( and I mean SE 2016 and SE 2020) they sacrificed some of ASP for sales which isn’t surprising given that SE 2020 was the second best smartphone sold for 2021??.

Apple seems to do things different than companies like Acer, HP and Dell so on that have product line on every price point and every niche to grab in as much sales they can.

Apple likes to sale expensive stuff and have less market shares than have large product line on every price point and every niche market to get much market shares.

This why you don’t see Apple laptop for under $1,000 and why apple never tried to compete in corporate office world or having a gaming line. Apple does not care about market shares they are after expensive stuff. Where Acer, HP and Dell does things different.

 

[iPadified]

Anyway, regardless, the original point was that Apple Silicon Macs are just at the beginning and they will continue to grow and the gap in revenue share compared to iPads will only grow over the next couple of years.

Why would the ASi Macs be doing better than Intel Macs? Outside Apple community there is a bit of a stiff competition in form of windows and Android.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Why would the ASi Macs be doing better than Intel Macs? Outside Apple community there is a bit of a stiff competition in form of windows and Android.

They won’t. The fact is that fewer individuals want to pay for a Mac, especially since the vast majority of folks out there don’t see a functional difference between an iPad and a Mac, and the iPad is cheaper. Mac sales had a bump last year that was due to unique circumstances and I’d expect the unit sales will settle back into the less than 20 million a year rate. The main thing “special” about the M1 is that it allows Apple to lower the cost of production of the Mac so that, when unit sales eventually drop to 10 million, they can continue to justify the manufacture of it’s simplified product line.

 

[Digitalguy]

Why would the ASi Macs be doing better than Intel Macs? Outside Apple community there is a bit of a stiff competition in form of windows and Android.

Because they offer much better performance per watt than any other laptop, and the new M1X will outperform most desktops too while maintaining great battery life... That means tons of power + quiet + battery life...
Intel can't even come close to this... People who need Windows specific software will stay on Windows, but AS Macs could double the Mac market share in a couple of years...

 

[iPadified]

Because they offer much better performance per watt than any other laptop, and the new M1X will outperform most desktops too while maintaining great battery life... That means tons of power + quiet + battery life...
Intel can't even come close to this... People who need Windows specific software will stay on Windows, but AS Macs could double the Mac market share in a couple of years...

With the current prices - no. Corporate - no. Engineering - no. Gamers - no, 3D modelling - no, science - no. Are these rather large categories bothered about the electricity bill? Hardly.

Macs have absolute no advantage to Windows machines in terms of software or the wide range of hardware configurations. If you do not need Windows specific software you can just go iPad directly or as many do - a smartphone.

 

[Homme]

The SE 2020 might be the second most sold smartphone, but in terms of revenues it’s much less than other iPhones, actually half of the mini (which was considered a failure). So again, people tend to focus on units sold, financial analysts (and Apple) consider revenues a much more important metric. Sacrificing revenues with the SE was a choice to expand the client base and the service revenues, but even the SE, just like the base iPad is not a budget phone/tablet. They are more “mid-ranger”. Apple leaves the low margin budget to competitors and that’s a winning strategy for them…

Anyway, regardless, the original point was that Apple Silicon Macs are just at the beginning and they will continue to grow and the gap in revenue share compared to iPads will only grow over the next couple of years.

yes it’s revenues are less than other iPhones after all it was made, marketed and released in SE fashion and style as well as a price that doesn’t hurt Apple at the same time

yes I also agree about the focus on units sold which is why (maybe partially) Apple hid units sold some years ago but I love how people and corporations still estimate like how do they know when Apple doesn’t release this data. Reminds me of a Daniel Eran Dilger article about this subject

sacrificing revenues again I agree to expand the user base. This is what Apple has done to the original SE as well. The SE is naturally a successor to the iPod Touch in that department of user bases. Back in the day that was the goal of the iPod Touch but the SE lineup is much more than just a iPod Touch and with the perfect feature/price ratio the SE partially is a reason why many people do not own iPod Touches nowadays

yes even SE 2016 was a mid range iPhone back then when the 6s lineup were high tier

low margin Apple is not Android. Android failed big time when it came to ASP years ago because when we hear about Android sales it’s always unit sales from low priced devices. They failed to follow in apples footsteps when it came to ASP Apple Style and nowadays depending on manufacturer they are finished partially because they didn’t depend much on ASP *cough LG’s exit cough*

??

 

[Digitalguy]

With the current prices - no. Corporate - no. Engineering - no. Gamers - no, 3D modelling - no, science - no. Are these rather large categories bothered about the electricity bill? Hardly.

Macs have absolute no advantage to Windows machines in terms of software or the wide range of hardware configurations. If you do not need Windows specific software you can just go iPad directly or as many do - a smartphone.

Can't believe I am reading this.... " If you do not need Windows specific software you can just go iPad directly or as many do - a smartphone." So nobody should get a Mac... Based on what you say Macs are pointless, since you assume that power users don't need battery life (or even quiet operation) and that users that don't need Windows specific software should not get a laptop at all...
If that's your vision, we are so far apart that there I am not sure there is even a point arguing... And I say this as Windows users (so I am not even talking about Windows haters, just considering OS neutral people...)

Anyway, Apple will not change pricing. They are just giving much more bang for their premium Mac prices. And they will be making possible things that were not previously (having a light laptop that has the power of a desktop while having good battery life and being quiet). Windows has a much larger software base and Macs will never be the majority of computers, but doubling their 10-15% market share? Absolutely possible, and without reducing their margins, if anything increasing them thanks to the cost reduction of ditching Intel... And people adopting Macs thanks to hardware will be a push on developers to make more Mac software, in a virtuous cycle... Again Macs will never have a dominant market share, but their user base (made of both consumers and professionals) is definitely going to grow going forward...

 

[iPadified]

Can't believe I am reading this.... " If you do not need Windows specific software you can just go iPad directly or as many do - a smartphone." So nobody should get a Mac... Based on what you say Macs are pointless, since you assume that power users don't need battery life (or even quiet operation) and that users that don't need Windows specific software should not get a laptop at all...
If that's your vision, we are so far apart that there I am not sure there is even a point arguing... And I say this as Windows users (so I am not even talking about Windows haters, just considering OS neutral people...)

You read correctly and that is from someone who switched from Windows to Mac >10 years ago and is very happy. As far as I know there are no or very few softwares unique for Mac while there are many software that are unique or far better on Windows. That should be well known fact for everyone irrespective of preferences. The market share for Macs has been stable at around 5% worldwide for a very long time and that translates to being pointless.

The point is that your projections assumes the Mac existing in a vacuum. I really does not and the competitor is not iPad its Windows machines in all price ranges with a huge catalogue of high quality softwares and entrenched users bases. Equally entrenched as Mac users are.

 

[Digitalguy]

You read correctly and that is from someone who switched from Windows to Mac >10 years ago and is very happy. As far as I know there are no or very few softwares unique for Mac while there are many software that are unique or far better on Windows. That should be well known fact for everyone irrespective of preferences. The market share for Macs has been stable at around 5% worldwide for a very long time and that translates to being pointless.

The point is that your projections assumes the Mac existing in a vacuum. I really does not and the competitor is not iPad its Windows machines in all price ranges with a huge catalogue of high quality softwares and entrenched users bases. Equally entrenched as Mac users are.

Well let's agree to partially disagree then. I say partially, because as I said, Windows is dominant and will always be. And on this we can agree. Macs are more than 5%, but that's not important, whatever the percentage, it's a fraction of Windows.
What we disagree on is that Macs are pointless. And that's funny considering you have been a happy Mac users for over 10 years and I have been a Windows users since 1994 (and a DOS users before then). My only Mac is just used as Chromebook for youtube...
Until Macs ran on Intel it was more a question of OS preference (Mac vs Windows) and ecosystem and in some niche segments of better performance (latency for music, for instance). Now however it's more a question of nothing comes close to Macbook if you want a powerful and portable Mac, especially once M1X arrives and if as I expect, Apple will make under 2 pounds powerful and efficient Macbooks with M2.
Yes users are entrenched for the most part, I agree on this, but some aren't and given the current market share of Macs, that could be enough for Macs to double their market share, especially for people who want powerful laptops on the go (and maybe still have a Windows desktop or larger laptop at home).

 

[iPadified]

Well let's agree to partially disagree then. I say partially, because as I said, Windows is dominant and will always be. And on this we can agree. Macs are more than 5%, but that's not important, whatever the percentage, it's a fraction of Windows.
What we disagree on is that Macs are pointless. And that's funny considering you have been a happy Mac users for over 10 years and I have been a Windows users since 1994 (and a DOS users before then). My only Mac is just used as Chromebook for youtube...
Until Macs ran on Intel it was more a question of OS preference (Mac vs Windows) and ecosystem and in some niche segments of better performance (latency for music, for instance). Now however it's more a question of nothing comes close to Macbook if you want a powerful and portable Mac, especially once M1X arrives and if as I expect, Apple will make under 2 pounds powerful and efficient Macbooks with M2.
Yes users are entrenched for the most part, I agree on this, but some aren't and given the current market share of Macs, that could be enough for Macs to double their market share, especially for people who want powerful laptops on the go (and maybe still have a Windows desktop or larger laptop at home).

I just challenged your views because I thought they were a little bit too optimistic and dare say a little limited. I would love to see the Mac share double but my point is that there are lots of arguments that pulls in the other directions. Vector in that and there will be a more balanced discussion. I fully agree that the M chips has the potential to put Macs also in corporate environment and compute. However, energy efficacy is not enough for many users. Do I need to mention CUDA?

Considering this is a iPad thread the rationale was that if you do not need a windows machine you certainly do not need a Mac either and therefore a iPad might be sufficient.

 

[Digitalguy]

I just challenged your views because I thought they were a little bit too optimistic and dare say a little limited. I would love to see the Mac share double but my point is that there are lots of arguments that pulls in the other directions. Vector in that and there will be a more balanced discussion. I fully agree that the M chips has the potential to put Macs also in corporate environment and compute. However, energy efficacy is not enough for many users. Do I need to mention CUDA?

Considering this is a iPad thread the rationale was that if you do not need a windows machine you certainly do not need a Mac either and therefore a iPad might be sufficient.

If the other direction is iPad, I don't think so and iPadOS is definitely not helping, nor I do expect things to change anytime soon seeing how Apple sees the iPad. Windows is not gaining any market share either, and I don't expect Windows 11 to do much, other than maybe play a little better with the big-little architecture. I remain optimistic on Mac, not as some people that say "the M1X etc. will change everything etc., Windows is a dead platform bla bla bla" but still optimistic on Mac, with iPad stagnating and Windows losing some market share to Macs...

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Look I teach finance at university so I think I have a good idea of financial terminology.

Ah, you’re going by the archaic definition of “outsell”. Understood! Though, I AM curious about how to delineate “unit sales greater than” from “revenue sales greater than” in that framework, but I guess I can Google that.

Recognizing that they sell FAR more iPads than Macs is not saying that they should sell cheap phones, though, it’s nothing to do with phones. It’s saying that, right now, there are VERY MANY people that are skipping the Mac altogether because either Windows or the iPad does what many many millions of people need to do just fine, at the price they like. These are lost sales (unit and revenue) for the Mac and they’re not likely to return. Unit sales is critically important to the health and survival of any computer platform specifically. The fewer units sold, the fewer developers you’re going to attract to your platform.

Over time, more and more people will find the iPad suitable for their day to day use (just as folks today grew up with and would not accept a computer without a mouse, those growing up now will not accept a computer without a touch interface) and unit sales of the Mac will undoubtedly decrease, which will, of course, affect the revenue share. The vast majority will always primarily need email, internet and maybe social media content engagement/creation, none of which requires a Mac.

 

[Digitalguy]

Ah, you’re going by the archaic definition of “outsell”. Understood! Though, I AM curious about how to delineate “unit sales greater than” from “revenue sales greater than” in that framework, but I guess I can Google that.

Recognizing that they sell FAR more iPads than Macs is not saying that they should sell cheap phones, though, it’s nothing to do with phones. It’s saying that, right now, there are VERY MANY people that are skipping the Mac altogether because either Windows or the iPad does what many many millions of people need to do just fine, at the price they like. These are lost sales (unit and revenue) for the Mac and they’re not likely to return. Unit sales is critically important to the health and survival of any computer platform specifically. The fewer units sold, the fewer developers you’re going to attract to your platform.

Over time, more and more people will find the iPad suitable for their day to day use (just as folks today grew up with and would not accept a computer without a mouse, those growing up now will not accept a computer without a touch interface) and unit sales of the Mac will undoubtedly decrease, which will, of course, affect the revenue share. The vast majority will always primarily need email, internet and maybe social media content engagement/creation, none of which requires a Mac.

As usual all is not black or white and the tough thing is to set the line at the level that maximizes profits. I think Apple has struck a decent balance. They go low midrange with iPad and iPhone SE in order to have a wider market share, but their core business is always the premium segment. And you can see that with Android vs IOS. Android has many more devices than IOS but developers make much more more money on IOS... So the number of devices matters, but only to a point.

As for more and more people replacing laptops with iPads, I wouldn't be so optimistic on that. People that don't need a desktop OS have already move to smartphone only or smartphone and tablet (including old people, some of whom never learnt to use a computer). Those who need a desktop OS (either for work or for personal use) have not really more reasons than in the past to move to iPad only, even when they do most of what they do on their iPads. So I don't see iPads growing at the expense of Macs, unless Apple makes some big changes in iPadOS, which they don't seem willing to do, for this very reason...
Instead I see a good deal of professionals and prosumers being attracted to Macs by their power/efficiency/quiet operation and general value for money in the premium segment (mind you, not with M1 only, but with what is coming after M1, that is either redesigned more powerful macbooks and/or redesigned much lighter macbooks, both with great battery life). Nothing to threaten Windows dominant position, but enough for Macs to grow significantly and quite a bit more than iPads....