From a hater to a believer

[Cubemmal]

Anybody else?

OK I hated the keynote. Well my remote view bombed out too, but the new design looked crazy stupid. Even after looking at it I thought they were nuts, obviously nothing was upgradable except external thunderbolt chassis which do not support graphics cards.

Then I saw the guts and realized that RAM and flash disk can be upgraded. And the case easily comes off with a thumb button, no tiny torx screws. OK, better but no dice.

After cogitating on it for a day or two I realized Apple has the right idea here. Consider

• The Cheese Grater Mac Pro isn't really that upgradable anyhow. I've put cards in it (from a very limited set of choices) and mostly had grief. I know many people have had good luck here, but consider that two new graphics cards got introduced this year and people rejoiced, compared to the 20-30 choices you have on Windows. Was the Mac Pro ever really internally upgradable? Other than RAM, disk and drives ... not really. Now we still can upgrade those three, and everything except video cards can go out on TB.
• Instead of buying a cheap low end computer and spending more money overall over time, why not just get the high end one I want and not upgrade? So, pick the cards, disks and RAM I want at purchase time.
• You know when I go on vacation I always worry about my Pro next to my desk. The rest of my stuff gets locked up, but the pro is too big. So this tiny case, well, I can easily lock it up now. Or even take it with me.
• My Pro is still noisy, the noisiest computer I have. I've gotten spoiled by silent computing, and since I'm looking forward to my next pro having some serious graphics (for gaming) I've been unsure if I would do it because of the added noise. The new pro will probably be essentially silent, I bet it is the quietest professional level extreme computer on the planet.
• Siting the pro has always been an issue. I have Cinema displays with shorty back cables and had to get a special caddy for my sit stand desk for the pro. It doesn't work very well. Now I can put this on the desk and I probably still won't hear it.
• The pro has always had bluetooth issues, partly because of how far away it is.

The new pro certainly won't make everybody happy, but for me, a software developer with a taste for high end computers and who wants a single computer that will do everything, I realized this is it and I'll be buying one.

Desktops haven't changed in decades, time for that to change really.

 

[ActionableMango]

I don't have to deal with tiny torx screws on the cheese grater either.

Your information is out of date. We do have the choice of 20-30 PC video cards now.

Even if you buy the best on day 1, it won't be the best 1 year later. That's why upgrading is nice. Also, many cannot afford the best on day 1 and would prefer to spread out the cost by upgrading as needed over months or years.

My MP is silent even with all cores pegged at 100% for hours straight. Granted, I only have the single CPU model.

Was the Mac Pro ever really internally upgradable?

Well hell yes. I have added SSDs, added HDDs, added a Blu-Ray drive, upgraded the CPU, upgraded the memory, and added a USB 3.0 PCIe card. Later this year I will be upgrading the graphics card. Every one of those things is an internal upgrade.

 

[ElderBrE]

Anybody else?

OK I hated the keynote. Well my remote view bombed out too, but the new design looked crazy stupid. Even after looking at it I thought they were nuts, obviously nothing was upgradable except external thunderbolt chassis which do not support graphics cards.

Then I saw the guts and realized that RAM and flash disk can be upgraded. And the case easily comes off with a thumb button, no tiny torx screws. OK, better but no dice.

After cogitating on it for a day or two I realized Apple has the right idea here. Consider

• The Cheese Grater Mac Pro isn't really that upgradable anyhow. I've put cards in it (from a very limited set of choices) and mostly had grief. I know many people have had good luck here, but consider that two new graphics cards got introduced this year and people rejoiced, compared to the 20-30 choices you have on Windows. Was the Mac Pro ever really internally upgradable? Other than RAM, disk and drives ... not really. Now we still can upgrade those three, and everything except video cards can go out on TB.
• Instead of buying a cheap low end computer and spending more money overall over time, why not just get the high end one I want and not upgrade? So, pick the cards, disks and RAM I want at purchase time.
• You know when I go on vacation I always worry about my Pro next to my desk. The rest of my stuff gets locked up, but the pro is too big. So this tiny case, well, I can easily lock it up now. Or even take it with me.
• My Pro is still noisy, the noisiest computer I have. I've gotten spoiled by silent computing, and since I'm looking forward to my next pro having some serious graphics (for gaming) I've been unsure if I would do it because of the added noise. The new pro will probably be essentially silent, I bet it is the quietest professional level extreme computer on the planet.
• Siting the pro has always been an issue. I have Cinema displays with shorty back cables and had to get a special caddy for my sit stand desk for the pro. It doesn't work very well. Now I can put this on the desk and I probably still won't hear it.
• The pro has always had bluetooth issues, partly because of how far away it is.

The new pro certainly won't make everybody happy, but for me, a software developer with a taste for high end computers and who wants a single computer that will do everything, I realized this is it and I'll be buying one.

Desktops haven't changed in decades, time for that to change really.

Thanks Phil, but there's a part that irritated me there...

Why would it be a good thing to have to spend the most money front he beginning instead of slowly over time as I need the upgrades, instead of buying at the beginning all I might, or not, need, just in case I may need it?

Being able to upgrade as needed not only makes the computer live longer, it helps you have exactly what you need, and not more. That's kind of the point for most of us with these machines.

 

[Cubemmal]

I don't have to deal with tiny torx screws on the cheese grater either.

I didn't say you did

Your information is out of date. We do have the choice of 20-30 PC video cards now.

News to me, when I go to OWC and search for graphics card I get four entries.

Even if you buy the best on day 1, it won't be the best 1 year later. That's why upgrading is nice. Also, many cannot afford the best on day 1 and would prefer to spread out the cost by upgrading as needed over months or years.

My point is that when I look at my upgrade history I spent more money upgrading, rather than if I had gotten a better computer to begin with and lived with it. I'm certainly not for non upgradability which is why I won't buy another mac laptop.

My MP is silent even with all cores pegged at 100% for hours straight. Granted, I only have the single CPU model.

I have the single CPU and its never silent. I have a quiet office and can easily hear a low hum.

I have added SSDs, added HDDs, added a Blu-Ray drive,

All still upgradable

upgraded the CPU,

non sanctioned, supported or under warrantee but OK. I was so thankful that when my daughter card blew I could get it fixed at the Apple store for $120. If I had a upgraded CPU I wonder if they would have done it.

upgraded the memory,

Still supported

and added a USB 3.0 PCIe card.

Yeah, me too. Its been nothing but trouble.

Later this year I will be upgrading the graphics card. Every one of those things is an internal upgrade.

I'm not trying to convince you guys to believe in this, I'm just saying it works for me and I changed my mind.

 

[Kyles3399]

Thunderbolt can do graphics cards.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=889096&is=REG&Q=&A=details

Didn't say it was cheap. Thunderbolt 2 could make even better. Also picture plugging it into a MBA.

 

[Cubemmal]

Thanks Phil, but there's a part that irritated me there....

Phil?

Why would it be a good thing to have to spend the most money front he beginning instead of slowly over time as I need the upgrades, instead of buying at the beginning all I might, or not, need, just in case I may need it?

My thinking, which works for me, is that if I just get the CPU and video I want I can use it for longer and not have to overall spend more by upgrading later. With my 2009 MP I got the single CPU, reasoning I'll upgrade over time. Later I regretted not getting the dual. Same with video, I should have just gotten a better one to begin with, I just ended up buying the same card later.

Being able to upgrade as needed not only makes the computer live longer, it helps you have exactly what you need, and not more. That's kind of the point for most of us with these machines

OK, like I say I'm not trying to convince you that this is the bomb, I'm saying I hated the idea but have come to like it. I'm tired of trying to upgrade my MP, its usually just gotten me in trouble when I did much more than memory and drives.

At any rate TB upgrades (external boxes) should be much more simple and seamless.

 

[echoout]

Thunderbolt can do graphics cards.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=889096&is=REG&Q=&A=details

Didn't say it was cheap. Thunderbolt 2 could make even better. Also picture plugging it into a MBA.

No it can't.

I've been working off one of these for months from my MBP and Thinderbolt is a pain.

 

[slughead]

Thunderbolt can do graphics cards.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=889096&is=REG&Q=&A=details

Didn't say it was cheap. Thunderbolt 2 could make even better. Also picture plugging it into a MBA.

For the price of 2 of those I can get build just about the best gaming PC on the market (only 1 GPU, but it's a GTX780!). And by the way, that doesn't even come with the card, nor does it support 16xPCIe :X

 

[Cubemmal]

For the price of 2 of those I can get build just about the best gaming PC on the market (only 1 GPU, but it's a GTX780!). And by the way, that doesn't even come with the card, nor does it support 16xPCIe :X

My understanding is that cards can only be used over TB if the drivers have been TB enabled. Which isn't a lot of work, but it has to be done. Graphics cards don't presently support this capability.

The OWC TB page for their external cage details this.

 

[MacVidCards]

Thunderbolt can do graphics cards.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=889096&is=REG&Q=&A=details

Didn't say it was cheap. Thunderbolt 2 could make even better. Also picture plugging it into a MBA.

Stop handing out Apple Kool Aid.

Read the description:

"PCIe cards such as video capture, media transcoding, audio processing and fast data storage"

You'll note they skipped GPU cards, yes? There is a reason. THEY DON'T WORK.

 

[Topper]

For the price of 2 of those I can get build just about the best gaming PC on the market

So, are you going to?

 

[RcktMan77]

Thunderbolt can do graphics cards.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=889096&is=REG&Q=&A=details

Didn't say it was cheap. Thunderbolt 2 could make even better. Also picture plugging it into a MBA.

Nowhere in that description does it say that graphics cards are explicitly supported, nor should it as OS X does not support adding a graphics card over Thunderbolt. Further, benchmarks by Tom's Hardware have shown that the PCI-E bandwidth over a Thunderbolt controller becomes fully saturated with a mid-range card such as an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460 under Windows. The internal dual AMD card setup being offered in the forthcoming Mac Pro offers far superior performance than the aforementioned mid-range card. Thus, given the 2.5x PCI-E v.3 bandwidth bottleneck of Thunderbolt v.2, I don't see an applicable upgrade path for the Mac Pro unless Apple has something left to announce.

These external Thunderbolt enclosures are primarily targeted at laptop users in which a discrete mid-range desktop graphics card is a substantial improvement over the Thunderbolt controller than their built-in integrated graphics. As such, those hoping there is some way in which to upgrade this forthcoming Mac Pro's graphics cards are going to be sorely disappointed; especially, given Apple's track record with the current Mac Pro dating back to 2006.

 

[slughead]

So, are you going to?

Yes, actually. I've priced one out at $1800 (again, twice the price of one of those lol)... now all I need is $1800. I'm going to keep my 5,1--possibly the last computer Apple allowed users to actually upgrade without paying an insane premium. I'll just do the KVM thing to play games. I don't use my Pro for professional stuff anymore anyway.

"Think Different... and by different, I mean exactly the same configuration as everybody else"

----------

Stop handing out Apple Kool Aid.

Read the description:

"PCIe cards such as video capture, media transcoding, audio processing and fast data storage"

You'll note they skipped GPU cards, yes? There is a reason. THEY DON'T WORK.

Sir, I'd very much like your opinion on the new Mac pro, considering you've been a 3rd party graphics enthusiast/salesman for years. Have you posted anything yet you can link to?

 

[thedarkhorse]

Who will be the first to mod an old mac pro chasis to hold the new mac pro?

Have a TB raid inside, usb interface to the optical drive. Modify/replace the case ports to come off hubs from the mac pro I/O, except thunderbolt, you'll need direct access to connect that(maybe just have a bunch of TB cables coming out the back). Then somehow rig the power button to activate the one inside on the new mac pro(maybe with some servos ).

 

[slughead]

Who will be the first to mod an old mac pro chasis to hold the new mac pro?

Have a TB raid inside, usb interface to the optical drive. Modify/replace the case ports to come off hubs from the mac pro I/O, except thunderbolt, you'll need direct access to connect that(maybe just have a bunch of TB cables coming out the back). Then somehow rig the power button to activate the one inside on the new mac pro(maybe with some servos ).

My guess is the New Mac Pro is going to have a price point far above all the homebuilt parts. Why not just do a hackintosh inside a Powermac G5 case at that point? (I've seen a few online)?

 

[Topper]

Yes, actually. I've priced one out at $1800 (again, twice the price of one of those lol)... now all I need is $1800. I'm going to keep my 5,1--possibly the last computer Apple allowed users to actually upgrade without paying an insane premium. I'll just do the KVM thing to play games. I don't use my Pro for professional stuff anymore anyway.

Good for you.
We are pretty close on this one.
I'll keep my 3,1.
I'm looking at a $2,600 "Titan" PC (and kvm)......now all I need is the $2,600

 

[andiwm2003]

I would be interested to hear from pro's in different types of jobs what they think about the MacPro cylinder design from the viewpoint of practicality.

It seems to me that with fast TB connections you can get all the expansion you need. At the same time if you run a office for 20 people in cubicles it might actually be better to have small computers for the work at hand. Ho much do pro's really need to have upgrades inside the machine? Isn't it better to have your extra HD's and all that external, by that easy to change independent of size, shape or whatever?

 

[chrono1081]

This is a good video to watch for those who aren't sure:

http://devstreaming.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2013/109xxxjfr9zgakbgrzxk23n2/109/ref.mov

It's basically Pixar and The Foundry showing the power of Mari on the new Mac Pro. Its phenomenal.

EDIT: This link doesn't work anymore :/ Scroll down to my next post (a few posts down) for how to get to the video.

 

[WMD]

I like the new machine, too...but to respond to your considerations:

The Cheese Grater Mac Pro isn't really that upgradable anyhow. I've put cards in it (from a very limited set of choices) and mostly had grief. I know many people have had good luck here, but consider that two new graphics cards got introduced this year and people rejoiced, compared to the 20-30 choices you have on Windows. Was the Mac Pro ever really internally upgradable? Other than RAM, disk and drives ... not really. Now we still can upgrade those three, and everything except video cards can go out on TB.

You can use nearly any PC video card in the cheese grater, provided you can get the right power cables. (Especially since Lion, which added more video card drivers.) It also accepts a range of PCI-E storage, network, and professional I/O devices. I'll admit that those can go into the theoretical TB breakout box, but once you have said box, you're back to where you were in size.

Instead of buying a cheap low end computer and spending more money overall over time, why not just get the high end one I want and not upgrade? So, pick the cards, disks and RAM I want at purchase time.

Most people can't (or won't) spend that kind of money at once. Maxed-out Mac Pros can hit $10k today.

You know when I go on vacation I always worry about my Pro next to my desk. The rest of my stuff gets locked up, but the pro is too big. So this tiny case, well, I can easily lock it up now. Or even take it with me.

The cheese grater weighs at least 40lbs., usually more. Thieves won't want to carry that thing out.

I don't have much to disagree with past that, except maybe get extension cables for your displays?

Ultimately, I think the iCylinder has great potential, but should be judged on its own merits - not how it compares to the current design. It's just not the same type of computer.

 

[Danboard]

I would be interested to hear from pro's in different types of jobs what they think about the MacPro cylinder design from the viewpoint of practicality.

I would welcome the small footprint of the design of the new Mac Pro. I run a Mac Pro 3.1 with a 30" Cinema Display and a Wacom Cintiq. I can't put the Mac Pro on the ground because of the trouble of re-routing the video cable from the Cinema Display, so I have the tower on top of a pedestal desk beside my main work table.

With the smaller new Mac Pro, I can see that it would clear up much more space for me, with the Mac Pro placed on top of my desk. If I get a Thunderbolt Display to replace my old 30", then it would make my workstation look more stream lined.

 

[echoout]

I would be interested to hear from pro's in different types of jobs what they think about the MacPro cylinder design from the viewpoint of practicality.

It seems to me that with fast TB connections you can get all the expansion you need. At the same time if you run a office for 20 people in cubicles it might actually be better to have small computers for the work at hand. Ho much do pro's really need to have upgrades inside the machine? Isn't it better to have your extra HD's and all that external, by that easy to change independent of size, shape or whatever?

I'm a freelance motion graphics designer and have been waiting for this announcement for a very long time with money in the bank while making due with my Thunderbolt-laden MBP. I thought on it for a day after the announcement and then ordered my first Windows machine in 14 years. I need a wicked fast, expandable, heavily-supported workstation with my choice of hardware THIS year.

I feel weird but I can't wait to have rackmounted 16 cores crankin' in Cinema 4D and a Titan driving After Effects.

 

[Tesselator]

This is a good video to watch for those who aren't sure:

http://devstreaming.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2013/109xxxjfr9zgakbgrzxk23n2/109/ref.mov

It's basically Pixar and The Foundry showing the power of Mari on the new Mac Pro. Its phenomenal.

Your link doesn't work correctly. What's the name of the video and which section is it in so we can navigate to it.

Thanks!

 

[deconstruct60]

Nowhere in that description does it say that graphics cards are explicitly supported,

It is unlikely any retailer is going to have the complete support documentation on a product listed in their caption. It probably won't say one way or the other whether any one specific card is supported. They certainly list the vendors name though. And the vendors web page is extremely likely to be more informative.

From the documentation tab on the product's webpage leads to this URL

http://www.magma.com/thunderbolt-compatibility

Not too hard to do the same thing at sonnet. Link inside the "Tech specs" tab for their enclosure products.

http://www.sonnettech.com/support/charts/thunderbolt/index.html

There still aren't any eGPU solution that have been validated ( people have hacks working, but those aren't supported. )

nor should it as OS X does not support adding a graphics card over Thunderbolt.

This is probably a mix of Apple and the video cards drivers ( Nvidia's and AMD's responsibility). Who has the bigger slice of the "fix it" pie is debatable.

Doesn't particularly generically work any better over in Windows or Linux land right now either.

Further, benchmarks by Tom's Hardware have shown that the PCI-E bandwidth over a Thunderbolt controller becomes fully saturated with a mid-range card such as an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460 under Windows.

Actually not so much with the GTX 460

"... Dipping back to the GeForce GTX 460 reveals very little difference at all. ..."
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pci-express-graphics-thunderbolt,3263-7.html


Of course at this point the 460 is rather dated. It does have impact on the 6970. Would be worse on any GPU card that tried to optimially use PCI-e v3.0 ( of which neither one of these are. )


Another minor measuring problem with the benchmarks is that the standard PC configuration sends the Thunderbolt PCI traffic through the IOHub which in turn bounces it up through DMI. (it is another bottleneck if also cranking SATA and USB 3.0 SuperSpeed traffic). For at least a couple of the upcoming Mac Pro's TB controllers that will go straight into the high speed PCI controller and the memory.

. Thus, given the 2.5x PCI-E v.3 bandwidth bottleneck of Thunderbolt v.2, I don't see an applicable upgrade path for the Mac Pro unless Apple has something left to announce.

I haven't seen any evidence that TB v2 bumps up PCI-e data traffic to v3 speeds at all (same old x4 PCI-e v2 on/off ramps to TB network). In fact, now the traffic is more highly merged they will need more headroom and overhead to maintain network QoS. There was no aggregate backbone speed increase with v2 ; just shuffling of bandwidth that was already there.

 

[chrono1081]

Your link doesn't work correctly. What's the name of the video and which section is it in so we can navigate to it.

Thanks!

Oh darn it was working earlier today. It was a way to see the vid without logging in.

Go here:

https://developer.apple.com/wwdc/

And click on the "Videos" tab at the top. Sign in (if you don't have a dev account they are free to register) and scroll down to "Painting the Future".

 

[Tesselator]

Anybody else?

For me no. I was never against it. I have questions though and like any system I want to know two main things:

1. What is it good for?
2. Is it good for me?

And of course these branch out extensively until one or both are answered.

----------

Oh darn it was working earlier today. It was a way to see the vid without logging in.

Go here:

https://developer.apple.com/wwdc/

And click on the "Videos" tab at the top. Sign in (if you don't have a dev account they are free to register) and scroll down to "Painting the Future".

Got it, thanks! Watching...