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FlightTrack real-time flight tracker/mapper released
- Thread starter bkazez
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May I ask (if you do not mind saying) what applications you have purchased? Only things that are not available free online? It's about convenience. I mean, isn't that what the iPhone is all about?
Who'd think terrorists would use Facebook to spread their message or Google Earth to plan the attacks in India.
I also didn't say inconvenience would stop a terrorist. Try actually reading what I wrote next time.
It doesn't even matter anyways because the data isn't quite real-time. I've looked at the Flight View data on my phone before while waiting for someone at the airport, and it said the plane was still in the air by the time we were at the baggage claim. The data's not real time, it's behind probably about 10 minutes or so. By the time Flight View says a plane is at position X, it's actually long past position X.
Besides, even if it was real time, look at the screenshot. Nothing is to scale. The plane is the same size as New Mexico. The accuracy and scale on that map isn't high enough to give you anything close to an exact position of the plane.
I see your point. The facebook and google earth apps are pretty much made for terrorists.
It's probably only about 5 to 10 minutes behind. The point of this app isn't to be an air traffic controller, the point is to see when flights have departed, arrived and if they're in route, approximately where they are and when they'll arrive. If you need real time, then go apply for a job as an air traffic controller or sit outside the airport with binoculars because that's probably the only way you'll ever get 100% real time flight information
The FAA data the app is getting isn't quite real-time. As others have already noticed, it's intentionally about 5 minutes behind. But it's great to track flights if you're picking someone up at the airport. I just use flightaware.com on my Blackberry, personally.
This is not a security risk in any way, shape or form either.
This is not a security risk in any way, shape or form either.
The FAA's ASDI feed is is supposed to average about 5 minutes behind "actual," for many reasons. Data refresh rates, volume (remember the thousands of aircraft in the system at any one moment), security and other factors all impact this. I have seen as little as <2 minutes, and as much as 7 minutes+. For most civil purposes, this is sufficient to qualify as real-time. Also, not every flight is necessarily trackable (certain flights are excluded by request from the database).
Even the FAA's (and DoD TRACON) internal systems can be several seconds behind true real-time because of update rates, etc.
FlightTrack advertises it provides 'live flight tracker maps'. The use of the word 'live' implies this information is 'real time' and it is not.
The reason there is no security risk is because this application does not provide real time flight information, despite the characterization by the author who started this thread. I assumed the author would know what kind of information his application was providing and 'real time' data was my concern.
The flight information provided to this application is delayed at least 5 minutes. Why? Because of security concerns. It's not delayed 5 minutes because of any altruistic or patriotic instincts of the authors of such software, because of data volume or refresh rates, the number of planes in the air, or any other such guesses by the MacForum illuminati who arrogantly ridiculed my posts about security. It's because the FAA wont give them access to the data.
There are 2 classes of users of flight data, as defined by the FAA;
Class 1 which is 'near real time' and is restricted to businesses who actually dispatch and/or plan flights.
Class 2 is everyone else and this data is delayed at least 5 minutes. The following is taken directly from this FAA document.
"As a result of the aviation-related attacks of September 11, 2001 in the United States, the FAA reviewed security risks related to the ASDI/NASSI feed and determined that only Subscribers that are Class One Users (See Section 5.2) are authorized to receive the full near real time ASDI and NASSI data set (this includes Direct Subscribers with Class One Indirect Subscribers). Subscribers that are Class Two Users (See Section 5.3) are not authorized to receive near real time flight tracking and position messages. Class Two Users are only authorized to receive the full ASDI and NASSI data set that has been time-delayed at least 5 minutes. The scope and content of ASDI/NASSI data that will be available to government users and research and development organizations will be determined by the FAA on a case-by-case basis. Sections 7.1 and 7.2 of this MOA describe the responsibilities of the FAA and Direct Subscribers, including limits on redistribution of the ASDI and NASSI data. "
As you've pointed out - even the Class One is only 'near' real time. Like JohnNotBeatle said, there are going to be inherent delays that cannot be overcome, at least with the technology they're using now.
And c'mon - the FAA put in the five minute delay to placate some stupid politician that thought real time tracking data would somehow be a security risk to begin with. It's really not. Someone explain to me how a terrorist would use this 'near' real time data for anything useful to them?
And c'mon - the FAA put in the five minute delay to placate some stupid politician that thought real time tracking data would somehow be a security risk to begin with. It's really not. Someone explain to me how a terrorist would use this 'near' real time data for anything useful to them?
Since the FAA can get this information to the air traffic controllers across the country, they could have provided it but they decided not to. It's not a technology issue.
Because you don't agree with, or understand it, it must be a stupid reason and not a security risk. Amazing, truly amazing.
First of all, ATC isn't using this information - it's the other way around. And second, you didn't answer my question. Tell me where the security risk is if the data isn't 100% real time.
Try and read what I wrote.
ATCs get real time information.
Class 1 is near real time.
Class 2 is delayed at least 5 minutes.
If the FAA can provide real time information to ATCs they could have provided it to everyone else. They didn't and not because of a technical limitation. The logical conclusion is there must be some other reason.
Pure sophistry. I have no idea what the reasons are for not providing real time information, but obviously FAA security experts have reasons. I am not so arrogant to think I know more than they do nor to assume it's the result of politics. BTW, it's real time information or it's not. There's no such thing as 100% real time.
The logical conclusion is that it's expensive to provide real-time information due to the bandwidth and server horsepower required. Providing ATC real time information so 2 planes don't crash into each other is worthy of the expense, providing real time information so Joe Blow can track a plane on his iPhone is not worthy of that expense.
I read what you wrote. You just don't understand how this works. First of all, ATC *is* the FAA. ATC gets its data from primary and secondary (although mostly secondary) radar returns. Since you like to say that data is either real time or not, I'll put it this way - this data is *not* real time. It takes time for the radar to sweep through the airspace.
The FAA database is being populated from data *from* ATC. Therefore, this data is also not real time. This is the part that I think is confusing you. The data stream being used by tracking sites (for either Class One or Two) is coming FROM air traffic control - not the other way around.
I understood this. I didn't think an FAA db supplied the ATCs. Thanks.
Then it's not a technical reason, it's a financial reason.yg17 said:
All this discussion misses the point of this thread, which was started by the author of the software, who claimed the information displayed is real time. It is not real time, it's not even Class 1 data, it's Class 2.
Then I guess I don't understand what your issue is with this. None of it is technically real time because the technology to make it real time hasn't been implemented yet.
But for this app's intended purpose, it's real time enough. Just like what ATC sees is real time enough for them. Are you just being pedantic for the sake of being pedantic, or what?
As far as security, I don't claim to know better than the TSA or the DHS (the FAA isn't involved in security), but it's fair to ask the question - what exactly does adding a five minute delay really do? Nobody seems to be able to answer this.
My issue is documented, again, below.
I think words have meaning. When the author of the app says it's real time data and the description of the app calls it live data, I believed him, which prompted my comment re: terrorists liking the app.
The document I posted a link to is from the FAA, not TSA or DHS, so the FAA is involved. Given the propensity of terrorists to hijack planes and do other things that can kill large numbers of people, I'd think it'd be common sense not to tell them the exact coordinates of a commercial flight. Apparently, it's not common sense.
Well, the FAA is involved insofar as it's their technology. But they're not the ones making the rules. We'll just have to agree to disagree about the security thing. And I never said I have any common sense anyway.
The irony here is that the five minute delay probably helps me more than just about anybody, so I'm not complaining that it's there. Heh!
I bought this app just after Christmas and have found it very useful for my travel needs.
I didn't search like I should have, but are there threads like this one for other flight tracking applications? Ones that go on and on about potential contributions to terrorism? Why this one?
I didn't search like I should have, but are there threads like this one for other flight tracking applications? Ones that go on and on about potential contributions to terrorism? Why this one?
Thanks for understanding the value of time put into apps, especially great ones like this. $5 is very little especially given the developer probably pays the data provider a substantial amount of the proceeds just to get the information.
I couldn't have put it better myself.