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DustinT

macrumors 68000
Feb 26, 2011
1,556
0
That's the problem with internet-based backups. It's just not yet a viable solution for huge datasets with current ISP speeds.

There's no way my data would be static enough for two weeks to upload and have any of the data be consistent from the beginning to the end of the upload. One change to something that was already uploaded before the rest of the upload finished and I'd potentially have a non-functional backup.
Are you taking into account that the companies we're talking about do delta updates? What I mean is, if you have a 30 gb files (say an iPhoto database) and you make minor changes like importing a few hundred photos, only the changes will need to be uploaded, not the entire 30 gb file. That does a lot to help in the situation your describing. I find that maintaining a few hundred gb up to date online is possible over a normal isp's connection if you can bear to wait through the initial upload.
 

xraydoc

Contributor
Original poster
Oct 9, 2005
11,030
5,491
192.168.1.1
Are you taking into account that the companies we're talking about do delta updates? What I mean is, if you have a 30 gb files (say an iPhoto database) and you make minor changes like importing a few hundred photos, only the changes will need to be uploaded, not the entire 30 gb file. That does a lot to help in the situation your describing. I find that maintaining a few hundred gb up to date online is possible over a normal isp's connection if you can bear to wait through the initial upload.

That I understand. But getting the original 3.8TB up online in the first place will take weeks. And if it's modified in the process, there could be issues, don't you think?
 

DustinT

macrumors 68000
Feb 26, 2011
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Ya, 3.8 terabytes is a ton. If you can't get that number down any that I'd suspect you should look into getting friendly with someone with a storage array you can borrow some space on because paying for that amount of storage would get pricey. And I rather doubt the 'unlimited' plans would cover that much.

Crashplan does offer a free service whereby you can create a backup archive and then send that to a friend who's agreed to share space on their local backup system for your use. Then, when your friend gets it they can simply connect the drive and tell Crashplan to import it. Once that's completed you could simple resume updating over the internet.

If you have the means, more of the commercial backup system designed for business will allow you to send them a drive and they will copy the data into your storage pool. However, considering the level of service they are providing the prices tend to match. At least Crashplan is free.

----------

Oh, there's always the approach of giving a family member a large backup array for their uses and letting them know you'll be sending some files over as well. Ie. give Mom and Dad their own Nas unit and setup a remote connection for your own uses. They're happy since they have backups and you get offsite backups in the process. Everyone wins.
 

DoFoT9

macrumors P6
Jun 11, 2007
17,586
100
London, United Kingdom
hi guys. good read.

im not too sure an online backup is preferable here, given the rate of growth you will experience, and the costs involved.

personally i would focus on 2 things.
1. using the mac pro continually as the "primary backup" device for your home network. this would be done by first upgrading the internal drives, potentially to 2TB or 3TB disks (slower, green drives would be appropriate, given that speed does not matter). this would either be via RAID0 or JBOD.

2. ensuring that this backup device itself is redundant. this would involve either a 4-bay external fw800+eSata+ethernet enclosure (RAID5) OR 2x dual external enclosures configured in RAID0 or JBOD (6TB max currently) (maybe take 1 offsite to a family members house to ensure off-site backups, monthly?).

this would leave room for expansion. if a quad bay is used, it could be expanded to 9TB of redundant RAID5 data. plenty for now?

oh, and a few points to note.
- RAID0 allows for fast write and read rates, RAID1 is the one that does not (just a technicality mentioned in the 3rd post i think)
- i am fairly certain that osx cannot do software RAID5 out of the box.


eh. just some ideas. and very cost effective solutions too. this could be done for <$500.
 

xraydoc

Contributor
Original poster
Oct 9, 2005
11,030
5,491
192.168.1.1
hi guys. good read.

im not too sure an online backup is preferable here, given the rate of growth you will experience, and the costs involved.

personally i would focus on 2 things.
1. using the mac pro continually as the "primary backup" device for your home network. this would be done by first upgrading the internal drives, potentially to 2TB or 3TB disks (slower, green drives would be appropriate, given that speed does not matter). this would either be via RAID0 or JBOD.

2. ensuring that this backup device itself is redundant. this would involve either a 4-bay external fw800+eSata+ethernet enclosure (RAID5) OR 2x dual external enclosures configured in RAID0 or JBOD (6TB max currently) (maybe take 1 offsite to a family members house to ensure off-site backups, monthly?).

this would leave room for expansion. if a quad bay is used, it could be expanded to 9TB of redundant RAID5 data. plenty for now?

oh, and a few points to note.
- RAID0 allows for fast write and read rates, RAID1 is the one that does not (just a technicality mentioned in the 3rd post i think)
- i am fairly certain that osx cannot do software RAID5 out of the box.


eh. just some ideas. and very cost effective solutions too. this could be done for <$500.

If you're referring to my setup, here's the executive summary:

Mac Pro running Lion Server is the Time Machine backup device for all the Macs in the house. It had been running 5x1.5TB WD Green drives in an internal RAID 0 as the storage volume with separate share points for each network user configured via Lion Server. Had to choose RAID 0 as OS X doesn't support software RAID 5. Four of the five RAID drives are in bays 1-4 and the 5th (as well as the Lion Server OS/boot drive) are attached to the extra two SATA posts on the '06 Mac Pro's motherboard.

Given the volatility of RAID 0, I had been looking for a way to easily add the RAID 0 array to a RAID 1 with separate external device as the other drive in the mirror. However, this proved not possible without moving the RAID 0 to an external device and buying a second matching set.

So, to minimize costs, I purchased an OWC Qx2 RAID enclosure, which supports hardware-based RAID 5, and four 2TB WD Green drives. This itself was about $760. The 8TB set gives a formatted capacity of 6TB in RAID 5 configuration. It's connected to the Mac Pro via a PCIe card eSATA connection.

Logging in to the file server as root, I disconnected it from the network for a day and duplicated all the data from the internal RAID 0 to the external RAID 5. Root was the easiest way to ensure all permissions were carried over properly. Once done, I changed Lion Server's share settings to point to the RAID 5 instead of the internal RAID 0 and connected it back to the network. The client computers were unaffected by the changes and continued along on their merry way.

I then set up the app SuperDuper! to do a Fast Copy (i.e., only files that change) from the external RAID to the internal RAID. This runs automatically 4 times per week, though I probably could do it daily since it's a pretty fast process (avg. 20 min, 45 min tops, so far).

Interestingly, even though the file server sits running on a standard Administrator login, SuperDuper! needs root privileges (not just admin privileges) to successfully complete a copy cycle or it'll fail. Not sure why but I'm not too worried about root being active - the machine is physically secure and has (a) it's firewall activated and stealthed, and shut down to anything that isn't necessary for file sharing and Time Machine; no mail, directory, iCal or other services are running, (b) is behind a NAT device with no port forwarding directed to the server itself, and (c) is not configured for remote management.

So, bottom line is a RAID and a backup RAID, where the primary is a RAID 5 array (protected from single-drive failure) and the other slice is a RAID 0 array. While not a true RAID 1 in that there isn't simultaneous writes across both sets, the worst that could happen - in the event of two simultaneous drive failures in the RAID 5 array - is that I'd still be left with an intact data set that is at most 48 hrs old. I can live with that. A single drive failure in the RAID 0 would destroy that array, but really just holds a backup of the other RAID set, so that could be rebuilt with zero down time.

The only thing that isn't covered is catastrophic loss/damage to the whole file server system (the Mac Pro and the 10 hard drives attached, 9 if you don't count the boot/OS drive). For this I'll need to spend some more $$ to rotate out a copy weekly on removable (or detachable) media. Not sure if a single 4TB HD will hold a full copy - if it will, it won't for long - so I'm suspecting I'll need a 6TB two-drive RAID 0 (easy to come by) to duplicate everything on to which I then can store at the office for safe keeping.

This hopefully will be helpful to someone.

Future upgrade may include a second, matching OWC Qx2 box which will get set as a software RAID 1 with the existing Qx2 -- a RAID 1 where each of the two slices is itself a hardware RAID 5 -- and ditch the RAID 0. That would be slick.
 

DustinT

macrumors 68000
Feb 26, 2011
1,556
0
Tell you what, Doc, you sure have thought this through pretty well. Not too shabby.
 

xraydoc

Contributor
Original poster
Oct 9, 2005
11,030
5,491
192.168.1.1
Tell you what, Doc, you sure have thought this through pretty well. Not too shabby.

Thanks.

I've never lost data since the days of the Apple ][+ and I don't plan to. Of course, back then it was as easy as duplicating a floppy and storing it someplace safe. Though I was hot $#!+ for having two floppy drives!
 

DoFoT9

macrumors P6
Jun 11, 2007
17,586
100
London, United Kingdom
Interestingly, even though the file server sits running on a standard Administrator login, SuperDuper! needs root privileges (not just admin privileges) to successfully complete a copy cycle or it'll fail. Not sure why but I'm not too worried about root being active - the machine is physically secure...
i daresay, to keep the permissions 100% accurate, root is the only one that is able to change/maintain the system groups - such as spotlight, etc. i know i have run into this problem a few times before :(

This hopefully will be helpful to someone.
without doubt :)

Future upgrade may include a second, matching OWC Qx2 box which will get set as a software RAID 1 with the existing Qx2 -- a RAID 1 where each of the two slices is itself a hardware RAID 5 -- and ditch the RAID 0. That would be slick.

those OWC drives are mighty expensive. i was able to purchase a similar quad bay box (esata +usb) for roughly $180Aus (about the same in US). it obviously didn't come with drives.

but i am confused. so you have the Qx2 with 4x2TBs in RAID5 - giving 4x2TB (6TB usable space).

if you purchase another Qx2 and RAID1 it, that will only give you 2TB of space - except mirrored 3 times.. unless you mean RAID1 drives 1&2, then RAID1 drives 3&4 - then combine them in a JBOD or similar concatenation to give you 4TB usable space that is redundant (a RAID10 of sorts).

but yes - i agree, please PLEASE get rid of the RAID0. :)
 

xraydoc

Contributor
Original poster
Oct 9, 2005
11,030
5,491
192.168.1.1
but i am confused. so you have the Qx2 with 4x2TBs in RAID5 - giving 4x2TB (6TB usable space).

if you purchase another Qx2 and RAID1 it, that will only give you 2TB of space - except mirrored 3 times.. unless you mean RAID1 drives 1&2, then RAID1 drives 3&4 - then combine them in a JBOD or similar concatenation to give you 4TB usable space that is redundant (a RAID10 of sorts).

but yes - i agree, please PLEASE get rid of the RAID0. :)

No - What I would do is use two Qx2's in a software RAID 1. Each Qx2 would be one half of the software RAID 1. Each Qx2, however, would be a hardware RAID 5. So this is would be a RAID 1+5 (or 5+1). The capacity wouldn't change: 6TB but mirrored.

After that, I'd get rid of the RAID 0 and repurpose the individual drives for something else (not sure what though...).
 

DoFoT9

macrumors P6
Jun 11, 2007
17,586
100
London, United Kingdom
No - What I would do is use two Qx2's in a software RAID 1. Each Qx2 would be one half of the software RAID 1. Each Qx2, however, would be a hardware RAID 5. So this is would be a RAID 1+5 (or 5+1). The capacity wouldn't change: 6TB but mirrored.

After that, I'd get rid of the RAID 0 and repurpose the individual drives for something else (not sure what though...).

RIGHT! well that makes much more sense now. thank you for elaborating for me :)

though, i am not entirely sure of the stability of having external firewire devices RAID'd. what if the power cuts to them when writing, or similar.

please be sure to have a high grade UPS installed. :)
 

xraydoc

Contributor
Original poster
Oct 9, 2005
11,030
5,491
192.168.1.1
RIGHT! well that makes much more sense now. thank you for elaborating for me :)

though, i am not entirely sure of the stability of having external firewire devices RAID'd. what if the power cuts to them when writing, or similar.

please be sure to have a high grade UPS installed. :)

No more risky than loss of power to an internal RAID. Mine are eSATA, not Firewire, but either way, yes, a nice big UPS.
 

DoFoT9

macrumors P6
Jun 11, 2007
17,586
100
London, United Kingdom
No more risky than loss of power to an internal RAID. Mine are eSATA, not Firewire, but either way, yes, a nice big UPS.

oh yeh of course, doesn't matter what it is. i am glad you have one! i, unfortunately, run RAID0 on a number of drives, and have no UPS.... i really need to sort that out! :rolleyes:
 

DoFoT9

macrumors P6
Jun 11, 2007
17,586
100
London, United Kingdom

yup. only backup the important stuff.

in december i plan on upgrading to a Z79 chipset machine, it comes with 14 on board Sata ports (not sure if i will hackintosh it yet, but it will be headless regardless). at that point i will invest in some drives to create some redundant arrays, and have offsite backups, etc. let's hope i can wait out until then!!! :D
 

zombiejebus

macrumors newbie
Oct 13, 2011
6
0
Eh. My cobbled media/backup server rig.

Figured I'd chime in on storage stuff. btw, apple software raid doesn't do raid5. Various apple docs talk about raid5 but thats only when the raid manager is controlling one of the hardware add on cards.

I have an older 775 socket nforce mobo that I run 10.7 server on. I have a fully loaded 8 bay port replicator case (steel vine chipsets in jbod mode) connected to a sonnet esata card. (which is a marvel chipset, not SI). I also have a rocket raid 4320 in the thing, running a pair of 4 drive raid5s. This isn't exactly a friendly motherboard to run a hackintosh on; the built in nics are crappy at best (50 mb/sec or less; I get 90-100mb+ out of my marvel nice under the yukon drivers). The drive tower houses individual drives shared out for use as time machine volumes, my computers only run time machine at 6 hour intervals. The rest of the drives are for backing up selected content on my raid volumes via rsync at periodic intervals. All the live data and my vmware images sit on the raid volumes.

If you have the cash and hardware to accommodate it I strongly recommend using a hardware/iop equipped raid card. The thing is fantastic, when I tested it (booting off a big raid) in my workstation machine it was ridiculously fast. (1500mb/sec out of the cache; ~800mb/sec io in general). And my data did survive a drive failure at one point this summer; rebuilding the array was relatively painless.
 
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