Going to need Rosetta 2 around for a while

[pshufd]

Yeah it makes complex returns easy because Intuit lobbied to make taxes a chore to pressure people to get their software. Watch the video it's absolutely disgusting what them and H&R Block have done to the American tax system.

If we were like Europe with Return Free Filing, you wouldn't have to do complex returns in the first place, the IRS would be doing it for you. All you'd have to do is check to see if the IRS got it right to see about a bigger refund. No muss, no fuss.

But no, Intuit lobbied the government to make life harder. They lobbied for a problem so they could sell their solution

We have a complex tax code because it serves specific constituencies and it perpetuates elect-ability when your representative does something for your interest group. Part of the power of Congress is to enact tax policy and they've done it in spades for a long time.

The US taxes worldwide income and requires global asset reporting and the US government doesn't have access to a lot of that so you have to self-report it and the tax computations can be quite complex.

I'm pragmatic. I want to just get my taxes done with as little effort as possible and that means TurboTax. I don't deal with shoulda, coulda, woulda as that does nothing for me. I have a free, efficient solution to deal with an unpleasant, annual chore.

 

[Zest28]

Force developers to write ARM apps - pure and simple Without a club, developers will be slow to adopt, some may choose to not even consider it. The aforementioned Turbo tax.

When Steve Jobs did it back during the transition to Intel, that forced all of the developers sitting on the fence to move. They need just as much motivation now. Well, not now since Apple still has intel macs, but shortly after we see a M series Mac Pro

There is no point of forcing it as some software cannot be ported to ARM no matter how much you try to force them, as some of them depend on external libraries. And they are not going to rewrite 3rd party libraries obviously.

Killing 64-bit has also killed off software for the same reason.

 

[leman]

There is no point of forcing it as some software cannot be ported to ARM no matter how much you try to force them, as some of them depend on external libraries. And they are not going to rewrite 3rd party libraries obviously.

Killing 64-bit has also killed off software for the same reason.

I don’t see any problems with unmaintained software dying out. The idea that software is written once and has to work forever is so weird anyway.

 

[pshufd]

I don’t see any problems with unmaintained software dying out. The idea that software is written once and has to work forever is so weird anyway.

I've heard that there's still a lot of critical infrastructure running on Windows XP.

I used to work on a product from the 1980s and Intel was using this on their production lines as late as 2010. I am pretty sure that they eventually ported to something else but there can be a big cost to changing software that has worked well for decades. And, of course, you may never want to be the manager eating the capital cost of such investments.

I understand that the IRS has tried to do a rewrite since the 1990s but hasn't been successful at it.

I'm sure that we have roads, bridges and railways that are 100 years old or even older. Or water systems that old. Nobody wants to eat the massive cost of huge infrastructure improvements.

 

[leman]

I've heard that there's still a lot of critical infrastructure running on Windows XP.

I used to work on a product from the 1980s and Intel was using this on their production lines as late as 2010. I am pretty sure that they eventually ported to something else but there can be a big cost to changing software that has worked well for decades. And, of course, you may never want to be the manager eating the capital cost of such investments.

I understand that the IRS has tried to do a rewrite since the 1990s but hasn't been successful at it.

I'm sure that we have roads, bridges and railways that are 100 years old or even older. Or water systems that old. Nobody wants to eat the massive cost of huge infrastructure improvements.

Surely these roads and bridges are constantly maintained, right? And they are built to strict codes, including a long-term feasibility study. The problem with software is that most of it is of very poor quality, coded in a rush, and not maintained. But software does not exist in vacuum, it is inseparable from hardware configuration, and hardware is not eternal. Ultimately, one needs to recognise and manage software as deteriorable assets, which require ongoing maintenance effort. These are cultural issues most of all. Backwards compatibility is important, but it should not prevent forward progress either.

 

[pshufd]

Surely these roads and bridges are constantly maintained, right? And they are built to strict codes, including a long-term feasibility study. The problem with software is that most of it is of very poor quality, coded in a rush, and not maintained. But software does not exist in vacuum, it is inseparable from hardware configuration, and hardware is not eternal. Ultimately, one needs to recognise and manage software as deteriorable assets, which require ongoing maintenance effort. These are cultural issues most of all. Backwards compatibility is important, but it should not prevent forward progress either.

I think that roads and/or bridges get closed or partially closed when there isn't money in the budget for maintenance. I look at the numerous recent rail failures and I understand that some of the tech that railroads run with are from the 1800s because they are too cheap to upgrade systems.

I know how to manage an IT environment professionally but a lot of companies don't care to spend to do that when the old stuff keeps working.

 

[bobcomer]

I don’t see any problems with unmaintained software dying out. The idea that software is written once and has to work forever is so weird anyway.

You probably never worked in a place that has equipment that doesn't change either -- it's not the least bit weird in the manufacturing sector. It's a VERY bad thing for software dying out when it control one of the processes in your mill. You might be talking millions to "fix" your forced obsolescence. (money we don't have) And you wonder why I don't like Apple so much and wont use it for work, even though I like the Mac personally...

 

[chabig]

Turbotax 2024 is out and it's still Intel only. Ughh!

 

[pshufd]

Turbotax 2024 is out and it's still Intel only. Ughh!

I am so glad I bought an iMac Pro this year. It runs Fidelity Active Trader Pro just fine and I'll run TurboTax on it instead of my Studio this tax season. I am mildly curious if the speed of the M4 Macs is so fast that it compensates for the cost of Rosetta 2 fully. I'd want something like an M4 Studio to kick the tires.

 

[yabeweb]

If software vendors don't produce AS kits and Apple drops Rosetta 2, then I'll have to go back to Windows for a couple of programs.

You can use parallels

 

[crazy dave]

We have a complex tax code because it serves specific constituencies and it perpetuates elect-ability when your representative does something for your interest group. Part of the power of Congress is to enact tax policy and they've done it in spades for a long time.

The US taxes worldwide income and requires global asset reporting and the US government doesn't have access to a lot of that so you have to self-report it and the tax computations can be quite complex.

I'm pragmatic. I want to just get my taxes done with as little effort as possible and that means TurboTax. I don't deal with shoulda, coulda, woulda as that does nothing for me. I have a free, efficient solution to deal with an unpleasant, annual chore.

Other countries have complex tax codes and still manage it. The point is for a huge percentage of people using Turbo Tax and other such programs, it is unnecessary ... or rather it should be for them. The US government does have all the information it needs to calculate the right taxes for most people. It's a small minority of tax payers with complex tax returns that actually need it. You may fall into that category, but most don't ... or rather they wouldn't if the IRS was allowed to calculate their taxes for them. There is a shift happening, but very slowly and yes one of the main problems has been tax companies lobbying to stop the federal and state governments from calculating the tax payers' taxes or even just making the free forms better.

==========

Anyway, back on topic: Rosetta 2 isn't going anywhere. Not only was it developed in-house, the in-house development included substantial backend changes to the kernel to ensure page sizes worked correctly. Further, Apple's entire gaming strategy revolving around native ports with GPTK as an inroad relies on it and as such Apple has continued to develop Rosetta's capabilities (AVX2 emulation). As @leman already said, this doesn't mean that old Intel Apple programs will work (without macOS virtualization) forever due to old frameworks being dropped - though apart from old 32-bit and kernel frameworks for security reasons, Apple doesn't tend to do that and so even then it is likely old 64bit Intel apps will continue to function for quite some time.

 

[pshufd]

You can use parallels

It's just easier to buy a used Intel Mac for these programs.

 

[pshufd]

Other countries have complex tax codes and still manage it. The point is for a huge percentage of people using Turbo Tax and other such programs, it is unnecessary ... or rather it should be for them. The US government does have all the information it needs to calculate the right taxes for most people. It's a small minority of tax payers with complex tax returns that actually need it. You may fall into that category, but most don't ... or rather they wouldn't if the IRS was allowed to calculate their taxes for them. There is a shift happening, but very slowly and yes one of the main problems has been tax companies lobbying to stop the federal and state governments from calculating the tax payers' taxes or even just making the free forms better.

==========

Anyway, back on topic: Rosetta 2 isn't going anywhere. Not only was it developed in-house, the in-house development included substantial backend changes to the kernel to ensure page sizes worked correctly. Further, Apple's entire gaming strategy revolving around native ports with GPTK as an inroad relies on it and as such Apple has continued to develop Rosetta's capabilities (AVX2 emulation). As @leman already said, this doesn't mean that old Intel Apple programs will work (without macOS virtualization) forever due to old frameworks being dropped - though apart from old 32-bit and kernel frameworks for security reasons, Apple doesn't tend to do that and so even then it is likely old 64bit Intel apps will continue to function for quite some time.

Again, I'm pragmatic. I have to file FATCA forms annually. The US tried to get banks globally to report assets for US residents and banks globally didn't want to do it. Many do but many don't. So I have fill out this form and also report them on the tax return. So you can rail about the US tax code. Wake me up when I don't have to file.

TurboTax runs like a dog for some reason on Apple Silicon. I run it on macoS Intel this season. Active Trader Pro is similar and I run it on macOS Intel these days. I put my Windows desktop away after buying the iMac Pro but I can bring it back out if I have to.

 

[crazy dave]

Again, I'm pragmatic. I have to file FATCA forms annually. The US tried to get banks globally to report assets for US residents and banks globally didn't want to do it. Many do but many don't. So I have fill out this form and also report them on the tax return. So you can rail about the US tax code. Wake me up when I don't have to file.

I don't think you've understood my post. I was not suggesting that you in particular have no need for tax software in the current situation or even some idealized future. Nor was I railing about the US tax code.

 

[pshufd]

I don't think you've understood my post. I was not suggesting that you in particular have no need for tax software in the current situation or even some idealized future. Nor was I railing about the US tax code.

You were railing about something.

That doesn't help me at all. What would help is Intuit just doing an Apple Silicon port.

 

[crazy dave]

You were railing about something.

That doesn't help me at all. What would help is Intuit just doing an Apple Silicon port.

I understand that. I was less railing and more trying to explain the earlier post by Spaceboi. However, you clearly feel that's off topic enough that you don't want to discuss it and that's fine given the topic was about Rosetta 2 and its longevity with your particular need being tax software and trading. Though it appears you now don't actually need Rosetta 2 around for a long time but rather your Intel Macs to continue working. That said, Rosetta 2 will be around for the foreseeable future.

 

[pshufd]

I understand that. I was less railing and more trying to explain the earlier post by Spaceboi. However, you clearly feel that's off topic enough that you don't want to discuss it and that's fine given the topic was about Rosetta 2 and its longevity. Though it appears you now don't actually need Rosetta 2 around for a long time but rather your Intel Macs to continue working.

I just bought the iMac Pro a few months ago because a couple of programs that I run on my Mac Studio perform poorly on it. At some point, the iMac Pro will lose macOS security update support so it will no longer be a solution. In the meantime, I wait for software vendors to port, or Apple Silicon or macOS improvements for Rosetta 2. And the backup plan, of course, is to go with Windows.

 

[crazy dave]

I just bought the iMac Pro a few months ago because a couple of programs that I run on my Mac Studio perform poorly on it. At some point, the iMac Pro will lose macOS security update support so it will no longer be a solution. In the meantime, I wait for software vendors to port, or Apple Silicon or macOS improvements for Rosetta 2. And the backup plan, of course, is to go with Windows.

Have you tried it on the latest operating system? My understanding is Rosetta 2 was improved with AVX2 support. I don't know how much floating point vector processing your tax software does but I know that was a pain point for many translated programs previously. The other issue is that if the tax software relies heavily on non-compiled/interpreted code (like javascript or web/Electron-type applications), the translation will always be dog slow. No improvements to Rosetta 2 will help with that. That said ... single core performance of the latest processors will!

Also theoretically openCore is another backup plan ... you can in theory keep your Intel Mac up-to-date using it.

 

[pshufd]

Have you tried it on the latest operating system? My understanding is Rosetta 2 was improved with AVX2 support. I don't know how much floating point vector processing your tax software does but I know that was a pain point for many translated programs previously. The other issue is that if the tax software relies heavily on non-compiled/interpreted code (like javascript or web/Electron-type applications), the translation will always be dog slow. No improvements to Rosetta 2 will help with that. That said ... single core performance of the latest processors will!

Also theoretically openCore is another backup plan ... you can in theory keep your Intel Mac up-to-date using it.

Yes. All of my systems are running Sequoia. The Studio is running 15.0.1; the iMac Pro is running 15.1 as is my M1 Pro MacBook Pro.

I do benchmarks on my trading programs for my YouTube channels from time to time. I also test my trading programs on new macOS versions and releases and post them on my YouTube channels as other users want to know if they should update or not.

I really doubt that Active Trader Pro or TurboTax use AVX2 support outside of any code that's compiler-generated. We're not talking about multimedia or heavy math here.

 

[crazy dave]

Yes. All of my systems are running Sequoia. The Studio is running 15.0.1; the iMac Pro is running 15.1 as is my M1 Pro MacBook Pro.

I do benchmarks on my trading programs for my YouTube channels from time to time. I also test my trading programs on new macOS versions and releases and post them on my YouTube channels as other users want to know if they should update or not.

I really doubt that Active Trader Pro or TurboTax use AVX2 support outside of any code that's compiler-generated. We're not talking about multimedia or heavy math here.

Yeah wrt AVX2 I suspect not ... doing a quick search for Turbo Tax/Intuit tech stack, it basically looks like a web app:

What does TurboTax's tech stack look like?

Answer (1 of 2): TurboTax’s tech stack includes Akamai (Intelligent Platform, Prolexic), Algolia, Amazon (Route 53, S3), AngularJS, Apache (Commons, HttpComponents, Web Server), AppDynamics, Apteligent, Bugherd, Bold Commerce, Bootstrap, Cloudflare, Disqus, Flowplayer, Google (Cloud Messaging, Ma...

www.quora.com

That means limited pre-compiled code, so most of the code has to be translated on the fly as you are using it. As such, it will always be extremely slow relative to native code. Faster processors might make it bearable, but ...

There are multiple versions of TurboTax I know, but as far as I can tell, given your experience and what I'm reading, it's at least heavily interpreted code rather than compiled.

 

[pshufd]

Yeah wrt AVX2 I suspect not ... doing a quick search for Turbo Tax/Intuit tech stack, it basically looks like a web app:

What does TurboTax's tech stack look like?

Answer (1 of 2): TurboTax’s tech stack includes Akamai (Intelligent Platform, Prolexic), Algolia, Amazon (Route 53, S3), AngularJS, Apache (Commons, HttpComponents, Web Server), AppDynamics, Apteligent, Bugherd, Bold Commerce, Bootstrap, Cloudflare, Disqus, Flowplayer, Google (Cloud Messaging, Ma...

www.quora.com

That means limited pre-compiled code, so most of the code has to be translated on the fly as you are using it. As such, it will always be extremely slow relative to native code. Faster processors might make it bearable, but ...

There are multiple versions of TurboTax I know, but as far as I can tell, given your experience and what I'm reading, it's at least heavily interpreted code rather than compiled.

I don't use the web version because it's even slower, particularly if you working on your taxes in April. It is also really slow entering things one at a time. TurboTax imports investment information directly from my brokers saving a massive amount of time compared to manual entry.

There are multiple versions of TurboTax but you need TurboTax Premier to get the auto-import of stock, dividend, interest and other investment income. They have one higher tier for property and small business but I don't need those at this time. Fidelity provides TurboTax Premier as a perk for HNW clients. I have tried other programs in the past but my experience is that TurboTax finds stuff that other programs don't.

This is what ATP performance looks like. The ATP Beta is native and the numbers for it are what you'd expect given the power of the respective hardware. macOS on the iMac Pro is decent compared to Apple Silicon and I can keep my desktop all Mac. The i7-10700 Windows system is outclassed by the Apple Silicon systems but it's responsiveness is great.

You can see that I've tested using virtual machines to see if those make a difference and running Windows 10 on Intel is very close to running natively through WINE using VMWare.

The ATP Beta is something to look forward to but it's missing a lot of functionality and crashes; but it's really fast. My expectation is that it will be at least a year before it's released given what I know of how long it takes Fidelity to do software projects.

If Rosetta 2 goes away, then a virtual machine is a possible solution as the performance is close to Rosetta 2, at least for VMWare. The downside is the additional RAM overhead of running two operating systems, and the CPU overhead, and having to run Windows Update from time to time. I run the MacBook Pro in Low Power Mode as my two main programs don't get through the day on battery as it is.

The date of the testing was October 26 so relatively recent.

 

[yabeweb]

It's just easier to buy a used Intel Mac for these programs.

I guess, for me it’s a lot easier to just fire an app for an occasional use, but I see your point.