Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

dsnort

macrumors 68000
Jan 28, 2006
1,904
68
In persona non grata
Are you reading another thread?

I would ask you the same question.

If we look past Greenpeace how about expecting apple to be the leader in environmentalism in the computer sector.

"Apple desktops, notebooks and displays each score best-in-class in the new EPA [US Environmental Protection Agency] ranking system EPEAT, which uses international standards set by IEEE [formerly the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers]."

Sounds like industry leadership to me.

And that refers to offering recycling of their computers wherever they can sell the

Apple also has a take back program. They even used to advertise the iPod one because you could get a credit towards a new one for bringing back an old one whether it works or not

solvs said it best

I'm not trying say Apple is perfect, or couldn't do better, but I'm also not going to just blindly drink the Kool Aid Greenpeace is handing me.
 

guitarmaster18

macrumors regular
Mar 27, 2007
158
0
Well, as for the toxic chemicals, It is impossible to make any processor or computer with out them. Simply Impossible. But, you can make recycle programs and cut down on the chemicals in the computers cases, which Apple has done.
 

numlock

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2006
1,590
88
I would ask you the same question.

Global warming is a big lie anyway.

Why the hell can't they just leave Apple alone.

that values trees over human life...

Stupid Hippies, get a life GreenPeace


This is just a selection of what Ive read.

Mr. Amiga500 raised some fair questions that everybody (imo) should want answers to

"Apple desktops, notebooks and displays each score best-in-class in the new EPA [US Environmental Protection Agency] ranking system EPEAT, which uses international standards set by IEEE [formerly the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers]."

Sounds like industry leadership to me.

Source?

They even used to advertise the iPod one because you could get a credit towards a new one for bringing back an old one whether it works or not

Regarding the takeback of computers. I said wherever they sell computers. If you can sell computers somewhere you can setup a takeback program. I havent noticed an apple takeback program here where I live and at the same time Ive seen a few of their commercials

Why is your ipod sentence in past tense?

I'm not trying say Apple is perfect, or couldn't do better, but I'm also not going to just blindly drink the Kool Aid Greenpeace is handing me.

Then do as I suggested and look past freakin Greanpeace and have your own high expectations for apple. I must have misunderstood your defensive stand and others here if you werent saying that apple can do no wrong.
 

fuzzwud

macrumors regular
Jul 30, 2004
181
0
Houston
Patrick Moore, co-founder of Greenpeace, said something really interesting about nuclear energy and Greenpeace recently

"Over time he grew frustrated with what he described as Greenpeace's tendency to just point out problems and not suggest solutions."

I don't think most of us disagree with wanting to make changes to be more environmentally friendly, but perhaps Moore has a point. It's better to point out a problem and helping find a solution than solely pointing out problems without recommending ways to be more environmentally friendly. Perhaps that's why many people don't like Greenpeace. That's why Moore left Greenpeace.
 

solvs

macrumors 603
Jun 25, 2002
5,684
1
LaLaLand, CA
Why is your ipod sentence in past tense?
Because they don't advertise it as much as they did when they first started it. They still do it though. The recycle thing too. We just did it at work last week.

They could certainly advertise it more, I agree there, but the program's still there to recycle stuff.

I must have misunderstood your defensive stand and others here if you werent saying that apple can do no wrong.
No one was saying that. Just that Greenpeace sucks. Sure, some of us would rather group them in with all environmentalists, but as I pointed out, that's why the rest of us don't like them. They make the good ones look bad my association.

Apple could always be greener, but it would be nice if they didn't ignore the strides they've already made.
 

Porco

macrumors 68040
Mar 28, 2005
3,352
7,130
I'd like Apple to do more to be environmentally friendly, regardless of what Greenpeace say.

That said, I do have some sympathy for Apple's response, that they don't agree with GP's criteria for ranking the companies they looked at, and facts such as that Macs tend to have longer life-spans than many other computers are things that actually matter, because if you use your Mac twice as long then that's a machine that isn't dumped or recycled (which still requires transport, energy to recycle and some non-reusable parts being chucked out etc).

I'd love to know the percentages of Macs that people hold onto or re-use compared to standard beige box PCs. That is the kind of thing that affects the environment in real terms. Not whether they have announced something or not.
 

gothiquegirrl

macrumors regular
Dec 6, 2006
239
4
Planet Earth
I don't get why people would throw away computers :\ I still have the original 286, the first computer I ever used(in the exact location I'm sitting in typing 15 years later).

Because after you've taken all the "useable" parts to help build a newer computer... No one wants to take leftover "crap" off your hands but the trash guy.

I've NEVER thrown away a WHOLE computer... and I've always Tried to give away as many parts as I could to people who want/need them.... but I always have stuff no one wants...

Mind you I'm typing this on a 8 or so year old imac.

P.S. I'll be more than happy to receive anyone's working G3 Imac keyboards... In any color! Especially PINK or PURPLE. I can easily find uses for them outside of throwing them out as people do. They aren't my favorite keyboard.. but i'll certainly use one till it breaks before i get another. :)
 

numlock

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2006
1,590
88
That's the first thing you've said that I agree with, you misunderstood.

post one quote by you in this thread where you said apple could do better. Preferably with more substance than purely "apple can do better"

They could certainly advertise it more, I agree there, but the program's still there to recycle stuff.

Im sure you would agree that without advertising alot of consumers wont know of and use this service

No one was saying that. Just that Greenpeace sucks. Sure, some of us would rather group them in with all environmentalists, but as I pointed out, that's why the rest of us don't like them. They make the good ones look bad my association.

Apple could always be greener, but it would be nice if they didn't ignore the strides they've already made

Tell me. if Greenpeace and other fanatics (as many here would label them) didnt bring this issue up would there even be a discussion here ever about the environmental impact left by the computer industry? Would it ever enter your mind to expect apple to do better or differently? Please take a few seconds to think about that

And come on apple isnt a cornershop store there is absolutely no reason they cant have the best takeback program, be the first with iniatives like plant a tree and be the first to sign on to stop using BFRs and PVC. Theres no reason to pat a multi billion dollar company on the back for simply doing "a job" especially if they show little interest in improving further

I don't think most of us disagree with wanting to make changes to be more environmentally friendly, but perhaps Moore has a point. It's better to point out a problem and helping find a solution than solely pointing out problems without recommending ways to be more environmentally friendly. Perhaps that's why many people don't like Greenpeace. That's why Moore left Greenpeace.

Umm Grennpeace has criticized apple for their recycling program and use of chemicals/toxins in their product line. Without being privy to Greanpeace information im guessing the solutions in Greenpeaces mind would be to improve the recycling program drastically and find a way to make products without these chemcials/toxins. Some of biggest companies in the computer/electronic industry have signed on phase out BFRs and PVC why cant apple? is this what think different means?
 

-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
"Apple desktops, notebooks and displays each score best-in-class in the new EPA [US Environmental Protection Agency] ranking system EPEAT, which uses international standards set by IEEE [formerly the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers]."

Sounds like industry leadership to me.


It is leading by doing, instead of leading by promising.


I used to like Greenpeace (IIRC, I was even a donor), but their actions over the years have become increasingly "grandstanding" for self promotion than problem solving.

What Greenpeace really needs to do is to revisit their 'report card' list from X years ago and see if those companies who they gave great marks to have actually been successful in their follow-through to keep the promises they made ... or not.



-hh
 

solvs

macrumors 603
Jun 25, 2002
5,684
1
LaLaLand, CA
Im sure you would agree that without advertising alot of consumers wont know of and use this service
They do. Just not as much. I agree that they should do more, as they did for awhile. No one is saying the shouldn't.

Tell me. if Greenpeace and other fanatics (as many here would label them) didnt bring this issue up would there even be a discussion here ever about the environmental impact left by the computer industry?
Actually, the ones who aren't fanatics get more done. The ones who are, and who do the things several of us have pointed out, seem to be doing the opposite. Turning people like dsnort away from environmentalism. As I said, they make the rest of us (myself included) look bad by association. We don't want that.

They complained Apple didn't have a recycling program and used dangerous chemicals. Apple does have a recycling program, has for awhile now, and they have been working to get rid of the dangerous chemicals. But mostly because of new laws in CA and Europe. GP has nothing to do with it, and all they're doing is complaining because Apple hasn't given them the details of the programs. Other companies get better scores because they give details and pledge to plant trees, even if actuality, they're worse polluters. That's not helping anyone.

And come on apple isnt a cornershop store there is absolutely no reason they cant have the best takeback program, be the first with iniatives like plant a tree and be the first to sign on to stop using BFRs and PVC.
They do have a take back program, and are working to eliminate dangerous chemicals. I'm curious how you qualify best though. One of our problems with GP is how they qualify it. Even if Apple is better, as in they pollute less, GP doesn't seem to want to take that into consideration.

And that plant a tree thing is just marketing. Everybody should be planting trees, but if you've ever seen a Dell box, they use a lot more paper than Apple. Not to mention they ship more boxes. So they better be planting a lot of trees to even make themselves even with Apple. Would be nice for Apple to do something similar, but it does come off as disingenuous no?

Umm Grennpeace has criticized apple for their recycling program and use of chemicals/toxins in their product line. Without being privy to Greanpeace information im guessing the solutions in Greenpeaces mind would be to improve the recycling program drastically and find a way to make products without these chemcials/toxins. Some of biggest companies in the computer/electronic industry have signed on phase out BFRs and PVC why cant apple?
They are doing those things. And we've told you what GP's policy is. Apple doesn't give a lot of details on what they do. Other companies make promises, even when Apple delivers they get marked off. That's not how you do it.

Of course Apple can be greener. No one is saying they shouldn't be. Again, this is just a complaint about GP's tactics. Which even environmentalists don't like. What does that tell you?
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,566
I wish Apple was a little more enviormentaly friendly. You guys havn't seen pictures of where this stuff ends up. Plus, thy're products contain some serious toxins.

http://www.greenpeace.org/apple/about.html

Before believing anything that Greenpeace posts, you should realise that Apple started getting negative marks from Greenpeace right after they were approached for a major donation to Greenpeace and turned that request down. And if you have a look how other organisations rate Apple (usually absolutely at the top of the range), then maybe these two things are related.
 

solvs

macrumors 603
Jun 25, 2002
5,684
1
LaLaLand, CA
Before believing anything that Greenpeace posts, you should realise that Apple started getting negative marks from Greenpeace right after they were approached for a major donation to Greenpeace and turned that request down. And if you have a look how other organisations rate Apple (usually absolutely at the top of the range), then maybe these two things are related.

Forgot about that one. You're not the first person we've heard this from. Sounds more like how the mafia extorts people with "protection" money.

And when Al Gore doesn't like your environmental organization, you know you're doing something wrong. :p
 

numlock

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2006
1,590
88
They complained Apple didn't have a recycling program and used dangerous chemicals. Apple does have a recycling program, has for awhile now, and they have been working to get rid of the dangerous chemicals. But mostly because of new laws in CA and Europe. GP has nothing to do with it, and all they're doing is complaining because Apple hasn't given them the details of the programs. Other companies get better scores because they give details and pledge to plant trees, even if actuality, they're worse polluters. That's not helping anyone.

The keyword in the a recycling program is to offer it EVERYWHERE. Thats what is common sense and that is what Greenpeace is asking. Theres no apple reycling program where I live how far away is your program?

You already agreed that having a program that isnt advertised wont get alot of participants well its the same thing if it isnt widespread

Why cant apple disclose this information? You think its in the publics interest not to have a clue what apples goals are in this matter?

Other companies get a better score because they open a dialog regarding the issue. Why can samsung, sony and dell for instance do it and not apple?


They do have a take back program, and are working to eliminate dangerous chemicals. I'm curious how you qualify best though. One of our problems with GP is how they qualify it. Even if Apple is better, as in they pollute less, GP doesn't seem to want to take that into consideration.

And that plant a tree thing is just marketing. Everybody should be planting trees, but if you've ever seen a Dell box, they use a lot more paper than Apple. Not to mention they ship more boxes. So they better be planting a lot of trees to even make themselves even with Apple. Would be nice for Apple to do something similar, but it does come off as disingenuous no?

Not everwhere (keypoint). How hard is apple working? When do they expect to be free of these chemicals?

Then its just marketing that can have a positive impact like RED. Everything a billion dollar company does that comes across as being good can be looked at as being disingenuous. And i dont get your philospophy regarding quantity. That would mean that apple should never have to do anything because apple is always playing catchup to dell (if going by the more units=more pollution)

They are doing those things. And we've told you what GP's policy is. Apple doesn't give a lot of details on what they do. Other companies make promises, even when Apple delivers they get marked off. That's not how you do it.

Of course Apple can be greener. No one is saying they shouldn't be. Again, this is just a complaint about GP's tactics. Which even environmentalists don't like. What does that tell you?

So how the hell do we know what apple is doing. Thats not how to do it. I can hardly believe what im reading. You are advocating a companys right not to disclose any info on when they expect your computer (the one thats a few inches-feet from you) to be free of toxins.

You claim to want apple to be greener but have you sent them a letter, spoken to an apple about it? If you say they can be greener, claim you want them to be greener than expect them to be greener.

You are not going to find any group that claims to be fighting for A cause that everybody in that movement approves of.

Before believing anything that Greenpeace posts, you should realise that Apple started getting negative marks from Greenpeace right after they were approached for a major donation to Greenpeace and turned that request down. And if you have a look how other organisations rate Apple (usually absolutely at the top of the range), then maybe these two things are related.

So apple is the only company brave enough to stand up and tell Greenpeace to piss off while sony, samsung, dell, lg and hp all write checks?

Where are all these other groups. I did a quick google and found a cnet story where three seperate groups were criticizing apple and none of them was Greenpeace
 

SC68Cal

macrumors 68000
Feb 23, 2006
1,642
0
What is this? Fights about old news?

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/A663D76C-DCED-442A-BD2E-6A557E98CA39.html

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/mar2007/tc20070329_721408.htm

Just some of the links I've read, I might have missed a few though.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/10/tech/main535959.shtml
n its third annual report card, the Computer TakeBack Campaign assigned poor or failing grades to Hewlett-Packard Co., Micron Technology Inc. and Gateway Inc.

The study, published online Thursday after research by the Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition, accuses U.S. companies of being slow to reduce "e-waste," including lead, polyvinyl chloride and other hazardous materials used in computer manufacturing.

The new report came down especially hard on Texas-based Dell Computer Corp. for failing to send company representatives to shareholder meetings involving toxic materials policy. It also attacked the nation's top-selling computer manufacturer for dealing with a U.S. government contractor, UNICOR, which employs prison inmates to recycle outdated computers.

Wait, isn't that who Greenpeace praised? Hmm?


Your call. Basically, Greenpeace lost all credibility with me when they sank to personal attacks against Daniel Eran. You might not agree with his articles, but when Greenpeace trolls his comments for weeks, something is going on.

EDIT: Found a more recent article where Daniel summarizes the greenpeace thing, and provides links to his previous articles on the subject

People, this is the internet.

Welcome to the new propaganda machine.

Do your research.

Think before you type.

Just a real world suggestion? You all should maybe watch Penn & Teller's ********! on Showtime, as well as read a few books, I reccomend "Steal This Computer Book"
 

solvs

macrumors 603
Jun 25, 2002
5,684
1
LaLaLand, CA
The keyword in the a recycling program is to offer it EVERYWHERE. Thats what is common sense and that is what Greenpeace is asking. Theres no apple reycling program where I live how far away is your program?
I have several in my area, and so do you if you live anywhere close to an Apple Store, CompUSA, Apple Authorized Retailer, and about a billion other places that will take old Apples (or any electronics) for free or for a small fee.

Other companies get a better score because they open a dialog regarding the issue. Why can samsung, sony and dell for instance do it and not apple?
Those companies advertise it about as much as Apple does. Do you really see Dell out there advertising their recycle program very much? I found a link for Apple's, can probably find a link for Dell, but none of them are very vocal about it. None of them are easy to find unless you look for it.

But that was my point. It isn't just Apple, it's all of them. GP picks on Apple, but gives other companies a free pass for doing the same, or less but making more promises. When I say Apple doesn't disclose, I meant they don't give out details to organizations like GP. Not that they keep the whole program secret from their customers. I'm not saying Apple can't do more, of course they can, they all can. But GP picks on them, and when you look at what their criteria is, you see why we can't trust it. You are expecting too much of Apple. Maybe we all should, but why think they should be better than the rest of them. They aren't.

Doesn't make GP right to extort them and ignore the problems of other companies just because people expect more from Apple because it's Apple.

Not everwhere (keypoint). How hard is apple working? When do they expect to be free of these chemicals?
Probably the same time as everyone else.

So apple is the only company brave enough to stand up and tell Greenpeace to piss off while sony, samsung, dell, lg and hp all write checks?
Maybe. Who knows. Those other companies aren't any greener. But they say they are, so GP gives them a pass. I don't know why.

Where are all these other groups. I did a quick google and found a cnet story where three seperate groups were criticizing apple and none of them was Greenpeace
And how many criticizing GP's tactics? Not saying Apple is perfect. Just that other companies are just as bad. And while I would like to see Apple greener, this isn't the way to do it. Giving other companies free passes for being just as bad, if not worse, isn't the right way to do this. And pissing off moderates who start equating all environmentalism with orgs like this is definitely not helping.

Again, this isn't about Apple... it's about GP, their criteria, their tactics, and about how they aren't helping their cause, but hurting it.

As I said, Al Gore doesn't like them. Al Gore! What does that tell you?
 

2pac

macrumors member
Mar 25, 2007
40
0
Interesting?

How do they choose which 12 companies they are going to pick on?

Interesting would be seeing their ranking on every major company out there.

Interesting is the right word. INTERESTING
 

Mr. Amiga500

macrumors regular
Jan 19, 2007
112
0
Canada
"Dell has proposed a simple measure - assume a seven year product lifetime, and measure the percentage of the total weight you recycle each year compared to the total weight of what you sold seven years earlier."

I think if computer companies are assuming seven year product lifetimes, they should actually make computers that last seven years! (hey, does that mean we'll see 7-year warranties??)

Computers used to be built to last. Now they're built to last up to 18 months - the standard upgrade cycle. I've had 5 harddrives fail before they were 2 years old. Three of my work notebooks had major failures within 1 year.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.