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Boil

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
3,173
Stargate Command
So we have the M1, an entry level SoC with:

4 Performance cores
4 Efficiency cores
up to 8 GPU cores
16 Neural Engine cores
up to 16GB (LPDDR5?) RAM

This is in the 13" MacBook Air, the 13" MacBook Pro, & the Mac mini...

I would expect at least two more (if not three) M-series chips in the ASi Mac line-up...

The M1B (Bloomberg), targeting the 14" MacBook Pro & 16" MacBook Pro, possibly the 24" iMac...

8 Performance cores
4 Efficiency cores
up to 16 GPU cores
24 Neural Engine cores
up to 32GB (LPDDR5?) RAM

The M1X, targeting the 27" iMac & (possible) Mac Cube / xMac...

16 Performance cores
4 Efficiency cores
up to 32 GPU cores
32 Neural Engine cores
up to 64GB HBMnext RAM

The M1Z, targeting the newly designed smaller Mac Pro...!

32 Performance cores
4 Efficiency cores
up to 64 GPU cores
64 Neural Engine cores
up to 128GB HBMnext RAM

This last one, the M1Z, this could be TWO SoCs, one on either side of the HBMnext stacks...?

Heck, if that if an actual workable solution, maybe Apple goes in for four SoCs & up to 256GB HBMnext...!?!

(...reminds me of the AMD slide for future Epyc / GPU interaction with Infinity Fabric 'stitching' it all together...)

Discuss...!!! ;^p
 
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bobmans

macrumors 6502a
Feb 7, 2020
598
1,751
There's still a lot to replace. I'll try to group them into families a bit:

Family M1:
Macbook Air
Low-end 13" Macbook Pro
Low-end Mac Mini
Low-end 21.5" iMac (Not released today?)

Family M2:
High-end 13" Macbook Pro Model (the quad core ones)
Low-end 16" Macbook Pro Model (the 6 core one)
High-end Mac Mini model (the 6 core one)
High-end 21.5" iMac model (the 6 core one)
Low-end 27" iMac model (the 6 core one)

Family M3:
High-end 16" Macbook Pro model (the 8-10 core ones)
High-end 27" iMac model (the 8-10 core ones)

Family M4:
iMac Pro
Mac Pro
 

DHagan4755

macrumors 68020
Jul 18, 2002
2,264
6,146
Massachusetts
There's still a lot to replace. I'll try to group them into families a bit:

Family M1:
Macbook Air
Low-end 13" Macbook Pro
Low-end Mac Mini
Low-end 21.5" iMac (Not released today?)

Family M2:
High-end 13" Macbook Pro Model (the quad core ones)
Low-end 16" Macbook Pro Model (the 6 core one)
High-end Mac Mini model (the 6 core one)
High-end 21.5" iMac model (the 6 core one)
Low-end 27" iMac model (the 6 core one)

Family M3:
High-end 16" Macbook Pro model (the 8-10 core ones)
High-end 27" iMac model (the 8-10 core ones)

Family M4:
iMac Pro
Mac Pro
I don't think Apple will go with that scheme like Intel (i3, i5, i7, i9). I think it will M1 for medium performance, H1 for high performance, and X1 for extreme performance. Something along those lines....
 

Tankmaze

macrumors 68000
Mar 7, 2012
1,707
351
I'm certain we will see some of M1 variants.

And just like the presentation said "the 13-inch MBP is the ultimate expression of what M1 chip can do"

I'm guessing there will be M1X,Z etc for the higher end configuration.

The problem is, we don't know when this will arrive. It could be on a March event or even June WWDC for Apple to update the iMac and 16" MBP.
 

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the8thark

macrumors 601
Apr 18, 2011
4,628
1,735
My opinion is Apple will either use an MXZ where X is the generation number, M1Z for 1st generation of desktop Macs.
Or they will pick a different letter like D-series.
It all depends on how similar the desktop silicon is to the mobile silicon.

The one consistency we have across all of the different Apple series of chips is the number equates to generation number only.

It's MXZ or another letter like D-series.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
3,173
Stargate Command
My opinion is Apple will either use an MXZ where X is the generation number, M1Z for 1st generation of desktop Macs.
Or they will pick a different letter like D-series.
It all depends on how similar the desktop silicon is to the mobile silicon.

The one consistency we have across all of the different Apple series of chips is the number equates to generation number only.

It's MXZ or another letter like D-series.
So you are saying the Mac mini is not a desktop, but it is a laptop...?!?

Ain't gonna be no D-series...

M1 is the first gen Apple Silicon Mac product designed for the low-end hardware...

There will more than likely be a M1X & M1Z, and then some M1? for the Mac Pro...
 

iBug2

macrumors 601
Jun 12, 2005
4,539
863
I doubt the desktop chips will be called M1. I think M stands for mobile.
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,467
6,570
US
I am disappointed by 16GB RAM maximum. Also it's dumb that in 2020, default RAM is 8GB on the MacBook Pro.
No different than it was with the two port Intel MBP models on Monday before the announcement. Why is it suddenly a problem now?

Presumably the four port models will transition sometime in 2021. Then you’ll have your higher base ram, and higher configurable ram models. For now, you still have those, but you’re buying Intel
 

norsemen

macrumors regular
Apr 2, 2007
173
78
A14T and an Apple GPU (code name Lifuka) was recently leaked by Chinese Times. If so, Apple seems to go with two families of Apple Silicon for Macs.
 

Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,146
7,001
The Mac mini desktop computer, which has a shiny new M1 chip in it, begs to differ...

M stands for Mac...
Looks like whatever the higher chips are called the mini might get at least one of them as well to replace the lingering Intel machines with >16GB RAM options

M1 with up to 16GB RAM and 2TB storage

M1X with up to 64GB RAM and 8TB storage (this would be the 16" MacBook Pro chip)

M1T with up to 128GB RAM and 8TB storage (this would be the iMac chip)
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Possible, but Mac mini always used mobile chips.

Before 2018 , yes. But Apple made a jump in 2018 to Desktop (although in a BGA mounted package). Not really a good reason to backslide the Mini. Especially if have better performance/watt ecosystem to jump to.

This M1 powered Mini is closer to what Apple has in the line-uip with the "way past comatose" , non-Retina iMac . That too has a mobile MBA CPU and configuration on it that is basically a laptop in a iMac case. The objective is to be "more affordable" so it maximizes parts used in more high volume Mac ( or where high volume since the laptops it is component based on have moved on. Now it is just cheaper ... old as dirt parts. ). The M1 in this Mini is a substantive "blackslide" in terms of system I/O. It is also there out because for now it is the only option possible.

The M-series line up for now is probably incomplete.

The line between mobile and desktop may be blurred with the upcoming MBP 16" and iMac 24" SoC. At least those Mini's wouldn't have to sacrifice on ports and number of output displays supported.

A contributing problem here is that Apple SoC's gimp the output ports down to what Apple feels is sufficient for thin, " minimal port area" laptops. That's a substantive disconnect for a desktop system solution which is going to require a different mindset when it comes to setting the SoC provisioning requirements.

Apple can kept the chopped down mobile variant around like the non-Retina iMac to hit price points. It can also be the same treatment where it drifts in revisions to use cheaper components over longer lifespans.
 

neinjohn

macrumors regular
Nov 9, 2020
107
70
Given the benchmarks that are showing up for the M1 and past rumours I expect only three classes on the first series based on CPU count: 4+4, 8+4 and 12+4 .

8+4 for top Mini, iMac 21, iMac 27'', MacBook Pro 13'' high-end and 16''
12+4 for iMac Pro (or top iMac 27'') and Mac Pro (maybe 2?)

I expect the diference to be on CPU frequency, thermal space, GPU count, Neural-Engine count and memory allowed on the package. Also I don't think Apple will update every single model every year and new cheaper models can be launched with last year SoC before the new one arrives (like the iPhone SE 2).
 
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aeronatis

macrumors regular
Sep 9, 2015
198
152
Given the benchmarks that are showing up for the M1 and past rumours I expect only three classes on the first series based on CPU count: 4+4, 8+4 and 12+4 .

8+4 for top Mini, iMac 21, iMac 27'', MacBook Pro 13'' high-end and 16''
12+4 for iMac Pro (or top iMac 27'') and Mac Pro

I expect the diference to be on CPU frequency, thermal space, GPU count, Neural-Engine count and memory allowed on the package. Also I don't think Apple will update every single model every year and new cheaper models can be launched with last year SoC before the new one arrives (like the iPhone SE 2).

I agree that the SoC line-up will be quite simplified. Just like you say, I expect something like M1X and M1Z on top of M1:

M1X could be 8+4 CPU cores, 16 GPU cores, 16 NE cores, up to 64 GB unified memory.

M1Z could be 12+4 CPU cores and 16 NE cores (GPU options could be configurable like 24, 32, 40 etc...).

M1X for MacBook Pro 14", MacBook Pro 16", iMac 24" and iMac 27"; thus removing power gap between screen sizes (Also for a higher end Mac Mini or whatever it is going to be called.). Also the chip would support higher number of Thunderbolt ports and external screens. iMac 27" would most probably have the best sustained performance.

M1Z could be for iMac Pro (if it will continue) and the new smaller Mac Pro. How modular the Mac Pro would be is beyond my imagination for now.
 
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neinjohn

macrumors regular
Nov 9, 2020
107
70
Yep. The GPU core on a high-end MacBook Pro 13'' is my major doubt because battery life would go to hell with actual model (I imagine). Maybe that is the reason or necessity for a redesign, larger size, more battery and still a few GPU cores less than the 16''.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Given the benchmarks that are showing up for the M1 and past rumours I expect only three classes on the first series based on CPU count: 4+4, 8+4 and 12+4 .

8+4 for top Mini, iMac 21, iMac 27'', MacBook Pro 13'' high-end and 16''
12+4 for iMac Pro (or top iMac 27'') and Mac Pro (maybe 2?)

I expect the diference to be on CPU frequency, thermal space, GPU count, Neural-Engine count and memory allowed on the package.

It probably won't be just iGPU core count. It is one thing for Apple to be "king of iGPU" vendors. However, to cover the iMac 27" BTO options they'd have to cover the 5700 XT with 16GB of GDDR6 there is little in the M1 to indicate they are going to get anywhere near that with the basic architecture approach they have.

Coupling the iMac 27" ( and 21-24" ) too tightly with the MBP 16" will cause problems. The connections off of the SoC is a substantive gap area that Apple probably needs to cover. There probably should be an M-series that is centered on the iMac . That is where the bulk of the desktop sales are. The SoC for the 16" and the "High end" 13" are probably still in the "conserve logic board " space zone and will make compromises on I/O connections. ( e.g., only 4 ports , perhaps still trying to "do it all" with an iGPU ).

The Neural Engine count probably won't change any more than the integrated image processor (and Secure Enclave and rest of the stuff that primarily sits behind Apple Foundation library code. ) will change across the line up.

8+4 MBP 14" , MBP 16" , ( rest of Mini line-up if has enough I/O ) , "entry or lower half" iMac 24"
12+4 iMac 24" , 27" , possible the "half tall" Mac Pro ( and rest of Mini lin-up if not covered above ) .
16+4+ more substantive PCI-'e I/O subsystem iMac Pro ( or top end iMac) , Mac Pro


There is a non-Retina that Apple needs to transition also. Apple might throw an M1 one at that while switching it to the now legacy Retina screen. Alternatively, coupled to the MBP 14".



Also I don't think Apple will update every single model every year and new cheaper models can be launched with last year SoC before the new one arrives (like the iPhone SE 2).

the M1 seems coupled to the unreleased A14X. If the baseline here is the iPad Pro processor than it is more as the shared base then it will 1.5-2 year cycle for the lower end M-series and probably something in the range 3-4 years for the top end Mac Pro one.

The volumes of SoCs here is roughly on an order of magnitude less than the iPhone ( and the iPad subset that depends upon the iPhone "hand me down" SoCs . ) . Perhaps coupling the lower end Macs to the iPad Pro gets it to yearly, but a pretty good chance it doesn't. That is another reason for the phased M-series roll out. M1 out ... large month block ... M1X ... large month block ... M1Z , then Apple can still have steady stream of "new" Macs .

it is also going to be easier to do relatively much smaller dies on the newest, "bleeding edge" process. The bigger the Mac SoCs get the longer Apple will probably wait to move them "forward" onto the future fab process . (waiting for maturity and yields to go up. )

Because the Phones need physically smaller SoC packages ( and hence smaller dies ) they don't have that constraint. The Macs are in a higher performance space that is programatically going to force larger dies which means later "move forward" times.
 
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Boil

macrumors 68040
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Oct 23, 2018
3,477
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Stargate Command
I agree that the SoC line-up will be quite simplified. Just like you say, I expect something like M1X and M1Z on top of M1:

M1X could be 8+4 CPU cores, 16 GPU cores, 16 NE cores, up to 64 GB unified memory.

M1Z could be 12+4 CPU cores and 16 NE cores (GPU options could be configurable like 24, 32, 40 etc...).

M1X for MacBook Pro 14", MacBook Pro 16", iMac 24" and iMac 27"; thus removing power gap between screen sizes (Also for a higher end Mac Mini or whatever it is going to be called.). Also the chip would support higher number of Thunderbolt ports and external screens. iMac 27" would most probably have the best sustained performance.

M1Z could be for iMac Pro (if it will continue) and the new smaller Mac Pro. How modular the Mac Pro would be is beyond my imagination for now.

GPU options like that would mean too many completed mobo SKUs to stock...

Apple will most likely segment the APUs by overall core counts, the more "powerful" the Mac is supposed to be, the higher the core counts on the SoC...

Updating my speculated APU line-up...!

M1 - 4 P / 4 E / 8 GPU / 16 Neural Engine / 16GB LPDDR5 / two USB4 ports
MacBook Air / 13" MacBook Pro / Mac mini

M1X - 8 P / 4 P / 16 GPU / 24 Neural Engine / 64GB LPDDR5 / four USB4 ports
14" MacBook Pro / 24" iMac / Mac mini

M1Z - 16 P / 4 E / 32 GPU / 32 Neural Engine / 128GB HBMnext / four USB4 ports
16" MacBook Pro / 27" iMac / 30" iMac Pro / Mac Cube

M1T - 32 P / 6 E / 64 GPU / 64 Neural Engine / 256GB HBMnext / eight USB4 ports
Mac Pro (Threadripper-sized package)

Apple discrete GPU (Lufika) - 64 GPU / 64 Neural Engine / ?? HBMnext ??

Mac Pro may have DDR5 DIMMs implemented as a secondary RAM array, up to 1TB...?

All desktops will have two USB-A ports & a HDMI port...?
 

thenewperson

macrumors 6502a
Mar 27, 2011
992
912
I'm thinking:

M1X - 8P + 4E, 16 - 20 GPU cores, up to 4 TB / USB 4. 13" (14)/16" MBP, higher Mac mini, 21" (24) iMac

M1Y - 12P + 4E (considering even 16 on this), something more for GPU (ImgTech's recent B-series config?), similar port situation as X. 27" (32) iMac (Pro?)

M1Z - 28P + 4E in Mac Pro (possibly less P cores, I just think they'd want to match the current top end core count. Maybe start from fewer P cores and up-sell to 28?)
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
GPU options like that would mean too many completed mobo SKUs to stock...

Apple will most likely segment the APUs by overall core counts, the more "powerful" the Mac is supposed to be, the higher the core counts on the SoC...

Updating my speculated APU line-up...!

M1 - 4 P / 4 E / 8 GPU / 16 Neural Engine / 16GB LPDDR5 / two USB4 ports
MacBook Air / 13" MacBook Pro / Mac mini

M1X - 8 P / 4 P / 16 GPU / 24 Neural Engine / 64GB LPDDR5 / four USB4 ports
14" MacBook Pro / 24" iMac / Mac mini

M1Z - 16 P / 4 E / 32 GPU / 32 Neural Engine / 128GB HBMnext / four USB4 ports
16" MacBook Pro / 27" iMac / 30" iMac Pro / Mac Cube

There is no 'Mac Cube" coming.

Also, it is likely getting nothing new in Neural Engine across the line up either.

If Apple cranks up the P and iGPU cores then they'll also need to crank up the system cache to keep all those cores fed. The Neural engine is plenty fast for inference on data and the scope is pretty narrow with respect to application usage.

The large shared "System Cache" and Unified Memory is where Apple is getting a chunk of their performance gap from ( moving the data closer to the computional engine that is using it and fewer copies of data) . It also works better because the overall SoC die is small. As push into much larger die they'll loose that if they don't cover more data to deep the 'cores' feed. Pragmatically that means not going to to get "more" of everything.

The System Cache is also centrally located in the whole set up. The the center of the die only can be so large. Start to get core block groupings too far from the center and some of the "secret sauce" goes away. If going to another block of 4 P cores and/or 4-8 Core GPU block then probably not going to be room around the center for another Neural block even around an incrementally bigger System Cache center. (also need to let the Memory controller(s) more access to the System Cache. So basically has 2-3 more "access" consumers of a fixed resource. The Neural , Image Processing, Secure Enclave ,and the rest of the uniformly standard Apple Silicon stuff probably keep a constant size "seat" at the incrementally bigger table. )


As for USB4 ports ... not need if the iGPU isn't crippled to just 2 DisplayPort streams. Probably means Apple would need a better embedded Thunderbolt controller. It only stays USB4 is Apple propagates the kneecapped controller out to the rest of the line up. ( they may.. that would be cheaper for them. )

System Memory on HBMnext.... likely not.


M1T - 32 P / 6 E / 64 GPU / 64 Neural Engine / 256GB HBMnext / eight USB4 ports
Mac Pro (Threadripper-sized package)
No Threadripper sized package coming either. 8 USB4 ports only if added a MPX card. The base system probably will not go past the 4 ports the MBP maximizes out at.
Apple isn't likely to chase the ThreadRipper, EYPC , and/or Xeon SP packages on core counts and maximum number of memory controllers ( and DIMM count).


Same here with the HBMnext. Regualarly in the triple digit GB probably should have ECC support. ( and something past the internal only DDR5 stuff.) If it just for the tower this should be back in the DIMMs zone.



Apple discrete GPU (Lufika) - 64 GPU / 64 Neural Engine / ?? HBMnext ??

There is not really good indications that Lufika actually is a discrete GPU. Lufika could be pragmatically be an integrated GPU. Perhaps chiplet. Perhaps using a small amount of HBM for "back side", local cache. ( something akin to AMD's new "Inifinify Cache" ) That might drive the package size out to Threadripper size but for different .

The 32 (or up) GPU above for the above coluld very well be the Lufika implementations. To go to that many GPU cores Apple would need to do something to pull more of the System cache 'workload' into a larger GPU only cache for shared local space between the very large number GPU computing function units. Effectively a subsystem cache.

Plus seriously need a better location for Display output ( the 2.5 stream limit of the M1 is low . 2 DisplayPorts and a touchbar screen ) is pretty limited when Intel Xe-LP is at 4 streams and MAD is larger also.


Mac Pro may have DDR5 DIMMs implemented as a secondary RAM array, up to 1TB...?

The application cores on "seconardy" RAM isn't likely to happen at all. Nor is Apple likely to scale up to 1TB . Something like the 600GB range ( or lower ).



All desktops will have two USB-A ports & a HDMI port...?

Errrrr, probably not . The iMac and Mac Pro aren't going to pick up system embedded HDMI. The standard configurations of the Mac Pro will get one defacto with the discrete card. Put attached to the side of the box. Probably isn't going to happen. With 4 TB ports if someone wants HDMI they can just get an adapter if running solely off the iGPU in the Mac Pro. Most Mac Pro folks though are going to have a add in card. The add in card will come with the HDMI. Apple might allow a option to buy a Mac Pro with an iGPU only. ( because user is going to buy their own or use it in a more server setting where don't necesarily need one. ). Howver, the standard configs will likely be like the current ones and come with a MPX card .


Type-A ports will probably stick around the more pressing issues with the desktop SoC will be whether Apple allows/provisions 10GbE or not more uniformily. ( and still go to two on Mac Pro and perhaps bring the iMac Pro up to two also. )
 
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