For the average user, what are the negatives of Windows?

[AndyMacAndMic]

I personally don't mind Windows as a platform once your machine is setup the way you like it.

If you do go to Windows, I would recommend getting one of the machines from the Microsoft Store that's labeled Signature Edition. This means its just Windows, without any bloatware. Most machines these days come preinstalled with a myriad of junk that you have to spend time removing. I mean yes you could leave it on, but you never know if any of these apps are doing things they shouldn't. Plus if you have things loading when Windows loads, its using extra memory and CPU that could be put towards more important tasks.

The second thing I would mention are drivers. For the most part in OS X, you plug something in and it automatically loads the appropriate driver (kext), or for printers say, automatically downloads the software. Windows has got a lot better with this in recent years but I can't comment on Windows 10 as I haven't used this feature yet.

There's a good video from Linus Tech Tips regarding Windows scaling and explaining why its so bad. You can see it here:

The fourth thing I'd like to mention which has been mentioned above by others, are Windows Updates. Usually we're pretty lucky in OS X that we only have point releases, which are installed as and when they come out. Windows on the other hand has Patch Tuesday. Patch Tuesday occurs on the second, and sometimes fourth, Tuesday of each month. When Microsoft regularly releases security patches for its software products. So you are prompted far more often to install hotfixes, security updates and other updates. Some updates break things sometimes and you might spend ages Googling and reading through the release notes of what are released in an attempt to fix whatever broke (we have to do this ALL the time at work and I'd say at least three times this year a Windows patch has broken something in production). Again, probably not so much of an issue for a home user, but still an annoyance none-the-less.

Finally - the way Microsoft have changed the deployment method of Windows 10. Every 6 months or so a BIG update comes out. The migration from one version to another is pretty painless compared to the past, but I still find it annoying. Basically Windows Update will download this update in the background once released and then prompt you to install. Its like installing a brand new version of Windows and them migrating your data and apps over. On slow machines, it can literally take hours and hours and hours. The clean up doesn't seem to happen automatically from what I've found. Generally when a big Windows 10 update comes down, my partners machine has a WINDOWS.OLD directory in C:\, its there just in case something doesn't work out and you have to roll back. Its a good idea in principle, but I've found that it leaves about 19GB of old stuff around which I've never disappears on its own. I could be mistaken but I am only going on my own personal experience. OS X installer does a nice job of cleaning up after a big update which is generally on a once yearly basis.

I hope this helps

Add-on:
After a ' big' install Windows keeps the 'old' directory for 2 months (in case you want to roll back). After 2 months it is removed automatically by Windows (so Windows actually does clean up after itself). Before that you can allways remove it yourself with Window's built in disk cleaning tool.

EDIT: I made a mistake. Windows keeps the old directory for 1 month instead of 2.

 

[pacmania1982]

Windows leaves the ''

Add-on:
After a ' big' install Windows keeps the 'old' directory for 2 months (if you want to roll back). After 2 months it is removed automatically by Windows.

Ahh. Good to know. I was being a bit too impatient then. It was still around two weeks later and I was like 'What the hell??!'

 

[Dave245]

I personally don't mind Windows as a platform once your machine is setup the way you like it.

If you do go to Windows, I would recommend getting one of the machines from the Microsoft Store that's labeled Signature Edition. This means its just Windows, without any bloatware. Most machines these days come preinstalled with a myriad of junk that you have to spend time removing. I mean yes you could leave it on, but you never know if any of these apps are doing things they shouldn't. Plus if you have things loading when Windows loads, its using extra memory and CPU that could be put towards more important tasks.

The second thing I would mention are drivers. For the most part in OS X, you plug something in and it automatically loads the appropriate driver (kext), or for printers say, automatically downloads the software. Windows has got a lot better with this in recent years but I can't comment on Windows 10 as I haven't used this feature yet.

There's a good video from Linus Tech Tips regarding Windows scaling and explaining why its so bad. You can see it here:

The fourth thing I'd like to mention which has been mentioned above by others, are Windows Updates. Usually we're pretty lucky in OS X that we only have point releases, which are installed as and when they come out. Windows on the other hand has Patch Tuesday. Patch Tuesday occurs on the second, and sometimes fourth, Tuesday of each month. When Microsoft regularly releases security patches for its software products. So you are prompted far more often to install hotfixes, security updates and other updates. Some updates break things sometimes and you might spend ages Googling and reading through the release notes of what are released in an attempt to fix whatever broke (we have to do this ALL the time at work and I'd say at least three times this year a Windows patch has broken something in production). Again, probably not so much of an issue for a home user, but still an annoyance none-the-less.

Finally - the way Microsoft have changed the deployment method of Windows 10. Every 6 months or so a BIG update comes out. The migration from one version to another is pretty painless compared to the past, but I still find it annoying. Basically Windows Update will download this update in the background once released and then prompt you to install. Its like installing a brand new version of Windows and them migrating your data and apps over. On slow machines, it can literally take hours and hours and hours. The clean up doesn't seem to happen automatically from what I've found. Generally when a big Windows 10 update comes down, my partners machine has a WINDOWS.OLD directory in C:\, its there just in case something doesn't work out and you have to roll back. Its a good idea in principle, but I've found that it leaves about 19GB of old stuff around which I've never disappears on its own. I could be mistaken but I am only going on my own personal experience. OS X installer does a nice job of cleaning up after a big update which is generally on a once yearly basis.

Would you say this also applies to the Surface range of devices? they also run Windows but seem more of a premium.

Bloatware coming installed on the machine’s is annoying, I use to hate it back when I used PC’s (before 2011) i didn’t ask for it to be there so why is it was my thinking.

I know this is going to sound very cliche but from my experience with owning my first MacBook Pro since 2011 and iMac 27” since 2012 they just work! No bloatware, no crashes and so on.

However I have gained an interest just lately for the Surface range (Surface Pro in particular) but I’m very hesitant in buying one as I still love my Apple devices and MacOS (Mojave looks great).

 

[pacmania1982]

Would you say this also applies to the Surface range of devices? they also run Windows but seem more of a premium.

Bloatware coming installed on the machine’s is annoying, I use to hate it back when I used PC’s (before 2011) i didn’t ask for it to be there so why is it was my thinking.

I know this is going to sound very cliche but from my experience with owning my first MacBook Pro since 2011 and iMac 27” since 2012 they just work! No bloatware, no crashes and so on.

However I have gained an interest just lately for the Surface range (Surface Pro in particular) but I’m very hesitant in buying one as I still love my Apple devices and MacOS (Mojave looks great).

I would hazard a guess that the Surface Pro, coming from Microsoft would come bloatware free, much like a Signature Edition machine. I can’t see Microsoft installing third party software on their ‘flagship’ devices. I would be very very surprised if they did.

Nowadays it’s not difficult to find cross platform applications that are available for both Windows and OS X so I don’t think you’d have many problems if you jumped ship. iCloud control panel pretty much does on Windows what it does in OS X and you can get iTunes from the Windows Store if you need it for managing a device.

I personally am not keen on the kickstand on the Surface Pro, but I love the hinge on the Surface Book. Each person to themselves.

 

[Queen6]

I use a MBP for work and Windows 10 desktop at home. For me the main negatives in Windows are inconsistent UI and annoying updates where it will want to restart or even wake a sleeping machine at inopportune times unless you spend the time to disable that crap as well as all the tracking etc crap MS forces on you. Laptops might also suffer from bundled apps and crappy vendor software for things like special keyboard functions.

For everyday use the OS is perfectly fine though. Most will be just using their favorite web browser with maybe an email app and some light file management and the experience for that is largely the same as OSX.

For the record I am extremely disappointed with my 2016 MBP as hardware. Screen is great, but keyboard is rubbish, Touchbar is useless, dongle hell is real and trackpad is unnecessarily large for no good reason. My previous 2013 MBP had none of these issues so I don’t feel I got any kind of upgrade when my work got me the new machine. Might go Surface Pro for my next one.

Windows 10 Pro allows you to defer updates for 30/60 days. For all versions set the active connection to "Metered" this will halt all but "critical" updates, be warned this will literally shutdown all updates; Windows, Office, Apps from the MS Store, requiring the user to initiate manual updates.

I can be as much as 60 days I the field on an engineering project and my Windows based systems never reboot unless I explicitly choose them to do so, equally the updates are generally recommended and should not be deferred indefinitely. What I do, is to remain to update frequently, equally I pick the time and place if the update requires a reboot, which the majority do not.

Apple's approach is different as it's threat profile is far less than Microsoft's, equally I'm just a cautious as I am with W10 as no OS is immune to vulnerability. Personally I'm fine with Microsoft's update regime as it keeps the systems secure and cleans up the code as needed, that said I want to be in control of any system restart.

Q-6
[doublepost=1530553052][/doublepost]

Ahh. Good to know. I was being a bit too impatient then. It was still around two weeks later and I was like 'What the hell??!'

Window 10 now has Storage Sense, which basically takes care of the garbage for you. Here you will also see option to manually deletes the old version of Windows which if I remember correctly Windows's removes in two weeks

There's a great deal in Windows that the user has direct control of including telemetry and MS App suggestions. Bloatware is mostly confined to the lower priced systems with those at the higher end being relatively free of junk.

There's a learning curve with Windows 10, equally time well invested and frankly far too much BS from the past that is entirely not relevant in 2018 regarding Windows; security, stability, performance etc. and too much "Snake Oil" promising massive performance boosts if you mess with Windows Services & Registry etc. which for most part only serve to cripple functionality, potentially slow it down while the instigator sucks up ad revenue.

Want your Windows 10 system to run well stick to the options Microsoft offers and read about the implications of turning features on or off...

Q-6
[doublepost=1530553619][/doublepost]

I would hazard a guess that the Surface Pro, coming from Microsoft would come bloatware free, much like a Signature Edition machine. I can’t see Microsoft installing third party software on their ‘flagship’ devices. I would be very very surprised if they did.

Nowadays it’s not difficult to find cross platform applications that are available for both Windows and OS X so I don’t think you’d have many problems if you jumped ship. iCloud control panel pretty much does on Windows what it does in OS X and you can get iTunes from the Windows Store if you need it for managing a device.

I personally am not keen on the kickstand on the Surface Pro, but I love the hinge on the Surface Book. Each person to themselves.

Surface products come free of any third party bloatware, with just a few specific Surface applications provided by Microsoft. previously I own a 1st Gen Surface Book before passing it to my daughter, MS also threw in a 2 year international warranty which is good as Surface products are basically not repairable, with MS having an exchange program.

Surface Book I like a lot, although my current project demands a more performant notebook; i7 8750H, GTX 1070, 32Gb RAM @ 2666Hz, NVMe SSD & SSHD, full port solution. If you want a Mac this fast you'll need an iMac and a very big bag

Doubts:

As for Apple firmly consumer products today, nor likely to get any better

Q-6

 

[pacmania1982]

I'm feeling a little disappointed in my latest purchase ;0)

 

[Queen6]

I'm feeling a little disappointed in my latest purchase ;0)

In all fairness you cant really compare a duel core i5 with iGPU to a hex core i7 boosting to 4.1GHz (3.9GHz all cores) with dedicated Nvidia 1070 GPU & 32GB of fast RAM, look on the bright side you'll easily win the battery challenge

13" MBP is basically an Ultrabook, my Asus S7BS8750 (GL703GS) is a 17.3" gaming notebook that I've repurposed for my professional need. Although considered as a "thin & light" for it's class it still weighs 6lb. Has to be said the performance for a notebook is simply stellar, putting many a desktop to shame

More to the point the Asus does what I want with minimal fuss in the shortest period of time. Being able to play the likes of Witcher 3 on ultra at a solid 60FPS is most definitely a bonus First and foremost it's a workhorse and will be heading with me to my primary engineering project in Malaysia later this month where it will more than pay it's way...

Why do I use gaming notebooks? They are generally extremely performant, better one's don't throttle, have sensible cooling solutions, often you have a lot of control over performance and customisation of performance profiles, great keyboards with tremendous customisation don't underestimate being able to switch to red or cyan when working at late at night, easily user upgradable, and port solutions that work in the "real world"

Downside is generally bulkier, although now getting much better, battery life is limited, good ones similar to Mac's are not cheap, aesthetic can be on the wild side, although majority of people really like them as they are not the usual dull corporate "box" and I contract to major multinationals

New Asus impresses as it can run near silent in "Silent" mode or at the opposite end of the spectrum when set to "Overboost" effectively cooling the i7 8750H hex core CPU fully loaded and the GTX 1070 overclocked, with the GPU pulling as much as 120 Watts in isolation, CPU holding a solid 70C and the GPU not exceeding 85C, no complaints with that

Worth a watch

Q-6

 

[kazmac]

My biggest learning curve is troubleshooting and as others have said, it can take more steps to do something on Windows.

My sister has offered to get me up to speed with Windows troubleshooting, so I may take her up on it. I read up on shutting off all the privacy related settings. Right now I am waiting on hardware that interests me. I would love it if Microsoft would release a Surface Studio 2 with updated internals. That would be my next desktop if Microsoft go through with it.

Outside of that, Lenovo’s upcoming Legion cubes look interesting to me.

I haven’t touched my Acer laptop since early this year, I am not used to laptops or Windows yet, so I stopped using it.

I suppose I could have a more balanced response if I was using Windows regularly at home.

Dell are out of the question for me.

 

[SDColorado]

My issue with Windows (at least when I used it back in 2011) was that it seemed to slow down the machine I was using. I had PC’s before I switched to Mac and they were slowing down, laggy and just tiresome to use, when I switched over to a new MacBook Pro in 2011 it was a a joy and still is, the same can be said for my late 2012 iMac.

I like the look of the Surface Pro and even the Surface Book 2 BUT what puts me off BIG time is Windows.

I had that same fear when looking at a Surface Pro last year. I hadn’t used Windows since the XP days and I had pretty much the same recollection as you.

But I decided to take a flyer on a Surface Pro and aside from a couple of returns (which the Windows Store was awesome about) to get dialed in on the specs that best suited my needs, I really love the thing. I had a small learning curve trying to relearn some keyboard command and finding equivalent software, but it was minor and short. I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend one

 

[Dave245]

I had that same fear when looking at a Surface Pro last year. I hadn’t used Windows since the XP days and I had pretty much the same recollection as you.

But I decided to take a flyer on a Surface Pro and aside from a couple of returns (which the Windows Store was awesome about) to get dialed in on the specs that best suited my needs, I really love the thing. I had a small learning curve trying to relearn some keyboard command and finding equivalent software, but it was minor and short. I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend one

How do you find the Windows store? and over time does the Surface ie Windows slow down? For example my 2011 Mac has held up to be a great laptop over the years ( so as my 2012 iMac) I have been tempted to try one out alongside my iPad Pro, especially as a writer I need to be able to type comfortably for long periods of time, while i love my iPad Pro for drawing I can’t use it to write on for prolonged periods of time without hurting my wrist.

I did go into a Curry’s PC world here in the U.K. a couple of weeks ago and I was very surprised at how responsive the Surface Pro and Surface Book 2 were on the demo model, I don’t know if that’s how they are in general or if it’s something they do in store just to get people to buy them

 

[SDColorado]

How do you find the Windows store? and over time does the Surface ie Windows slow down? For example my 2011 Mac has held up to be a great laptop over the years ( so as my 2012 iMac) I have been tempted to try one out alongside my iPad Pro, especially as a writer I need to be able to type comfortably for long periods of time, while i love my iPad Pro for drawing I can’t use it to write on for prolonged periods of time without hurting my wrist.

I did go into a Curry’s PC world here in the U.K. a couple of weeks ago and I was very surprised at how responsive the Surface Pro and Surface Book 2 were on the demo model, I don’t know if that’s how they are in general or if it’s something they do in store just to get people to buy them

Hi. If you are talking about the Windows Store in the mall, as far as brick and mortar, they have been great. They asked what I did for a living, set me up as a business account, which brings discounts and better warranty. Set me up with an annual pass to come in and have them help me out with any applications that I have had issues with in switching, etc.

If you are talking about the Microsoft Store on the Surface Pro for buying apps, it’s limited. They have a few that you need, but largely it’s a computer and not a tablet like the iPad, so you don’t rely on many apps. Most programs are purchased and downloaded from elsewhere.

The machines are very responsive as long as you aren’t doing graphics heavy work. I opted for the I7 version of the Surface Pro which has the Intel Iris Plus 640 graphics, which is a bit of an upgrade from the other two options, but still an integrated graphics solution.

But no, it is nothing that they do in the store to trick you into buying them. That’s how they are when you unbox them as well. I don’t have the experience of years with it, since the 1 year anniversary of ownership will be next month, but I haven’t noticed any slowdown yet and it’s been through a couple updates of Windows 10, Spring Creators, recent Fall Creators versions.

One thing I liked about the Surface Pro is aside from a little nag about Office 365, which was OK since I subscribed anyone for a family, there wasn’t a bunch of forced upon you bloatware.

I also like the keyboard as well. Bought a little bottle of alcantara cleaned to keep it and the cover clean. It’s been my “go to” for travel, car, out on the deck, etc.

I would buy a Surface Book today as well, if they would update it to a Surface Book 3. I like the look and some of the specs of the current model, but it’s beginning to get a little long in the tooth.

 

[Dave245]

Hi. If you are talking about the Windows Store in the mall, as far as brick and mortar, they have been great. They asked what I did for a living, set me up as a business account, which brings discounts and better warranty. Set me up with an annual pass to come in and have them help me out with any applications that I have had issues with in switching, etc.

If you are talking about the Microsoft Store on the Surface Pro for buying apps, it’s limited. They have a few that you need, but largely it’s a computer and not a tablet like the iPad, so you don’t rely on many apps. Most programs are purchased and downloaded from elsewhere.

The machines are very responsive as long as you aren’t doing graphics heavy work. I opted for the I7 version of the Surface Pro which has the Intel Iris Plus 640 graphics, which is a bit of an upgrade from the other two options, but still an integrated graphics solution.

But no, it is nothing that they do in the store to trick you into buying them. That’s how they are when you unbox them as well. I don’t have the experience of years with it, since the 1 year anniversary of ownership will be next month, but I haven’t noticed any slowdown yet and it’s been through a couple updates of Windows 10, Spring Creators, recent Fall Creators versions.

One thing I liked about the Surface Pro is aside from a little nag about Office 365, which was OK since I subscribed anyone for a family, there wasn’t a bunch of forced upon you bloatware.

I also like the keyboard as well. Bought a little bottle of alcantara cleaned to keep it and the cover clean. It’s been my “go to” for travel, car, out on the deck, etc.

I would buy a Surface Book today as well, if they would update it to a Surface Book 3. I like the look and some of the specs of the current model, but it’s beginning to get a little long in the tooth.

Hi, I was referring to the Windows App Store (sorry I should of said App store in my reply) from what I’ve seen it is very limited compared to Apple’s IOS App Store. The one thing that does intrigue me is that from my research i’ve seen PC games in the Windows App Store, I’m not sure if they would run on the Surface Pro, I don’t do a huge amount of gaming but I do like the Sims (it helps with my creative flow - I don’t know why) and Age of Empires was a game I use to play on my old Windows machine before going over to Mac in 2011.

I wonder how well it would work to try a Surface Pro alongside my Mac, if I kept my iPad Pro and iMac but gave away my 2011 MacBook Pro (a friends son is having it anyway later this year for just general school work) so it would essentially be a Surface Pro, iPad Pro and my 2012 iMac.

I was very impressed with the in store demo model I tried, responsive screen, bright and great looking screen, the touch display seems to work really well. It’s just Windows that has me taking a stand back. I

remember when I had to defrag the hard drive on my old Windows machine (before 2011) and have virus software running which seemed to slow down the computer.

Not going to lie the Surface lineup has me intrigued.

 

[SDColorado]

The windows app store is definitely very limited in comparison to the IOS App store. But you have to consider that the iPad is arguably only is a tablet device and the sole source of programs is from the IOS App store. The Surface Pro, while it can be used as a tablet is primarily a very portable laptop. You have many sources *other* than the windows store for programs, games, utilities, etc. As long is it will run on Windows 10, it should run on your Surface Pro.

Sims, Age of Empires, etc. shouldn't be an issue. The integrated graphics has its limitations and I wouldn't suggest trying to play Fortnite, Battlefield 5 or the like, but Sims and Age of Empire should play just fine.

I tried the iPad Pro route myself. I tried a 9.7" Pro and a 12.9" Pro and I just couldn't find any real utility in it, other than as a large mobile computing/media consumption device. I know some people do a lot with them and have even replaced their laptops with them, but I commit myself to the effort it took to do what a laptop just does so much easier.

Full disclosure: I actually went from a 10.5" Pro to the 12.9" Pro, just couldn't find it useful enough, returned it and purchased a Surface Pro, felt I missed the Apple ecosystem too much, returned the Surface Pro for another 12.9" iPad Pro, found I missed the Surface Pro, even more, returned the iPad and picked up another Surface Pro.

FWIW the Surface Pro is the only non-Apple computing product I do currently own. I have an iMac, iPhone, MacBook Pro, Apple Watch and my older 9.7" iPad Pro that I barely use. I had a tiny annoyance at first that Apple Messages worked on everything but the Surface Pro, but quickly got over that

If you decide you want to try one out, I know the Microsoft Store has a 30-day return policy, unlike Apples limited 14. It gives a little more time to see if you can live with it, which is important when you're talking about an OS switch. I am not sure about individual retailers.

Take a look at the Surface Book 2 as well. It's definitely bigger and heavier than the Surface Pro, but has crazy good battery life when attached to the base, a good video card, *really* good if you go with the 15" model with 6GB GeForce GTX 1060.

But a lot of folks prefer the small, lightweight Surface Pro. My wife, who has also been all Mac since 2007, really wants one of the Surface Go models after using my Surface Pro a few times.

Best of luck in whatever you decide

 

[macjunk(ie)]

The Windows ecosystem definitely has better hardware. Right now I am drooling over the Thinkpad P1 workstation but I can't convince myself to buy it. Main reason: OSX.
I have tried using Windows. I personally think it is not very efficient. On my Thinkpad T470, I constantly get only 5 hours out of it. Even de-bloating the OS did not help. The same machine, with PopOS (a flavor of Ubuntu), gives me 8 hours! This is probably cause my Linux installation does not have to constantly monitor for threats as Windows has to.

Moreover, as a software developer, *Nix based systems perform the fastest compared to Windows. If I have to like and use Windows, it has to change so much that it no longer is Windows.

Linux is great but is fundamentally handicapped by lack of good third party software. A lot of the third party software in Linux is abandonware unfortunately. Even if it is not, it is usually ugly to look at. This feels so wrong on so many levels. Linux could have been THE OS that would have given us freedom from proprietary OSes had all the developers a unified vision. It looks like every one wants to develop a flavor of Linux but not many want to develop utilities for the ecosystem. So many GUIs, audio codecs doing the same thing etc....what a waste!

So begrudgingly, I stick to the Apple ecosystem even though I know that Apple in its current form is morally reprehensible. And my advice to people (of the developers kind) trying to leave the Apple ecosystem, after being entrenched in it for years, is don't even try. It is waste of time and money.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Do you guys use something like Windows Firewall Control (which is really just an interface for built in FW) to help wrangle the net connections on windows?

I have grown really accustomed to using little snitch for that over many years on the Mac. I just really like being the final say and traffic cop on who talks to my computer in and out and I’m curious on the best solutions for that on the windows side from your perspective?