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Full Frame SLR Advice
- Thread starter smallcoffee
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Smart decision I must say! Well, have some patience & till the price gets low & then hit a purchase.
If you want to stay with Canon and want Full Frame, I agree with georgeinnj, the best option is a used or refurbished Canon 6D. Yeah, it's a bit slower than the other Canon FF cameras, and yeah it only has 9 AF points. But for landscape photography, those deficiencies should not matter. You're shooting stationary scenes (mostly), not moving subjects like football players or birds. I think the 6D would be great for you given your budget and the subjects you say you will be shooting.
A Sony A7RII is probably out of the OPs budget but a Sony is probably still a worth a consideration. A Sony A7 or preferably a Sony A7II (because of its better auto focus) would be an ideal choice if they save up. With an EF to FE adapter you can get somewhat decent auto focus and the EVF allows far easier manual focus. Sony right now is probably the company to go with if you want fantastic image quality at an affordable price (for full frame at least) and are buying into an system for the first time. If you want a Canon then probably wait until the new generation of the full frame is released and see what pops up.
I know I couldn't. I have a 5D M3 and a Sony A6000. The Sony even has the apparently crappy kit lens were as for the 5D I have only L lenses and I cannot tell which picture was shot with which.
To the OP. As a Canon user myself I would suggest the 6D. Very good camera. Pictures absolutely comparable or at low light even better then the 5D M3
You are buying an SLR and a 6D at that to emulate AA's style? All is famous work was done using a tripod and hand held meters. You would be best off buying an older used medium format film camera. The money you save would buy two lifetimes of film and processing. Seriously. I have an 70's vintage MF system and it's market value, lenses and all is under $500 and the quality will completely blow away any current "full Frame" dSLR as long as we keep the ISO at 100 or less.
OK, buy the 6D is it a great SLR body but don't buy it for Zone System, static shots.
Get a second hand 5d2 if you can afford it. Obviously its old, the tech inside, but the only thing I really miss when I'm using this when compared with other bodies I own, is that auto ISO doesn't work in Manual.
In the right hands the 5d2 is still a camera capable of taking world class images.
In the right hands the 5d2 is still a camera capable of taking world class images.
DSLR system is dying.
I had them all: The original 5D, the 5D II and still have the 5D III with a lot of lenses.
BUT: Now the mirrorless cameras are decent. At least some of them.
I absolutely recommend you NOT to buy in a SLR system but to invest in the future: the mirrorless camera world.
You get more for the money with mirrorless cameras.
Fujifilm has the APS-C -sized system of their X-Cameras. Buy a XE-2 and some the decent lenses and you will never regret. Fujifilm developed and produced for more than a decade Lenss for HAsselblad. They know all about lenses.
The X-Pro and XE system are made for enthusiasts - and evidently BY ENTHUSIASTS. You have to understand the enormous adaptivity with more well-customizable and ability of pre-sets than with even semi-Pro cameras. So - most people do not inform themselves enough and so have not the chance to really work with all the (partially unique) features.
The fantastic OLED-Viewfinder itself and the informations in the viewfinder are fully customizable. The UI is Leica-like: You use it "like in old days" but with full modern technology. It´s the best of both worlds.
As for picture quality: Overwhelming! Both concerning the lens as well as the body itself. But also because Fujifilm did revolutionize sensor-technology with its X-Trans-sensor. So - with its "X-Trans"-APS-C sensor you get the same quality as with a full frame 35mm Bayer-sensor! This is not marketing by Fujifilm, it is reality!
about their sensor technology:
http://thedigitalcamera.net/a-compa...rans-against-the-nikon-d700-full-frame-bayer/
I stlll have the 5DIII with all its lenses, but I use nearly 100% nothing but the Fujifilm XR- system.
Nearly all the new Viewfinder cameras are nothing but copies of the Fuji X-Pro and XE-system.
Another good thing: Fujifilm cares about their customers. The first model with exchangeable lenses, the X-Pro1 was damn good but had some flaws in the UI. Fujifilm worked rapidly and hard on the firmware and now, some years later, its UI and firmware is absolutely impressive.
A profound review about my recommendation, the XE-2:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-e2
Although the following review is still about the X.-Pro1, you get an idea of the camera:
https://luminous-landscape.com/fuji-x-pro1-review-part-2/
As for budget:
If you buy the Xe2 with the "standard" Zoom XF18-55mmF2.8-4 R LM OIS you have alöready a decent body and a decent lnens for less than 1/3 the price of a 5DIII body.
The XR 1,4/35 is nothing but overwhelming, the XF 10-24 OIS as well.
In just 3 Years, Fujifilm established a full lens Ecosystem of decent quality:
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/xf_lens/roadmap/index.html
The only con (at the very beginning in 2012) was a Autofocus clearly slower than of DSLR systems.
They worked hard on it and with the EX-2 and modified AF-systems of the newer lenses this is still less fast but gets near DSLRs. At least enough for everything not being sport photography - if you choose the right AF-modes and frames.
Maybe you think I am just a fanboy - but I am not. But I am extremely convinced of this camera. At least convinced of the XE2 system. And during some decades now I used the Leica SLR-system with nothing but their prime- lenses and since 2005 Canon 5D Mk I, II, III with nothing but their pro-lenses.
I still have the Canon system, but I use it only for special purposes like with their fantastic T/S-lenses or when I need extremely rapid AF for fast sport. The rest is for my highly appreciated Fujifilm XE-system.
I had them all: The original 5D, the 5D II and still have the 5D III with a lot of lenses.
BUT: Now the mirrorless cameras are decent. At least some of them.
I absolutely recommend you NOT to buy in a SLR system but to invest in the future: the mirrorless camera world.
You get more for the money with mirrorless cameras.
Fujifilm has the APS-C -sized system of their X-Cameras. Buy a XE-2 and some the decent lenses and you will never regret. Fujifilm developed and produced for more than a decade Lenss for HAsselblad. They know all about lenses.
The X-Pro and XE system are made for enthusiasts - and evidently BY ENTHUSIASTS. You have to understand the enormous adaptivity with more well-customizable and ability of pre-sets than with even semi-Pro cameras. So - most people do not inform themselves enough and so have not the chance to really work with all the (partially unique) features.
The fantastic OLED-Viewfinder itself and the informations in the viewfinder are fully customizable. The UI is Leica-like: You use it "like in old days" but with full modern technology. It´s the best of both worlds.
As for picture quality: Overwhelming! Both concerning the lens as well as the body itself. But also because Fujifilm did revolutionize sensor-technology with its X-Trans-sensor. So - with its "X-Trans"-APS-C sensor you get the same quality as with a full frame 35mm Bayer-sensor! This is not marketing by Fujifilm, it is reality!
about their sensor technology:
http://thedigitalcamera.net/a-compa...rans-against-the-nikon-d700-full-frame-bayer/
I stlll have the 5DIII with all its lenses, but I use nearly 100% nothing but the Fujifilm XR- system.
Nearly all the new Viewfinder cameras are nothing but copies of the Fuji X-Pro and XE-system.
Another good thing: Fujifilm cares about their customers. The first model with exchangeable lenses, the X-Pro1 was damn good but had some flaws in the UI. Fujifilm worked rapidly and hard on the firmware and now, some years later, its UI and firmware is absolutely impressive.
A profound review about my recommendation, the XE-2:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-e2
Although the following review is still about the X.-Pro1, you get an idea of the camera:
https://luminous-landscape.com/fuji-x-pro1-review-part-2/
As for budget:
If you buy the Xe2 with the "standard" Zoom XF18-55mmF2.8-4 R LM OIS you have alöready a decent body and a decent lnens for less than 1/3 the price of a 5DIII body.
The XR 1,4/35 is nothing but overwhelming, the XF 10-24 OIS as well.
In just 3 Years, Fujifilm established a full lens Ecosystem of decent quality:
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/xf_lens/roadmap/index.html
The only con (at the very beginning in 2012) was a Autofocus clearly slower than of DSLR systems.
They worked hard on it and with the EX-2 and modified AF-systems of the newer lenses this is still less fast but gets near DSLRs. At least enough for everything not being sport photography - if you choose the right AF-modes and frames.
Maybe you think I am just a fanboy - but I am not. But I am extremely convinced of this camera. At least convinced of the XE2 system. And during some decades now I used the Leica SLR-system with nothing but their prime- lenses and since 2005 Canon 5D Mk I, II, III with nothing but their pro-lenses.
I still have the Canon system, but I use it only for special purposes like with their fantastic T/S-lenses or when I need extremely rapid AF for fast sport. The rest is for my highly appreciated Fujifilm XE-system.
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Far more than just being decent. The Sony A7RII is the best overall camera according to DxO Labs. It is Sony and Nikon battling for the top spots. You don't see another 35mm brand until you get past the first 20 or so bodies.
http://www.dxomark.com/cameras#hideAdvancedOptions=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankDxo
Personally I went micro four thirds to really reduce the size, weight, and cost of both the bodies and lenses.
I think to suggest DSLR's have had their day is a little premature. Yes there are other options out there now but just because mirroless has come on quite a bit, don't be so quick to write off DSLR's.
Most of what I read on here is the switch to save weight. Well I can honestly say I'm still okay to carry a DSLR and 3-5 lenses around. If you want to combine your photography with other activities, again I see why people want a smaller system. Personally I don't. If I'm doing photography, I'm not trying to combine it with other things as well.
But we are all different.
I don't want to go through menus and submenues to find the setting I need. With a bigger camera the layout works much better for my big fat hands.
I realise DSLR sales are not what they once were (and never will be again), but you could say the same for DVD recorders. Are they obsolete? No not yet.
I think there will always be a smaller (more discerning?) DSLR market.
Popularity does not make something the best, otherwise the iPhone is the best camera in the world!
Heck there are still quite a lot of people shooting SLR's! Now I'm willing to bet that DSLR's will be around for the rest of my life time.
Most of what I read on here is the switch to save weight. Well I can honestly say I'm still okay to carry a DSLR and 3-5 lenses around. If you want to combine your photography with other activities, again I see why people want a smaller system. Personally I don't. If I'm doing photography, I'm not trying to combine it with other things as well.
But we are all different.
I don't want to go through menus and submenues to find the setting I need. With a bigger camera the layout works much better for my big fat hands.
I realise DSLR sales are not what they once were (and never will be again), but you could say the same for DVD recorders. Are they obsolete? No not yet.
I think there will always be a smaller (more discerning?) DSLR market.
Popularity does not make something the best, otherwise the iPhone is the best camera in the world!
Heck there are still quite a lot of people shooting SLR's! Now I'm willing to bet that DSLR's will be around for the rest of my life time.
I dunno. Frankly, I'd look at lenses first, then bodies. And at your uses. For example, I still prefer an optical viewfinder for night time stuff over even a very good OLED VF.
OTOH, many of the mirrorless do better video, are lighter, etc etc etc.
OTOH, many of the mirrorless do better video, are lighter, etc etc etc.
I don´t know what Viewfinder of what Brand you tested…
Look "through" a OLED viewfinder of the Fujifilm XE-series. And will turn 180°
In bad light conditions you see clearly everything. It´s nearly like a Night-Vision device for military purposes.
I NEVER had such a fantastic experience, not even with the 5D III….
I have a Sony Alpha 99. It has a pretty good image quality, plus you can usually find bundles with it, a Sony flash and vertical grip on eBay (all new).
I haven't used the A7 series, but Sony usually has pretty good quality. Plus, more and more 3rd party companies make lenses for them now. Check out http://www.dyxum.com/lenses/results.asp for reviews on various lenses for Sony cameras. It gives options for A-mounts, E-mounts, APS-C, Full Frame, prime, zoom & macro lenses.
I haven't used the A7 series, but Sony usually has pretty good quality. Plus, more and more 3rd party companies make lenses for them now. Check out http://www.dyxum.com/lenses/results.asp for reviews on various lenses for Sony cameras. It gives options for A-mounts, E-mounts, APS-C, Full Frame, prime, zoom & macro lenses.
Canon 5D3 frequently goes on sale for around $1900. So if you watch sites you can get it cheap. I went Canon for two primary reasons: 1) The lens selection is broader and more available than other platforms... and 3rd party lenses come out first for Canon and 2) the MagicLantern hack for the Canon is superb... giving the camera the ability to shoot RAW video makes it a great crash cam for projects.
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My only complaint with mirrorless is that you are at the mercy of the screen for everything.
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My only complaint with mirrorless is that you are at the mercy of the screen for everything.
The price for second hand Canon 5D mkIII might go down further because there will soon be a release of the sucessor...
I agree that already the 5DIII is a wonderful DSLR with a lot of great options and the first 5D with a real PRO AF. Sturdy as well: went with all models of the 5D line while it was raining cats and dogs - no issues neither with the body nor the lenses... Many Pros use this camera.
Just how would the various Canon cameras rank in terms of autofocus (AF) "Action" performance for sports/birds?
As per the above, it sounds like the 5Dmk3 beats out the 6D.
I currently have a 7D (original, not 7Dmk2) and am looking at getting a second body, as my only backup right now is an ancient 20D. The 7D was a big step up in AF Action performance ... where would we rank the 7D in the above list?
I will second this (and third and fourteenth if necessary). I shoot Nikon, but if someone says they want Canon, call me crazy, but I think they mean Canon.
Sure, could could drop it all and go Sony, but for the price of a FF sony and some FF lenses, you could get the 5D and a boat. Many of those APSC lenses that are so common on the NEX line (including my camcorder) are not the same. Being able to pick up lenses for cheap(er) is nice.
There is a lot to be said for mirrorless, but it is not without its faults. MY D750 is comparable in size to the cameras I have carried (film and APSC) all my life. Ever talks about how much smaller they are. Well, if they were THAT much smaller, there wouldn't be room for a user interface. Everything would be jammed onto menus in a touch screen. No thanks. Fortunately, the A7 line didn't go that route.
Lets look at that size difference.
Sony A7 II weighs 599 Grams while Nikon D750 weights 750 Grams. The Canon 5D3 is a little heftier at 803g, and the 6D is 680g. The Sony is about a GoPro (or pair of socks) lighter than the heavier cameras. As an aside, the extra batteries you will have to carry will more than offset this as the mirrorless camera doesn't have as much battery life. At 70 grams each, getting the same shot capacity as my Nikon will bring you up to my weight.
Sony A7 II is 127 * 97 * 60 mm. The Nikon is 141 * 113 * 78. So about 15mm less in each dimension. The Canon 5D III is 152 * 116 * 76mm and the 6D 145 * 111 * 72mm. Is it helpful, sure. Is it end of the world game changing? Not close. Those extra batteries you are carrying will offset some of this. With regard to my Nikon, you would also have to carry a flash unit. While you don't always want one, and right above the lens is a terrible place to keep one, the best light is the one you have with you. Canon also doesn't include a pop-up flash, so you do not get that advantage.
If you like the Sony, by all means use it. Enjoy it. But it is not as much as a game changer as sony would have you believe. That 270 shot battery life (less if you spend a lot of time looking through the EVF waiting for a shot) forces you to carry ~3 batteries for every one on a Canon 6D (~1090 shots) AND you have to swap them out. Just looking through the lens on the Canon doesn't cost you anything. Does the A7 have built in GPS? The 6D does, and that might be of value to landscape photographer.
The 5D III has finally got the super-Pro AF of the top-models.
The AF is nothing else than fantastic!
As for the Mk II and Mk I models of the 5D I have to say that AF was their weak point and the last 7D model had ia better AF indeed. This changed radicalöy with the amazing 5D Mk III !
The video section is also very good - and the picture quality and available light potential as well...
I can not more than just highly recommendate the 5DIII
The NEWEST 1D model are again a little bit better - but also a lot more expensive.
As I wrote already: The 5D IV wil be soon enter the market - I recommendate to wait (if possible) for falling prices of both new and second hand 5D III when 5D IV enters the market or (if money is no issue) for the 5DIV itself... ... It is not at all by coincidence that many (and more and more) Pros work with the 5D models...
As for the "argument" of risk of shutter failure: I simply don't know anyone who had an issue.
I 'd NEVER buy a second hand body from a Pro (they use it 10-20 times more intense than amateurs) , but always from an amateur. Canon guarantees a MINIMUM of 150.000 Exposures for the Shutter!!!!! You will never ever reach this high number of exposures!
AND: you can easily readout the total shuter actions on the 5D - so no problem for second hand Purchase - and the 5D are vers sturdy and reliable. If you have some Pro- lenses as well, you can participate in the fantastic pro-customer service, which is nothing but outstanding - also for precisely re-adjusting body and lenses for AF the best possible... For free... .
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DxoMark 35mm FF body test rankings
sports: http://www.dxomark.com/cameras/sens...Options=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankLln
landscape: http://www.dxomark.com/cameras/sens...Options=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankDyn
portrait: http://www.dxomark.com/cameras/sens...tions=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankColor
overall: http://www.dxomark.com/cameras/sens...Options=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankDxo
sports: http://www.dxomark.com/cameras/sens...Options=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankLln
landscape: http://www.dxomark.com/cameras/sens...Options=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankDyn
portrait: http://www.dxomark.com/cameras/sens...tions=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankColor
overall: http://www.dxomark.com/cameras/sens...Options=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankDxo
I can personally recall waiting for the 5Dmk2 to ship ... and my subsequent disappointment with how its AF hadn't been improved, so I ended up waiting another year for the 7D.
I think where my question is evolving to today is the 5Dmk3 versus the 6D. Looking at the ranking stuff that MCAsan provided, it looks like the 6D edges out the 5Dmk3 on sport focusing and a few others, but doesn't take my legacy CF cards.
Thoughts on the video of the 5Dmk3 vs 6D? I've been pleasantly surprised at how I've done with the video on the 7D, although in many cases I'm looking more at super wide angle applications, whose DOF is more forgiving. It looks like the 7Dmk2 is 60fps with autofocus, whereas both of the FF's are 30fps ... not sure about autofocus (chart is blank).
Out of my budget, particularly if I stretch things to pick up a used 400mm f4L DO IS for around $3K; there's a relevant trip in the planning stages, which is why I'm looking at forking out some bucks to upgrade gear.
Understood, but waiting may fall later than my schedule and given all of the other expenses on the table, I'd really like to keep the budget for a body under $2K...thus, I'm probably on the "sooner & cheaper" decision tree, especially to include time in the schedule for training/familiarization/practice.
I had a shutter button fail on a used 20D... maybe a year after I picked it up. Not the same thing as a shutter itself, but it still took the camera out of service.