Certainly the Mule storyline is actually recognisable from the books - unlike virtually anything in season 2!
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“Foundation” discussion thread
- Thread starter Smartwatchlover
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Foundation is my favorite series on Apple TV+. The photography is insane and it's really beautiful in Dolby Vision on an OLED TV. It's literally the most beautiful show I have ever seen. It even looks way better than most movies.
Of course, the story is good too. 😂
Of course, the story is good too. 😂
I have been pleasantly surprised with season 3 so far, especially after hearing about budget cuts, general upheaval and all.
Those are often good things in engineering, where constraints force you to focus and build what’s necessary not everything under the sun. Probably same happened here? lol
good points, however on a narrative TV show with lots of special effects (long production lead) required that usually isn't the case and should have been solved prior to starting the cameras.
First was the two Hollywood strikes, then if I remember correctly there was a shut down mid-production, the OG showrunner leaving, budget cuts, production issues (not sure if it was ever specified what)
First was the two Hollywood strikes, then if I remember correctly there was a shut down mid-production, the OG showrunner leaving, budget cuts, production issues (not sure if it was ever specified what)
Foundations is definitely up there as one of my favorite shows on TV+. The third season thus far doesn’t disappoint. I hope enough people are watching it that it keeps getting renewed.
This week's episode gave us some long awaited meet ups and an barely audible hint
Brother Day's costume and get up was stonery... I'm unsure exactly as to what happened at the very end when he visits
the lack of the charismatic Days was felt.
Hoping we get more Dusk, Seldon and Alexander Siddig's doctor/professor.
Brother Day's costume and get up was stonery... I'm unsure exactly as to what happened at the very end when he visits
his concubine/lover. I thought she was murdered, was she a clone - and what's up with her life mate emepror shooting lady, part of the robot religion?
Hoping we get more Dusk, Seldon and Alexander Siddig's doctor/professor.
For thus of us who remember the books and know the original "twist" about the Mule's identity, the series has definitely thrown us for a loop! I hope the show ignores the awful Foundation's Edge and its retcon'd origin story of the Mule.
As a fan of the original trilogy of novels, I am however bothered by a few things. Most of the changes are OK, but...
So much of the first season was about finding the Invictus
then in the second season, it goes down with hardly a fight? So what was the point?
The second season ends
then magically the Foundation is on "New Terminus" before the start of Season 3. So what was the point of destroying Terminus at all? Feels like change for change's sake.
Not enough Hober Mallow in Season 2, and his character didn't get to do enough, relative to the books. Missed opportunity for the series IMO.
One of the best twists of the novels was the Second Foundation's location on Trantor, even after the fall of the Empire. But in the series they were "found" and developed somewhere called Ignis. Will they somehow end up on Trantor? If so, how? Why?
PS: Speaking of the Mule...
?
As a fan of the original trilogy of novels, I am however bothered by a few things. Most of the changes are OK, but...
So much of the first season was about finding the Invictus
and it's mysterious "EXO" warning
The second season ends
with the destruction of Terminus
Not enough Hober Mallow in Season 2, and his character didn't get to do enough, relative to the books. Missed opportunity for the series IMO.
One of the best twists of the novels was the Second Foundation's location on Trantor, even after the fall of the Empire. But in the series they were "found" and developed somewhere called Ignis. Will they somehow end up on Trantor? If so, how? Why?
PS: Speaking of the Mule...
Hariton Seldon
(NB: Spoilers for the last episode - and the books which could spoil the whole season).
Give it time.
Seldon (to the Mule): Tragic story. I wonder how much of it is true...
The books didn't "show" much in the way of battles and action - preferring to have people stand around and talk about them - that won't wash in a big-budget TV show so
they'd have had problems with showing the Mule in action.
Meanwhile:
Magnifico seems to have been forgotten about after the attack on New Trantor... bet he'll turn up somewhere unexpected!
Spoiler: Good news everybody! The minstrel is actually Philip J Fry, out of the freezer again, who finally mastered the holophoner but went mad in the process.
I suspect that there might have been some mid-show re-tooling & some plot threads have been dumped, others revised.
I thought I originally read somewhere that they didn't have the rights to use material from the Robots books that got retconned into Foundation - hence the robot character was distinctly un-Asimovian and I don't think there was any mention of the Three Laws in S1/S2. However,, now we've have had the explicit reveal that
Demerzel really is Daneel
Wild mad theory:
Magnifico is still the real Mule and "The Mule" that we have seen is a robot programmed to serve him. 'cos robots with mind control powers are back in play, now.
Well, we've got the rest of the retcon given we've now got (former) Three Laws robots walking around. Also, when "old" Hari departed Ignis
through the mysterious portal, I kinda assumed that he was off to Gaia...
haven't read or listened to the books, so I am not gonna click on the spoilers above and can't really comment on most other things.
I wonder if Gaal's part time lover is a triple agent (1st and 2nd foundation and the mule) or soon will be one - without him knowing it - yet. Back when he first met the Mule and then escaped, he did have the black or bloodshot eyes. Maybe the indoctrination/control takes more time with mentalic people like him.
I am suspicious of him, despite this weeks escape. He knows Gaal and the 2nd foundation's planet.
It will be interesting to see how Gaal will end up, where Demezel said... Probably has to do with Dusks project.
I'm so happy the mayor of Seldon's vault planet is no more. Found him extremely annoying, though his demise another cruel one show of force by the Mule.
I haven't figured out why/what, but there also seems to be more to the story of the "influencer lady" aka Ms Mallow who seems kinder and smarter than many. She seems to have some kind of connection, knowledge or other interest in the magnific-music guy. And now she's probably a prisoner of the Mule. Maybe she's also a 2nd foundation person in secret?
Hari Seldon hinting that the "tragic" the Mule-kid origin story might not be true (at all)...
interesting: because I was thinking at first, could the Magnific Music fella be the other baby kid?
An even more out there theory, since he "conveniently" absent/AWOL this week - and I just had this weird feeling with his "hypnotizing music" if he's actually the real mule and "the mule" is just the muscle or a decoy of sorts?
anyway should any of it be on the right path, I'd appreciate a short note without giving too many specifics away.
I wonder if Gaal's part time lover is a triple agent (1st and 2nd foundation and the mule) or soon will be one - without him knowing it - yet. Back when he first met the Mule and then escaped, he did have the black or bloodshot eyes. Maybe the indoctrination/control takes more time with mentalic people like him.
I am suspicious of him, despite this weeks escape. He knows Gaal and the 2nd foundation's planet.
It will be interesting to see how Gaal will end up, where Demezel said... Probably has to do with Dusks project.
I'm so happy the mayor of Seldon's vault planet is no more. Found him extremely annoying, though his demise another cruel one show of force by the Mule.
I haven't figured out why/what, but there also seems to be more to the story of the "influencer lady" aka Ms Mallow who seems kinder and smarter than many. She seems to have some kind of connection, knowledge or other interest in the magnific-music guy. And now she's probably a prisoner of the Mule. Maybe she's also a 2nd foundation person in secret?
Hari Seldon hinting that the "tragic" the Mule-kid origin story might not be true (at all)...
interesting: because I was thinking at first, could the Magnific Music fella be the other baby kid?
An even more out there theory, since he "conveniently" absent/AWOL this week - and I just had this weird feeling with his "hypnotizing music" if he's actually the real mule and "the mule" is just the muscle or a decoy of sorts?
anyway should any of it be on the right path, I'd appreciate a short note without giving too many specifics away.
Which makes 1/3 or so of the first season completely meaningless if they go this route. So much of the first season was about finding the Invictus, retaking it, and bringing it back to Terminus. It was almost the entire motivation for the Anacreons' and their Grand Huntress' invasion of Terminus.
Rewatching from the beginning. Geez season one is so slow in many scenes.
what an interesting episode on so many levels and lots of surprises... hope the conclusions are just as good as the build up.
-
- Loved Seldon seemingly getting one over the Mule
- I am still unsure as to what or who Vault-Seldon actually is or isn't though.
- Guessing the "searching" robot head on the stick and the Song lady will somehow be involved to free Demezel from the Emperors programming shackles - whether Day's around for it or not. Despite what Day did to her. Don't think we've seen the last of this Day yet either.
- Gaal doing the smart move to cut ties and location for Foundation 2. Now I hope the Pritcher thing isn't drawn out. I can see that drama/betrayal/broken hearts coming. Still think he's been partially turned already by the Mule.
- Oh hello half of Dawn... nice twist, it wasn't be Demezels hands and a new accelerated copy as I thought, but rather the "spaced" one. These 3 Cleons are just interesting fellas and characters.
- Was Ms. Mallow aka "Beta?" lady mind controlling the Mule to stop him from torturing Dawn??!! Is she secretly
a Mentalic from the Foundation 2 people ???!!!
in reply to your last spoiler in a spoiler, make note: book spoiler
In the book, Bayta was the only person who actually showed affection and compassion towards the Mule without him having to prompt it with his abilities. As such he gave her a lot of leeway and left her untouched/unconverted, which led to his downfall.
Perhaps this is what we have seen here, although it's presented in a very weird way that does make it seem like she controlled this version/this part of the Mule.
I'm more and more agreeing with the theories out there that the Mule is actually 2 characters instead of one. The book character AND the TV show character (who isn't in the book, as the Mule was 100% acting from the shadows and had no visible presence).
Perhaps this is what we have seen here, although it's presented in a very weird way that does make it seem like she controlled this version/this part of the Mule.
I'm more and more agreeing with the theories out there that the Mule is actually 2 characters instead of one. The book character AND the TV show character (who isn't in the book, as the Mule was 100% acting from the shadows and had no visible presence).
Dawn was on a space station prior to being blown out the airlock. He can’t have gotten far. I’m actually surprised that no one noticed the decompression and picked him up within a couple of hours;
WooHoo! Officially renewed for season 4!!
www.hollywoodreporter.com
‘Foundation’ Renewed for Season 4 at Apple TV+
The sci-fi series is set to go back into production in early 2026.
www.hollywoodreporter.com
Goood!!!!WooHoo! Officially renewed for season 4!!
‘Foundation’ Renewed for Season 4 at Apple TV+
The sci-fi series is set to go back into production in early 2026.
OTOH I should’ve known better than thinking this would go down even similar than in the books.
I’m on board for season 4 though!
I didn’t understand the end:
Why the Mule is not the Mule?
Why with name the Mule for the Mule?
Why Sheldon is sad he is dead?
Why Brother, the old man decide to kill all the brothers?
Why Demerzel sacrificed her?
Gaal surfing in the clubs was ridiculous, where is she going?
The se mod foundation is a library?
What drugs do you need to watch this show?
Why the Mule is not the Mule?
Why with name the Mule for the Mule?
Why Sheldon is sad he is dead?
Why Brother, the old man decide to kill all the brothers?
Why Demerzel sacrificed her?
Gaal surfing in the clubs was ridiculous, where is she going?
The se mod foundation is a library?
What drugs do you need to watch this show?
NOTE: Unmarked spoilers for S3E10 - since the previous post already had them.
Marked spoilers are for people planning to read the books - I don't think they spoil the show any more but unmask them at your own risk.
Yeah - that was just random and made zero sense. It made sense in the books.
Seldon is a digital ghost and wanted to know how the other Seldon managed to get a new body.
He preferred to stay alive and let the Cleon line die with him - which is presumably how the Empire finally collapses,
Back in season 1 it was set up that the clone DNA had been tampered with & subsequent clones would diverge. This season has seen that come to a head, with all three Brothers going rogue in some fashion.
However, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that she will "get better" or turn out to have a backup - either downloaded to that skull or into her Prime Radiant doodad. It's that kinda show.
To be fair - the "space station" seemed to be (magically) suspended at a relatively low altitude above a fixed spot in New Terminus rather than in orbit, so she could have pulled a Felix Baumgartner free-fall without burning up (which is mostly due to shedding orbital velocity rather than just falling) - but not without a space suit.
Silly and completely unnecessary.
Seriously, I thought this episode was a written-by-committee mess. A season finale should tie up some of the main plot threads of the season in a satisfying way - and not in a Game Of Thrones "just massacre the protagonists and waste all the set-up" way. There was no need to change the book resolution of the Mule's identity.
Re-established my feeling that this is a potentially great, original space opera about the fall of the Genetic Empire spoiled by trying to make it an adaptation of Foundation (a universe that had already been muddied by the author trying to weld 2-4 universes together).
Marked spoilers are for people planning to read the books - I don't think they spoil the show any more but unmask them at your own risk.
Yeah - that was just random and made zero sense. It made sense in the books.
In the books, *Magnifico* was the Mule - his downfall was falling in love with Beyta, who rumbled him after everywhere they visited subsequently fell to the Mule's forces but since we only ever got second-hand accounts of the Mule's exploits the books didn't need a "decoy Mule".
Sheldon wanted to meet his clone so that they could discuss flags and Star Trek (I think your autocorrect is having problems!)
Seldon is a digital ghost and wanted to know how the other Seldon managed to get a new body.
He was supposed to walk willingly into the disintegrator ray and be replaced by Brother Day, and for a new Brother Dawn to be taken out of the tank. Something the original Cleon was prepared to accept.
He preferred to stay alive and let the Cleon line die with him - which is presumably how the Empire finally collapses,
Back in season 1 it was set up that the clone DNA had been tampered with & subsequent clones would diverge. This season has seen that come to a head, with all three Brothers going rogue in some fashion.
She is programmed to protect the Cleon line above all else - Dusk/Dark was threatening the last surviving clone so she was compelled to try and save it.
However, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that she will "get better" or turn out to have a backup - either downloaded to that skull or into her Prime Radiant doodad. It's that kinda show.
Oh yes indeed - that nearly had me throwing things at the TV. I half expected them to start playing "Surfin' USA" (from Dark Star)...
To be fair - the "space station" seemed to be (magically) suspended at a relatively low altitude above a fixed spot in New Terminus rather than in orbit, so she could have pulled a Felix Baumgartner free-fall without burning up (which is mostly due to shedding orbital velocity rather than just falling) - but not without a space suit.
Silly and completely unnecessary.
In the books, the Second Foundation was always on Trantor (with a decoy operation on Terminus) - so in that respect they're reverting to the books.
Not as many as you need to write it, apparently
Seriously, I thought this episode was a written-by-committee mess. A season finale should tie up some of the main plot threads of the season in a satisfying way - and not in a Game Of Thrones "just massacre the protagonists and waste all the set-up" way. There was no need to change the book resolution of the Mule's identity.
Re-established my feeling that this is a potentially great, original space opera about the fall of the Genetic Empire spoiled by trying to make it an adaptation of Foundation (a universe that had already been muddied by the author trying to weld 2-4 universes together).