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Sir, I'd very much like your opinion on the new Mac pro, considering you've been a 3rd party graphics enthusiast/salesman for years. Have you posted anything yet you can link to?

It is a quite predictable outcome.

Rather than think up new things to say, this reader comment at ars tech in response to Dave Girard's article says everything quite well:

Quote:
Ask any Mac Pro users where “small size” sits on their list of workstation needs and they will tell you it's down at the bottom, squarely between “should make my bed in the morning” and “covered in fur.”

This, more then anything, is the crux for me. I wanted to sleep on it overnight and see if I felt differently after cooling down and really giving it some thought. Nope, I still hate this design, largely because I just can see absolutely no positive, affirmative argument for it. Having the machine be this small, as the only pro offering, just isn't valuable at all. In the thread discussing the new Mac Pro in the Mac Ach, we did have someone talk about how they really do carry an MP around all over the world on aircraft, and that the current one just barely makes. However, even in that rarified and extreme case, the need could have been met with a case half as big as the old one which still would be 4x the size of this and still allow at least a couple of standard PCIe slots, a decent number of 2.5" drive bays if nothing else, and 8 memory slots. It still would be a smaller, sexier and more portable system, while not utterly and completely gutting it. And that has even more knock-on effects, like creating a requirement for Thunderbolt 2 (more like TB 1.1), which in turn pushes out availability since the Falcon Ridge chipset is due to launch long after IVB-E becomes available (hopefully Apple got some sort of special deal here, otherwise we aren't seeing even this system until December).

For those who don't know, we were really close with the Mac Pro to having across-the-board It Just Works 3rd party graphics card support at long last too. Since around a year ago Nvidia in particular has been fantastic about supporting the Mac, and for 2008 or newer MPs it has been possible to just pop in a 400, 500 or 600 series card (within the limits of heat and power of course). The final missing piece was UEFI, the old Mac Pros used an outdated hybrid EFI 1.1, whereas the UEFI PC graphics cards starting to appear naturally use UEFI (as do Apple's newer non-MP systems). If that had been updated, then we really looking forward to an era of no more "Mac" graphics cards, but just being able to slot in anything. Having that snatched away at the last minute is yet another huge let down.

Pricing has the potential to at least mildly ease the pain, but not much, and even then I don't think the signs are at all hopeful. Apple's approach is fundamentally less efficient and there just isn't much if any cost savings from their design, if anything it's the opposite. Having to use bigger, few DIMMs for memory means paying a lot more money for the same thing. Having to use PCIe SSD internally means paying a lot more for the same thing and not being able to adapt as newer stuff comes out (and the SSD market is moving extremely rapidly right now). If Apple is offering a few normal cards it'd help, but at this point there is every reason to be pessimistic that they'll require workstation cards, charge workstation prices regardless of what deal they're getting privately and pocket the difference.

This really is like the Cube all over again, with the exception that last time everyone was able to just plump for a PowerMac whereas this time Apple seems to have decided the proper solution is to force everyone to get their little sculpture by making it the only offering. It's an answer to a question that no one was asking, and the epitome of form over function. If this was a $1k-$2k middle machine with an upgraded Mac Pro remaining then it'd actually be pretty exciting, but as the dedicated top level replacement it sucks. They've made it more expensive, and however small the main hub is a rat's nest of cables sprouting out from a hub to a bunch of extra boxes is not pretty or portable.

So to my true regret no, I just don't see any positives here. "As small as possible even to the extent of sacrificing core functionality" makes sense in other parts of Apple's lineup, a portable is mostly defined by, well, it's portability, and something like the Mac Mini can actively benefit also. But the best that anyone can argue (and lots of people did argue already) for this system is "well, you can sort of get close to most of the old functionality for a much higher price and in a much less elegant way." That's really too bad.
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http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/06/a-critical-look-at-the-new-mac-pro/
 
On Thunderbolt for GPU enclosures...

Actually not so much with the GTX 460

"... Dipping back to the GeForce GTX 460 reveals very little difference at all. ..."
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pci-express-graphics-thunderbolt,3263-7.html

If you pick and choose your benchmarks, yeah. In reality though, it seems to depend on the game...

wow_thunderbolt.png


" Pull both cards out over Thunderbolt, however, and the interface's latencies and limited bandwidth give the 6970 more of an opportunity to excel. "
[...]
"At least you don't have to worry too much about procuring a flagship graphics card, right? Our benchmarks show us that a GeForce GTX 460 is, in many cases, just as fast as the higher-end Radeon HD 6970 as a result of the interface constraints of Thunderbolt. Pinching off that bus means that, at a certain point, it doesn't matter how big of a GPU you attach to the host."

Emphasis mine, as a Mac user :)
 
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Thunderbolt external GPU

Tom's hardware says:
"The entire experience is completely plug-and-play. Install the card, the appropriate drivers, and the combination simply works."
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pci-express-graphics-thunderbolt,3263-8.html

It's not all peaches and cream though. According to the article, the two huge problems are (A) several hundred dollars just for an enclosure, and (B) no method of providing supplemental power for video cards.

So we aren't there yet.

But even if Thunderbolt gets there some day, there will still be performance loss and physically speaking it will still be a rat's nest of extra power cables, extra connection cables, and extra boxes where there wouldn't be with a clean internal solution.

OP, it's great this solution works for you. For me, upgrades are important and internal is preferable to external. The new Mac Pro's upgrade path is depressingly similar to that of a MacBook Air.
 
If you pick and choose your benchmarks, yeah. In reality though, it seems to depend on the game...

Doesn't it always in graphics benchmarks? ;) There would be no AMD vs. Nvidia wars is all the benchmarks came out with the same winner every time. Alot of games are tweaked into local mini/max corners where it is some subset of cards and driver work-arounds that make a difference.
 
Doesn't it always in graphics benchmarks? ;) There would be no AMD vs. Nvidia wars is all the benchmarks came out with the same winner every time. Alot of games are tweaked into local mini/max corners where it is some subset of cards and driver work-arounds that make a difference.

True, but the article even points out that as the GPUs get more powerful, the bottleneck becomes more apparent. Maybe TB2 will do better... ?
 
Tom's hardware says:
"The entire experience is completely plug-and-play. Install the card, the appropriate drivers, and the combination simply works."
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pci-express-graphics-thunderbolt,3263-8.html

It's not all peaches and cream though. According to the article, the two huge problems are (A) several hundred dollars just for an enclosure, and (B) no method of providing supplemental power for video cards.

So we aren't there yet.

But even if Thunderbolt gets there some day, there will still be performance loss and physically speaking it will still be a rat's nest of extra power cables, extra connection cables, and extra boxes where there wouldn't be with a clean internal solution.

OP, it's great this solution works for you. For me, upgrades are important and internal is preferable to external. The new Mac Pro's upgrade path is depressingly similar to that of a MacBook Air.

Tom's Hardware mentioned it was plug and play on Windows where all the benchmarks were run. No support for this exist in Mac OS X currently. Regardless, this isn't an upgrade path for the Mac Pro given the Thunderbolt bandwidth bottleneck, but rather a potential option for laptops if it is ever supported in OS X.
 
Oh darn it was working earlier today. It was a way to see the vid without logging in.

Go here:

https://developer.apple.com/wwdc/

And click on the "Videos" tab at the top. Sign in (if you don't have a dev account they are free to register) and scroll down to "Painting the Future".

Pretty cool I guess. I didn't think it was super fast or anything. I use ZBrush mostly so it's kinda hard to tell though. The presenter seemed to think it was fast and the developer said it was the fastest on any out-of-the-box machine he'd seen. But that to me is double-talk for:

  • They paid me to say this,
  • I haven seen many out-of-the-box systems,
  • Of course upgrading a base system will be faster than this MacPro.
without actually having to say any of that. Hehe, gotta watch out for those qualifying phrases ya know. :)



.
 
Pretty cool I guess. I didn't think it was super fast or anything. I use ZBrush mostly so it's kinda hard to tell though. The presenter seemed to think it was fast and the developer said it was the fastest on any out-of-the-box machine he'd seen. But that to me is double-talk for:

  • They paid me to say this,
  • I haven seen many out-of-the-box systems,
  • Of course upgrading a base system will be faster than this MacPro.
without actually having to say any of that. Hehe, gotta watch out for those qualifying phrases ya know. :)



.

And we don't know any of the rest of story.

Like, Apple offered them 50 new Mac Pros for "evaluation purposes". Apple offered free advertisement via being at WWDC. Apple offered ......let's face it, most of the people complaining about new Mac Pro might have a different take if Apple sent them some free ones to play with and then asked them to come up on stage and endorse.

If they had it side by side with a current 12 core and it was kicking the 12 cores butt, then a useful comparison. (And I mean with a 7970 in it, comparing with a 5770 would have been silly too)
 
True, but the article even points out that as the GPUs get more powerful, the bottleneck becomes more apparent. Maybe TB2 will do better... ?

Probably not because that is not its primary purpose. Thunderbolt allocates tons of bandwidth to what comes OUT of the GPU. It is not particualry trying to move the GPU out of the box.

Intel's and AMD's direction is to merge the CPU and GPU into a single package. That is where things are heading toward. That is one of the future focused drivers on this new design. There is tons of R&D being spent now and over next 2-4 years to make this design more viable. Folks looking entirely in the rear view mirror won't see it coming at all.


Thunderbolt would need cheap, fast fiber to appear to make a transition that might change this. I don't think that is going to arrive until after the CPU-GPU much deeper though.
 
Sigh...

Why are all of the "I'm a Believer!" threads started by first time users of Mac Rumors forums?

:rolleyes:
 
I shall remain a haberdasher until pricing has been advertised. Using metrics based off of current parts prices, Apple would have to sell the machine at a loss for me to be interested.
 
And we don't know any of the rest of story.

Like, Apple offered them 50 new Mac Pros for "evaluation purposes". Apple offered free advertisement via being at WWDC. Apple offered ......let's face it, most of the people complaining about new Mac Pro might have a different take if Apple sent them some free ones to play with and then asked them to come up on stage and endorse.

If they had it side by side with a current 12 core and it was kicking the 12 cores butt, then a useful comparison. (And I mean with a 7970 in it, comparing with a 5770 would have been silly too)

Yup! Like the Maya OpenGL demo they did about 10 years ago where they showed the cool OpenGL plus game shaders working in tandem on G5 (I think) with ATI card vs. whatever the Intel chip was at the time with the same card. That was a nice on-stage demo.
 
Well hell yes. I have added SSDs, added HDDs, added a Blu-Ray drive, upgraded the CPU, upgraded the memory, and added a USB 3.0 PCIe card. Later this year I will be upgrading the graphics card. Every one of those things is an internal upgrade.

Except for the CPU (and memory, which the new Mac Pro can do), all those things can be external upgrades as well.


Like, Apple offered them 50 new Mac Pros for "evaluation purposes". Apple offered free advertisement via being at WWDC. Apple offered ......let's face it, most of the people complaining about new Mac Pro might have a different take if Apple sent them some free ones to play with and then asked them to come up on stage and endorse.

My understanding was there was only one Mac Pro and they had only received it several weeks prior. The one they had wasn't even in the real case, just a giant box.
 
"Ultimately, I think the iCylinder has great potential, but should be judged on its own merits - not how it compares to the current design. It's just not the same type of computer."

This.

Unfortunately, as noted elsewhere in this thread, it appears Apple will not be giving us an option.
 
My thinking, which works for me, is that if I just get the CPU and video I want I can use it for longer and not have to overall spend more by upgrading later. With my 2009 MP I got the single CPU, reasoning I'll upgrade over time. Later I regretted not getting the dual. Same with video, I should have just gotten a better one to begin with, I just ended up buying the same card later.

Wait, so you wished you'd of sprung for the dual processor model in 2009, but you like this Mac Pro with no dual processor option? And if you want to get to 12 cores, you're looking at a $2000 CPU, where as in a dual processor machine, you could have 16 for maybe $800-ish in CPU costs?

And what happens with the GPU? You're going to have 2x FirePro W5000-W9000 options it looks like. You're telling me you'd like to max that out? You're talking about $12K (at least) machine.

OK, like I say I'm not trying to convince you that this is the bomb, I'm saying I hated the idea but have come to like it. I'm tired of trying to upgrade my MP, its usually just gotten me in trouble when I did much more than memory and drives.

And you aren't going to do more than that in this Mac Pro either. Upgrades to drives will be external. The internal one will likely be a bit of pain, or at least expensive. The RAM will hopefully be a piece of cake. And in the previous model it was at least possible to do user upgrades in other respects for those who can. With the new model, that will likely be next to impossible or prohibitively expensive.

At any rate TB upgrades (external boxes) should be much more simple and seamless.

Only for things that are already easy inside the previous Mac Pro, such as storage, or trivial, such as monitors or hubs. You aren't upgrading the video card through TB. You aren't upgrading the CPU through TB. So what's easier?

----------

So to my true regret no, I just don't see any positives here. "As small as possible even to the extent of sacrificing core functionality" makes sense in other parts of Apple's lineup, a portable is mostly defined by, well, it's portability, and something like the Mac Mini can actively benefit also. But the best that anyone can argue (and lots of people did argue already) for this system is "well, you can sort of get close to most of the old functionality for a much higher price and in a much less elegant way." That's really too bad.
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Well said. At first I thought this could be really neat if priced right (meaning $1500-$2000 base). But then the reality that this is likely to cost >=$2499 for the base model set in. Then I figured..."yep, its an expensive trash can that you'll have to plug a lot of expensive TB junk into in order to get the same functionality as the current Mac Pro."

It might be nice to see an E5, single GPU, 2xTB port version in that price range, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
Phil?

My thinking, which works for me, is that if I just get the CPU and video I want I can use it for longer and not have to overall spend more by upgrading later. With my 2009 MP I got the single CPU, reasoning I'll upgrade over time. Later I regretted not getting the dual. Same with video, I should have just gotten a better one to begin with, I just ended up buying the same card later.

At any rate TB upgrades (external boxes) should be much more simple and seamless.

that's when you go to ebay.com and buy a dual processor processor board with heatsinks. Following that you stay on ebay and choose between a plethora of processors, used or hop over to newegg.com and choose from a plethora of new warranted processor. Single becomes dual..
 
My thinking, which works for me, is that if I just get the CPU and video I want I can use it for longer and not have to overall spend more by upgrading later. With my 2009 MP I got the single CPU, reasoning I'll upgrade over time. Later I regretted not getting the dual. Same with video, I should have just gotten a better one to begin with, I just ended up buying the same card later.

I would just make it a 6 core. You need more than just an additional cpu to change it over. There are guides on here that mention all of the details, but it may not be worthwhile compared to going for 6 cores.
 
I don't have to deal with tiny torx screws on the cheese grater either.
I didn't say you did



News to me, when I go to OWC and search for graphics card I get four entries.




My point is that when I look at my upgrade history I spent more money upgrading, rather than if I had gotten a better computer to begin with and lived with it. I'm certainly not for non upgradability which is why I won't buy another mac laptop.



I have the single CPU and its never silent. I have a quiet office and can easily hear a low hum.

The hum is created by vibrations from your harddrive(s). That is partially fixable. Try leaving your case lock half open and see if it helps. I now have a 100% SSD based system and my Mac Pro is COMPLETELY silent. I can't hear it running from 3 feet away. With 2 harddrives it had a little bit of hum/noise but nothing that was problematic. All my slave PC's are much noiser (from a 10 feet distance and they are Shuttle's with lowest fan speed).

The Mac Pro was always a very silent machine compared to almost anything else.
 
Sigh...

Why are all of the "I'm a Believer!" threads started by first time users of Mac Rumors forums?

:rolleyes:

Because if Apple employees had accounts prior to the release of this thing, they wouldn't have made this computer in the first place?
 
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I don't have to deal with tiny torx screws on the cheese grater either.

The hum is created by vibrations from your harddrive(s). That is partially fixable. Try leaving your case lock half open and see if it helps. I now have a 100% SSD based system and my Mac Pro is COMPLETELY silent. I can't hear it running from 3 feet away. With 2 harddrives it had a little bit of hum/noise but nothing that was problematic. All my slave PC's are much noiser (from a 10 feet distance and they are Shuttle's with lowest fan speed).

The Mac Pro was always a very silent machine compared to almost anything else.

Mine is all SSD. It's very quiet but certainly not silent, there are a bunch of fans in there and it has a low frequency hum.

----------

Sigh...

Why are all of the "I'm a Believer!" threads started by first time users of Mac Rumors forums?

:rolleyes:

Because I am excited enough to actually want to talk about it?

Look folks, I don't want to argue and am not trying to convince you it is the best solution. Just saying I think it is a good solution and I'm looking forward to a practically silent high end workstation.

If it's not silent or is priced to the stratosphere (both unlikely) then I think they made a mistake.
 
A new economic model

Apple have designed this new Mac Pro to suit them in two major ways.

First, it is designed to be very small and proprietary like their other systems so that once your Apple Care runs out it will be economically inviable to repair so the economic model is to replace every three years. OK, with the current Mac Pro if the logic board goes it is a similar situation but with the new one you have key components like the fan, the SSD drive, perhaps the chips themselves , the power supply as well as the logic boards will all need to be sourced from Apple and won't be cheap.

Secondly, whereas most workstations are designed to be flexible with the balance between CPUs, RAM, GPUs, GPGPUs something the user decides with the new Mac Pro the balance is fixed and weighted towards GPU/GPGPU and away from CPU/RAM. This fits in with developing software for their other systems but is much less general purpose.

I wouldn't say I'm a hater - but I'm unlikely to be in the market as a buyer. It is odd that people do have strong feelings though. I think this comes down to Apple being the keeper of OSX. OSX is unique in being Unix with a friendly face. Linux is much less plug and play and Windows isn't Unix and doesn't come with all the Unix tools and compilers etc.
 
Apple have designed this new Mac Pro to suit them in two major ways.

First, it is designed to be very small and proprietary like their other systems so that once your Apple Care runs out it will be economically inviable to repair so the economic model is to replace every three years.

I'm unlikely to be in the market as a buyer.
Hehe, I wonder if it comes with a sticker saying "No Serviceable Parts Inside"?

I think I've decided tho, I'll be buying one. Man, a tube shaped computer... That's just a must - even if I never even use it. I'll sit it right nest to my Sharp X68k Pro, my O2, and my CDTV - all firsts. :)

8383c3c1573b9c207439b8d1c1e41cf1.jpg


SGI_O2.jpg


commodore-cdtv-1ggr-800.jpg


mac-pro-gawkers-980x653.jpg

Oh yeah!!!
 
It is odd that people do have strong feelings though. I think this comes down to Apple being the keeper of OSX. OSX is unique in being Unix with a friendly face. Linux is much less plug and play and Windows isn't Unix and doesn't come with all the Unix tools and compilers etc.

That's a very good point .


Maybe even the most important one for long-time Mac workstation users - if the choice of OS has a major impact on their work and business .

This is mainly an issue for individuals and small companies, who use OS specific software and hardware on a small scale; that makes changing the OS a significant expense and will hit the workflow heavily .

If it wasn't for OSX, Apple hardware could easily be replaced by other offerings, by anyone, and these MP discussions would be purely academic .

For anyone who actually has a dog in the fight, it doesn't matter what the new MacPro can or can not do, if it's small or big; it's whether or not you have to consider moving to a different OS .
 
First, it is designed to be very small and proprietary like their other systems so that once your Apple Care runs out it will be economically inviable to repair so the economic model is to replace every three years.

Living in the UK, there's a problem with this.

Anything you buy has to last for a reasonable amount of time and has to be fixed by the seller if it doesn't. Now if I buy a car I don't expect it to work for ten years without any fault, but I expect that I can repair it if something breaks for many years. And the same would be true for a Mac Pro.

"X stops working after 3 1/2 years" may very well be a fault that would be deemed acceptable by a court. But "X stops working after 3 1/2 years and cannot be fixed" may very well be unacceptable, and the fact that it cannot be fixed would be a fault that was present when you bought the machine.
 
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