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motherofpearl

macrumors newbie
Original poster
May 29, 2021
3
1
If you think differently I have nice beach front property in antarctica to sell you. it's beautiful this time of year! Only 6ft of ice there now.

It was a gulp of agreement!

That train of thought is childish at best.

Concerns about privacy is real when you start looking at the real documents. Good thing there's a YouTube like Louis who is willing to talk about these kind of things in addition to right of repair. Just because you have no concerns doesn't mean everybody else have to agree with you.
I sort of have to agree with him. Privacy is a concern, but the whole google is evil and apple are saints is a complete farce. Nether are better or worse than the other. And, if you want to keep your privacy, Stay off digital devices. Plain and simple. Nothing childish about it.

I think most people realise that using a digital device means that your digital data will be tracked and your privacy impinged. And as had been said throughout this thread, there have been privacy issues -- or straight up data compromisations/leaks -- across different vendors. I think it's a balancing game: using what you need to use in 2021, but being careful not to give away what you don't want to give away.

I think then it's right for people to perform a critical reflection on how their data is being used. Especially right now, as new privacy standards for ad tracking are being drawn up. Even Google is now working on a replacement to the cookies mechanic, supposedely in response to anger about privacy. (Though these proposals are also controversial...)

There are also third party organisations whose opinions can be counted on to help inform your decisions. For instance, the EFF has praised Apple for their anti-tracking technologies within Safari, while are very critical of Google's designs for FLoC. The Mozilla Foundation's 'Privacy Not Included' resource is pretty good too and notes both Apple and Google's shortcomings. As you'd probably expect, Apple normally comes out ahead in these kind of comparisons -- especially since they've started backing up their marketing materials with actual OS features (e.g. ATT). But Mozilla doesn't flatout tell you not to use Google products, just to be mindful of how it operates.

An interesting and informative video. As much as I love Android as a platform, we need to rethink how we see Google.

But then there's this Arizona story... which is pretty worrying. I've heard some takes on it that do downplay its 'oh no' factor a bit, but making it hard for users to turn off privacy guidelines is always a bad look. If we were to be more generous -- and describe this as internally realising that your privacy settings are difficult to comprehend and leading to incorrect user assumptions -- it's still bad that nothing was done by Google to fix this issue as a priority. Or if they needed location access for core OS features, then that should have been communicated clearly. Google really doesn't make it easy for it to feel like people can trust them.

I personally am not too concerned about Google themselves. As a publicly traded company (Alphabet), Google has laws they have to abide to, and brand name, so they wouldn't do anything too "evil." However, I do have concerns about Google's ignorant attitude towards security and the Play Store. Some random developer from Russia/China who put malware in the Play Store wouldn't care less. Google don't seem to care either on what can be submitted to the Play Store. I have seen simple utilities, or even a podcasting app, requiring access to calls, contacts, and camera. Those are a telltale of something nefarious. Worse, many apps, even legitimate ones, are so poorly coded that they do require those questionable permissions.

I think this is the most persuasive reasoning I've heard for trusting Google. That they're still having to operate within the bounds of data protection law -- and that they'd never do anything to wild, as otherwise people would just stop using their stuff. Ideally, we'd want more stringent civic protections and more forceful regulatory bodies. Of everywhere, the EU from my understanding seems to be fighting for this the most.

I've ended up ditching the Pixel, at least for now. I've learnt a lot about privacy over the last week. I think I'd genuinely just feel happier using an Apple device, although I understand that advertising technologies will still most likely find some way to track me. I think I prefer Apple's bias towards on device data processing, whereas Android phones prefer phoning home and sending things up to your Google Account in the datacentre.

But is Apple perfect? No, they're not. Their stance towards Right to Repair is troubling. The lack of a headphone jack STILL IS INFURIATING (I don't want AirPods for many reasons, including environmental). There are some concerns over data privacy here too. But Apple also has less skin in the advertising game, so are more likely to do the things I'd like my device to do.

Don't know that much about Rossman, but in that linked video, when he talks about the lack of choice in mobile OS... he's right there.
 

grandM

macrumors 68000
Oct 14, 2013
1,520
302
Google = advertisements. Yes they joined forces with Microsoft. How spooky is it if I google something on my Mac I get similar topics on reddit sent to my android phone? The reddit account is tied to a microsoft mail address, not to my gmail. And I live in the EU. Yes I use duckduckgo now. Apple is the only one trying. Ms switched to windows 10 to grab data. It's despicable.
 

Jason2000

macrumors 6502
Jul 19, 2019
373
794
Planet Earth
No, there is not. They just make it sound like it. Apple does not stop either. They just make you believe they did. Also, All the leaks of intimate photos of stars a few years back was an Apple breach. Not a google. Apple has no better security for anything. They have a great marketing team and an amazing Kool aid mixing group.
Where is your proof that Apple is so evil. Also if I remember correctly wasn't the photo leaks the results of phishing attempts on those stars and not Apple's fault ? And your kool aid comment is childish and not necessary. We could say the same about you and your love of Google.
 
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Jason2000

macrumors 6502
Jul 19, 2019
373
794
Planet Earth
OK, so here's a thread that I'm sure will cause no controversy . . .

It's come time to upgrade my old iPhone. Everything else I use is Apple, though I've always been a bit device agnostic with my phone. The iPhone's been nice, though I've been unlucky and had some big hardware faults (which couldn't be fixed in store) and--coming from an OG Pixel--this iPhone camera was always a bit dissapointing (I'm using an iPhone 8). This was also my first phone without a headphone jack and it's one of the most annoying things (though ofc now par for the course).

I recently scored an incredible deal on a Pixel 5. I'll be paying substancially less for the Pixel 5 than an iPhone 12. While this is an Apple forum, I reckon that to be into technology is to be into UI, UX + hardware design. While Google stuff may doesn't have the same polish as Apple, I think there's a lot of talented people working at Google with a lot of new ideas. Material You looks ace, while Google's physical hardware designs have their own Californian Modern-leaning aesthetic that I really dig.

The P5 is super cool -- the camera is ace, the sizing is just right. The symmetrical bezels and the hole punch display make the design feel like magic (I think you've got to hold one to get it, it's much more impressive IRL than in photos).

BUT.... Google... I've been reading a lot about privacy and Google as I've been deciding whether to keep this phone. I've had Google phones before and not really thought about it. But now I can't tell what Google's ultimate aim is -- is the advertising & data collection in service of the product, or the product in service of the advertising & data collection? There's a certain creepiness. But I also don't want to become descended into a state of semi-paranoia -- I'm pretty sure Google won't use my location data to kidnap me, for instance.

I know the iPhone now has ATT which is cool -- though I do wonder about its effectiveness. I don't use too many apps on my phone (none of those weird ad-based games), though I do use some Facebook properties (but I'd guess their tracking transcends only the tech that can be blocked by iOS 14.5's ATT)...

Also, I think some things have changed with Google -- GDPR seems to have altered a lot of the data capture systems. It looks like most things can be turned off -- including ad personalisation? Also, while Pixel is made by Google, I hear that a Google phone may be better for privacy that some other Android OEMs.

So, people who use Pixels -- how do you approach privacy? Does Google's business model creep you out that you're going to switch to an iPhone? Or do you think it's a wee bit overblown and that government regulation keeps this under control?

In a one-to-one comparison with the iPhone I can afford (the 11), I really think the Pixel comes up tops for me -- I just wish Google had the same stance as Apple on personal privacy.
Your data is Google's lifeline. They are going to protect it with everything they can. If they lose the trust of the public at large they will be in great danger. I would be more concerned with 3rd party apps which can be loose cannons whether you use iOS or Android. If you enjoy the Pixel I would say stick with it and just pay attention best you can.
 

Steve Adams

Suspended
Dec 16, 2020
954
684
Where is your proof that Apple is so evil. Also if I remember correctly wasn't the photo leaks the results of phishing attempts on those stars and not Apple's fault ? And your kool aid comment is childish and not necessary. We could say the same about you and your love of Google.
I don't have a love of google. Or apple or any corporation. That's my point. blindly following one of these tech corporations is silly. Being an apple loyalist is laughable. They are all the same. Choosing apple because you like it is one thing. Defending them tooth and nail is an entirely different ball of wax. Alot of people here think apple is Jesus Christ re-incarnated and they do NO WRONG. They are just a massive corporation who wants to make the most money possible off its users. Do you think they care about you? ha ha ha. They want your money. Thats it. They will tell the followers what they want to hear to get the money. No. the picture thing was an icloud breach. Security is no better on apple than it is on google. They will just tell you it is.
 

zakarhino

Contributor
Sep 13, 2014
2,611
6,963

Don't listen to him. Comments such as "well all companies are bad and suck at privacy" or "buy a nokia if you're that concerned" are low effort troll posts. Nobody in the real world wants to use a dumb phone or not use smart technology. Similarly, nobody in the real world wants excessive tracking from Google, that is if they fully understood the dangers of cancerous advertising idealogy and the technology that enables it (sadly most people do not).

It's a no-brainer that your data is safer with Apple than it is Google as the latter has an extensive track record of doing their best to invent new ways to track you and sell you products. Sure, Apple is not perfect and they have plenty of issues on their own. In fact I think it's possible to configure an Android device to be more even more secure and even more private than an iOS device, the only problem is it requires some configuration and potential compromise (such as installing microG to replace Google's own services). I think out of the box Android scores a 2/10 in terms of privacy. iOS out of the box gives you about a 4/10. Well configured custom software on a privacy oriented Android is probably a 6/10.

Personally I would stick with iOS if you don't want to do much configuring. If you want to use Android, consider researching degoogling software such as microG and custom ROMs.
 
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zakarhino

Contributor
Sep 13, 2014
2,611
6,963
I don't have a love of google. Or apple or any corporation. That's my point. blindly following one of these tech corporations is silly. Being an apple loyalist is laughable. They are all the same. Choosing apple because you like it is one thing. Defending them tooth and nail is an entirely different ball of wax. Alot of people here think apple is Jesus Christ re-incarnated and they do NO WRONG. They are just a massive corporation who wants to make the most money possible off its users. Do you think they care about you? ha ha ha. They want your money. Thats it. They will tell the followers what they want to hear to get the money. No. the picture thing was an icloud breach. Security is no better on apple than it is on google. They will just tell you it is.

You're right, loyalty to brands is dumb and thinking Apple cares about anything other than making money is naive. I'm always pointing out Apple's anti-consumer and anti-privacy decisions on this forum only to be met with anger from Apple loyalists.

With that being said the conclusion can't be for us to throw away all smart tech and go back to the stone ages. It's too difficult to navigate modern life without a smartphone so although there's no perfect solution we have to pick the best of two evils. I pick Apple because it's more than likely better than Google when it comes to respecting my privacy and not using it to sell me products.

P.S, the iCloud "hacks" were from phishing and not from hacks. Since that incident there have been various two factor authentication systems developed for iCloud. iCloud was picked because a large number of celebrities had iPhones and iCloud's photo library was implemented before a similar product (Google Photos) was released for Android devices.
 

zakarhino

Contributor
Sep 13, 2014
2,611
6,963
or the product in service of the advertising & data collection? There's a certain creepiness. But I also don't want to become descended into a state of semi-paranoia

Almost all of Google's revenue comes from their advertising business. Their ability to make money is dependent on how effective their ads are. Their ads are effective because invasive tracking of your life lets them build a creepy profile on you. They're selling you the phone because it guarantees you'll use Google's services which means they can almost guarantee they'll have a great profile on you.

You're not paranoid if you think that people or companies shouldn't have extreme access into all aspects of your life. What you like to eat, where you go, who you talk to, what your fears are, what makes you happy, what makes you sad, the things you buy, your health, everything. They want as much information on you as they can possibly get. The whole point of advertising is to influence your decision making, sometimes in ways that are undetectable to you. The better they can profile you, the better they can influence you.

I've been incredibly worried about privacy the last several months, and I've deleted all of my Google apps and profiles. But, meh. Sometimes I think worrying about privacy to such an extent is ridiculous. I'm just a small speck in the universe--who honestly cares what I am up to unless I have an incredibly high-profile job? And we all die in the end (existentialism, whew). We won't be worrying about our privacy when we're dead.

Google and Facebook want you to think it's ridiculous that you'll get kidnapped or "personally targeted" by a Google employee using your data (even though there have been stories of Google employees accessing people's personal data for perverted purposes) because it is kind of ridiculous. It's a straw man. Those highly unlikely scenarios distract from the very real dangers of big advertising's powerful influence over people's minds. Cambridge Analytica is a prime example of this. It's completely plausible to believe that Trump wouldn't have won the election without Cambridge's targeted advertising campaign. It's highly unlikely that someone will personally target you personally, but it's highly likely you will be targeted as one part of a larger group that contains identified aspects of your personality (that perhaps even you are unaware of) in order to harm you or others.

Also, Google states that they anonymize all data, which I'm bound to believe. Yes, Google utilizes your information for ad purposes, but if any personal data was compromised, Google would be in incredible trouble. In order for their company to be successful and to exist, Google must keep their client's information absolutely private and untouchable. Google is invested in making sure your information does not leak for their own survival.

They don't anonymize the data. There are various articles and papers debunking the "anonymizing" marketing trick. The information that they "anonymize" can trivially be deanonymized. I have never seen a company here in the Bay Area with "anonymized" data that can't be deanonymized for engineering purposes. If I have a lock on my door that can easily be opened with a spoon I would argue I don't really have a lock on my door, just a prop piece of metal.

I agree that Google will do their best to stop outsiders from hacking into their systems, moreso than many other companies due to Google's crazy security budget, but that doesn't stop me from being concerned about what Google does with the data.
 

Steve Adams

Suspended
Dec 16, 2020
954
684
You're right, loyalty to brands is dumb and thinking Apple cares about anything other than making money is naive. I'm always pointing out Apple's anti-consumer and anti-privacy decisions on this forum only to be met with anger from Apple loyalists.

With that being said the conclusion can't be for us to throw away all smart tech and go back to the stone ages. It's too difficult to navigate modern life without a smartphone so although there's no perfect solution we have to pick the best of two evils. I pick Apple because it's more than likely better than Google when it comes to respecting my privacy and not using it to sell me products.

P.S, the iCloud "hacks" were from phishing and not from hacks. Since that incident there have been various two factor authentication systems developed for iCloud. iCloud was picked because a large number of celebrities had iPhones and iCloud's photo library was implemented before a similar product (Google Photos) was released for Android devices.
Yes, it was fixed, but it still happened. and will again. Just as android is just as safe as iOS now. back in the day...NOPE. Android was the wild west. Now, it's no different unless you start downloading all kinds of 3rd party apps, which can happen on iOS as well. Neither is better or worse than the other. Simple.
 

One2Grift

Cancelled
Jun 1, 2021
609
547
Don't worry about "privacy" you have none with either platform. You know what you are getting with google, apple is shady and backhanded at their "privacy" You don't know what they are doing because they cover it up with marketing and locked down systems. So, use the device you want to use and don't worry. Both are equal in the security and privacy front.
I don’t think differently, I know differently. Your post is outright misinformation.
First, look at the two companies quarterly statements. Notice Google Ad money revenue (MASSIVE), now notice Apple (virtually none). Google has a gigantic incentive to gain information on you (i.e. no privacy) to sell you Google AND non Google products(big money here) using the most effective sales machine ever, knowing your privacy (even eventually knowing what you may do, like, want before you do it. That’s the benefit no privacy enables through time data and intricate algorithms).
Second, Apple Safari already shut off third party cookies (so did Firefox), while Google Chrome is still not quite there yet. Huh, an obvious privacy issue item that one main use is ads revenue. Gee, why would Google drag their feet on universally accepted privacy issue that earns them big money? Huh, couldn’t guess that one.
Third, Apple has made privacy front and center (even making it a pop up). Google just this week? Internal emails discussing putting privacy,what privacy controls they do have, deeper into the menus and harder for users to find. Huh, why would Google and their (factually so) less privacy settings be purposefully made harder to find? Wait! Could it be that ad money in the billions again? No….
Fourth, and Facebook went into a tizzy over it, Apple made the privacy pop up to block 3rd party app tracking. Last comment from Google on Android doing this huge engineering feat? 2023. Huh, they don’t want to turn on privacy? Could it be that billions in ads thing again? No…
Fifth, what they do with the first party data collected is in their terms service. You seem so knowledgeable on it so I don’t have to tell you the difference (pssst, read 1-5 for a preview of what you’ll find if you choose to become knowledgeable on it).

you see these statements made all the time on the internet regarding Apple v Google privacy “yea there’s no difference. Apple is shady”. It’s a false statement from a hater, an Astro, or someone just parroting what they heard someone else say. But just look at 1-5 facts above (especially #1 aka follow the money). Then confidently and with unassailable facts know that it’s either misinformation or disinformation. Fact: Apple privacy security is way up here, Google (and every big ad money maker) down there.
 
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Steve Adams

Suspended
Dec 16, 2020
954
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Privacy and ad revenue are two entirely different things my friend. Just have to add something here...this is an edit. The privacy pop up is to stop other platforms from monetizing on the app store. If you think it's for anything else. Again, I have some beachfront property in antarctica to sell you.
 
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deanforwin

macrumors newbie
May 31, 2021
25
20
I've used Pixel phones before. Here's the thing. They seem exciting at first but don't age well. They start lagging, basic photo and video editing turns into a hassle since they don't have dedicated apps. Photos app, for instance, would constantly crash on me while editing.Software, like Notes, Cal, Messages do not feel as sophisticated as on iOS. I don't think Android Messages are end to end encrypted either.

Pixel cams takes very sharp, nice looking photos but very unnatural, over-sharpened looking at times. I prefer iPhone cameras with more natural skin tones. There's no comparison when it came to 4k video and sound quality.

I remember having lots of tracking and ads by Google.

The phone felt plasticky, cheap, it didn't feel as premium as my XS. I had an issue with my phone and the customer service didn't seem as effortless as at the Apple Store. I had to call around, calls went to Asian countries and no one was able to help me. The third party they recommended for fixing tried to overcharge me.

The only thing I miss about that phone is Google Assistant. Otherwise, iOS/Apple wins when it comes to longevity, features, reliability, customer service, quality of apps, continuity, security.
 
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One2Grift

Cancelled
Jun 1, 2021
609
547
Thus like I said, it’s consumer vs the tech giants. Google is mentioned because it’s the title of the thread. if your “solution” is for people to stop using smartphones or the internet, that’s not even an argument. It’s childish at best.

due to society’s online nature, a person who doesn’t have a smartphone pays an unwritten tax/penalty for it. Whether that’s a good thing is debatable (I think it is at least concerning we are becoming smartphone required). Be that as it may — and I know this thread has been stale for a few days — the topic of privacy security is providing good benefits.
1. Making people aware of their privacy security. Some don’t care about it. That’s their choice (it’s default with Google but Apple does allow you to disable some security features)
2. people are making a bit more informed decisions between Google(much looser privacy security) and Apple(far greater privacy security).
3. Identifying users on MacRumors who insist! There’s no difference in privacy security between the two companies. Since factually, demonstrably and quantifiably there is a big difference, take note of the users here who insist there is no difference(disregarding the facts). You now know the list of users you shouldn’t listen to for Apple advice (they’re only pushing an agenda)
 
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RPi-AS

macrumors newbie
May 8, 2021
11
14
I think that OP's best bet would be to install something like LineageOS and without Gapps.

There is also the possibility to use a Pinephone, for instance, with a Linux distribution, such postmarketOS or Ubuntu Touch.
 

Ethrem

macrumors 6502
May 10, 2009
368
340
This is the kind of article that has me sketchy about Google. You don't hear stories like this about Apple, Microsoft, et al.


That is terrifying. Even more terrifying is that Google supplies the information to law enforcement when they have it on iPhones too, presumably from iPhones that install and use Google apps.

 
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5105973

Cancelled
Sep 11, 2014
12,132
19,733
That is terrifying. Even more terrifying is that Google supplies the information to law enforcement when they have it on iPhones too, presumably from iPhones that install and use Google apps.

I’m not precisely sure how it’s being accomplished via how the various accounts talk to each other, but I do know I’m still getting targeted ads that even know where I am browsing from, despite my efforts to lock down my settings on every damn account I own. I think so much is revealed just because I don’t use a vpn and I’m being tracked via IP address. It’s frustrating and it’s creepy but I am resigned to this for marketing purposes.

It’s law enforcement that frightens me. No disrespect intended to police, as there are police among my friends and family, but I get the impression from all of these articles that they operate under increasingly “lazy” systems. They’re increasingly not tracking down clues on foot like on tv, but more and more they’re pulling as much data as all the various systems can collect about us and using that, be it CCTV footage or cell phone data. And I don’t blame them if it’s more effective and efficient, but the problem of false positives is absolutely chilling. My parents live in a crime ridden neighborhood and refuse to move for reasons of familiarity and stubbornness. My phone is always going to be putting me in proximity to crime scenes. Those geofencing warrants are scary. The argument for them is we should be thrilled they help police get violent offenders off the streets. That’s always what’s waved over us when we voice concerns over our civil liberties and rights being violated by ever intrusive surveillance.
 

5105973

Cancelled
Sep 11, 2014
12,132
19,733
Google tagged you with an identifier. That follows you on your digital journeys.

If you want to limit app tracking -- try TrackerControl app (F-Droid site)
Thanks. Actually this happens on my iPhone. I’ll notice it on sites that my Ad Blocker white listed or I temporarily turned it off. Or even didn’t but the ad somehow got through my ad blocker. But I’ll look into this for my Android phones.
 

nickdalzell1

macrumors 68030
Dec 8, 2019
2,787
1,670
Or use NetGuard No-Root Firewall and selectively turn off all internet/mobile data access to Google Play Services and other Google background apps such as Framework, Play Store, etc. Install F-Droid or Aptoide for apps or do as I do and just sideload APKs. That way the apps which depend on the location or other APIs that can run on-device for Google Services can run, such as banking apps and so on, but can't phone home to Google or check for updates or serve targeted ads.

Also, go to the connection settings and under 'private DNS' put 'dns.adguard.com' in there, it will report 'can't connect' or 'connection problem' (depending on OEM or skin) but works anyway. Basically with Netguard + Private DNS (which fails) any ads served by an app will either fail to connect to their server, and won't display, or can't display due to not being able to connect to Google AdChoices. It's like airplane mode and running an app or game offline, only with connectivity preserved.

Whenever I get a new phone (which my S20 FE is going to be my last, I have plenty of backups now) I have an NAS full of APKs from previous phones, their data, my music, etc. 90% of my apps still date to Android 2.3 (I prefer the UI design and simple nature and I'm just used to them) while 10% of the modern ones I found on apkmirror. All music is stored on device or on an SD card. I don't stream. I don't even use Google apps (I use the Samsung ones). So I don't need updates ruining the experience, or any apps I don't ever use or plan to use. Given in 20 years my needs will likely be the same so will the apps I use. As far as my smartphone use goes, other than hardware changes, they're roughly the same as they were in 2010.

This plan has meant that no matter the oldest phone I keep active for a backup or home phone is, they all perform as if they were still new. My S Relay from 2012 still remains snappy, as does the S20 FE which won't slow down either since I neither update nor worry about filling the storage up with apps I will never plan to use, such as Instagram or Snapchat or Whatsapp. The most modern apps on it are Walmart for Walmart Pay (Samsung pay is broken lately with my AMEX card, constantly flagging all contactless payments as 'fraud' and holding up lines) and Kroger, as well as the AMEX app.
 
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