Haswell-E doesn't have much over Ivy

[AidenShaw]

Great:

• Total performance improvement on average is about 3%.[9]

But are you really saying that if your code could run 40% faster on Haswell-EP, that you're happy for Apple to decide that "on average" the upgrade isn't worth it?

I think that is the definition of "sheeple".

 

[Tutor]

Rather than being sheeple, to the maximum extent possible I'm now a lone wolf.

Great:

But are you really saying that if your code could run 40% faster on Haswell-EP, that you're happy for Apple to decide that "on average" the upgrade isn't worth it?

I think that is the definition of "sheeple".

The reason why I now build my own systems is that I, alone, am the final arbiter about whether any increase in performance of any kind is worth me spending my money. If the code in one of my important applications would run 40% faster on Haswell-EP or any other compute technology, then I would likely build myself a system using that technology. So "yes, I'd be completely happy for Apple to decide that 'on average' the upgrade isn't worth it." In fact, I am happy with whatever product decision that Apple makes, so long as its in the best interests of Apple's shareholders. After being disappointed with various product decisions made by others, I realized that I, alone, cannot affect what they (including Apple) do and it would be pointless for me to allow their decisions to adversely affect my happiness. [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV-zPLfh1wg&index=7&list=PL95BD0D1AF66A5BAC2 ]

 

[pcd109]

Anand posted a review with a number of benchmarks today for Intel's new Haswell-E i7 enthusiast desktop CPUs. Based on what I can see, there's nothing notable in terms of performance improvements in real-world benchmarks although I'd be interested in hearing differing opinions...

The new 5930K should be indicative of a replacement for the nMP 6-core (1650v2) which is comparable to the IB 4930/60 used in their benchmarks.
As you will see, the Haswell 6-core 5930K offers nothing in terms of added performance over the Ivy-Bridge equivalents. Case in point... the new Haswells are right in-between the two Ivy variants...
So I wouldn't hold your breath for Apple to refresh the nMP based solely on Haswell... there's just nothing there but added expense. The only thing I can see driving a refresh of the nMP in the next year would be next-gen GPU tech.

Well, i don't know how you read your info BUT if you look at Cinebench witch uses all cores, the 8 core has 33% more performance then the best of the 6 cores. The price is identical with the former top of the line 6 core, witch means that for the same price you get 33% more performance. So for a small business who can't drop 2k on a Xeon it's a very good buy. That is if you have a workflow witch utilizes all the cores(3d rendering, video editing etc). Otherwise the 5820 it's a fantastic buy. It has the performance of the other 6 core for a lower price.

 

[handsome pete]

Otherwise the 5820 it's a fantastic buy. It has the performance of the other 6 core for a lower price.

With fewer Pcie lanes.

 

[VirtualRain]

Well, i don't know how you read your info BUT if you look at Cinebench witch uses all cores, the 8 core has 33% more performance then the best of the 6 cores. The price is identical with the former top of the line 6 core, witch means that for the same price you get 33% more performance. So for a small business who can't drop 2k on a Xeon it's a very good buy. That is if you have a workflow witch utilizes all the cores(3d rendering, video editing etc). Otherwise the 5820 it's a fantastic buy. It has the performance of the other 6 core for a lower price.

It's true that the top of the line Haswell offers 8 cores for $1000 vs. Ivy's 6 cores at the same price point, but as you can see from the benchmarks (e.g. Handbrake), those two cores don't always add up to a lot of extra performance, largely because the clock speed is a lot lower (3GHz vs 3.6GHz). Cinebench is about the only benchmark that shows any significant benefit from it, the rest are rather disappointing.

And the point of my posting these results was not really to debate the merits of a Haswell upgrade for the average PC builder or SMB that can't afford Xeon's (although that's perhaps a perfectly valid topic, it's not really relevant to members of this forum). Instead my intent was to discuss and debate the merits of these new Haswell CPUs in the context of a Mac Pro refresh.

There's been a few threads in this forum recently about when the nMP might get an update, and whether it's worth waiting for... based on these results (and what we knew previously about Haswell vs Ivy) I'd say a CPU refresh to Haswell is not really worth waiting for (and Apple might even skip it altogether like they have with the Mini). A GPU refresh is a whole other matter, and it will be interesting to see some of the results of the 9100, 8100, and 7100 FirePros.

 

[sirio76]

Otherwise the 5820 it's a fantastic buy. It has the performance of the other 6 core for a lower price.

Not really, all you save on the CPU you will spend on pricier RAM(almost twice the price of DDR3) and motherboard. If and when RAM price will come down then maybe it will be a fantastic buy

 

[pcd109]

Not really, all you save on the CPU you will spend on pricier RAM(almost twice the price of DDR3) and motherboard. If and when RAM price will come down then maybe it will be a fantastic buy

Don't know about this double price. From what i see Crucial DDR4 is on the same price tag with ddr3. As for the motherboards i don't know the prices yet. But it's a jump in performance from the old 4820k, a very large one(2 more cores).

 

[pcd109]

And the point of my posting these results was not really to debate the merits of a Haswell upgrade for the average PC builder or SMB that can't afford Xeon's (although that's perhaps a perfectly valid topic, it's not really relevant to members of this forum). Instead my intent was to discuss and debate the merits of these new Haswell CPUs in the context of a Mac Pro refresh.

A GPU refresh is a whole other matter, and it will be interesting to see some of the results of the 9100, 8100, and 7100 FirePros.

Well, first of all the main benefit of large core count was ALWAYS only on the threaded applications. You may even see a slight degrade in IPC, or single core optimized applications, but this is NOT the scenario for witch you buy this high core count for. You buy them mainly for heavy threaded applications, so you better look again at that Cinebech scores. Second of all, this series of cpu's has nothing to do with mac pro, they are desktop cpu's. The Haswell-EP, witch is the Xeon Haswell, will have some benefits to the macpro. From what is rumored so far the top of the line cpu will increase core count to 14 cores(vs 12 now). I don't know much about the bottom part of the line, but maybe Apple will dump the 4 core from the entry level. I mean it's a 200$ cpu. Really Apple, $200 4 core in a 3k computer??? And last, Dell has already announced new workstations with this new cpu line. Last think Apple wants right now is to send the message that mac pro is on the bottom list of their priorities. Again. This will make the remaining pros flee from Apple ecosystem, and they already have some serious loses on computer front(imac sales are droping 16% year-over-year; mainly because of the non-user replaceable ram). If Apple wants to keep they remaining pros they will update to new cpu's no matter what.

 

[sirio76]

Don't know about this double price. From what i see Crucial DDR4 is on the same price tag with ddr3. As for the motherboards i don't know the prices yet. But it's a jump in performance from the old 4820k, a very large one(2 more cores).

Don't know where you are looking at, but the price in not even near to DDR3.
Here the first example coming out of google search: http://www.newegg.com/global/nz/Pro...ddr4_server_memory-_-12K-00WZ-00008-_-Product
135$ for 8GB DDR4 from Corsair, for my 16GB ECC DDR3 1866mhz modules from Corsair I've payed an average of 160$. So almost double. I've checked price of motherboard too, also in this case they are pricier. Price will come down eventually but untill then the 5820 is not the bargain it seems at first
You can build a 4930k based PC for the same price or probably even less and get identical performance.

 

[Zwhaler]

EDIT: and what is the current state of next-gen GPUs from AMD?

Last I checked they have next gen FirePro's like the W9100

 

[VirtualRain]

Well, first of all the main benefit of large core count was ALWAYS only on the threaded applications. You may even see a slight degrade in IPC, or single core optimized applications, but this is NOT the scenario for witch you buy this high core count for. You buy them mainly for heavy threaded applications, so you better look again at that Cinebech scores. Second of all, this series of cpu's has nothing to do with mac pro, they are desktop cpu's.

Agreed, but not everyone here uses Cinebench... a lot of us use CS, Aperture, FCP, Logic, and a variety of other creative productivity apps and when you look at the full spectrum of benchmarks for Haswell-E, they are disappointing... there's certainly nothing there that would make me want to upgrade my Ivy Bridge.

And if I was among those thinking, "Should I buy a nMP now or wait for a Haswell refresh?" I'm pretty sure I wouldn't wait.

Last think Apple wants right now is to send the message that mac pro is on the bottom list of their priorities. Again. This will make the remaining pros flee from Apple ecosystem, and they already have some serious loses on computer front(imac sales are droping 16% year-over-year; mainly because of the non-user replaceable ram). If Apple wants to keep they remaining pros they will update to new cpu's no matter what.

Not refreshing the Mac Pro with Haswell would very likely stir up all kinds of "the end of the Mac Pro is near" kinds of rhetoric, but the fact is, anyone who's looking seriously at performance, is not going to be wow'd by these Haswell results and are now going to be setting their sights more appropriately on Broadwell and the next gen GPUs because that's where any major improvements are going to have to come from.

 

[VirtualRain]

Last I checked they have next gen FirePro's like the W9100

I guess it depends on how you define "next-gen"?

In my view the W9100 Hawaii core is just an iteration on the W9000 Tahiti core. In fact, even in AMD's terms, Hawaii is GCN 1.1 (vs Tahiti 1.0).

Here's the performance difference (about 15% in OpenCL compute):
Hawaii is the 290X (equivalent to W9100) vs. the Tahiti XT based 280X (used in the W9000/D700)

Full Review Here

The true "next-gen" GPUs from AMD will be on a new 20nm process and I haven't heard much about them yet.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

I guess it depends on how you define "next-gen"?

In my view the W9100 Hawaii core is just an iteration on the W9000 Tahiti core. In fact, even in AMD's terms, Hawaii is GCN 1.1 (vs Tahiti 1.0).

Here's the performance difference (about 15% in OpenCL compute):
Hawaii is the 290X (equivalent to W9100) vs. the Tahiti XT based 280X (used in the W9000/D700)

Full Review Here

The true "next-gen" GPUs from AMD will be on a new 20nm process and I haven't heard much about them yet.

It's OpenGL performance is far better though, around 80%+ in many cases. It's biggest issue is power, and heat. So I' wondering how well binned, the FirePro chips of these are.

 

[cirus]

OP you are forgetting that power seems to have greatly decreased in idle and slightly decreased under load.

The price points have dropped significantly by hundreds of dollars for similar performance. The 5820K is ~$50 more than the 4790k. At microcenter (in store only) the 5820k is $20 more ($299 vs. $279). Thats fantastic value for a 6 core CPU. Take the mac pro and drop $200 off the cost.

http://www.microcenter.com/product/437203/Core_i7-5820k_33_GHz_LGA_2011_V3_Tray_Processor

The chipset has been massively upgraded with Sata 3 (10) and USB 3.0. Sure performance isn't really going anywhere but the price is really cheap.
For the DIY pc builder a LGA 2011 v3 platform is only going to cost $150 more.

For a prebuilt apple device the difference is maybe minor but for a lot of PC builders its pretty big.

 

[pcd109]

Don't know where you are looking at, but the price in not even near to DDR3.
Here the first example coming out of google search: http://www.newegg.com/global/nz/Pro...ddr4_server_memory-_-12K-00WZ-00008-_-Product
135$ for 8GB DDR4 from Corsair, for my 16GB ECC DDR3 1866mhz modules from Corsair I've payed an average of 160$. So almost double. I've checked price of motherboard too, also in this case they are pricier. Price will come down eventually but untill then the 5820 is not the bargain it seems at first
You can build a 4930k based PC for the same price or probably even less and get identical performance.

Not sure about newegg, but in Bucharest the preorder prices for ddr4 are almost identical(and in some cases even lower then ddr3). At this address you can purchase ddr4 Crucial(4gb) for about 80 USD, witch is lower then some 1333Mhz ddr3: http://www.pcgarage.ro/memorii/filtre/general-tip-ddr4/. So in EU the prices are real low. I seriously doubt that in US the prices are higher..... If you count the fact that you can purchase now the 6 core 5820k for the same price as former 4 core 4790k, then, again, i don't know where have you come up with this more expensive scenario. 4930k is much more expensive than 5820k - 250$ more, and the performance is identical(in few cases 5820k is better).

 

[iBug2]

It's OpenGL performance is far better though, around 80%+ in many cases. It's biggest issue is power, and heat. So I' wondering how well binned, the FirePro chips of these are.

80%? Any link for that? The gaming results I've seen puts 290X around 15-20% faster than 280X.

 

[VirtualRain]

OP you are forgetting that power seems to have greatly decreased in idle and slightly decreased under load.

The price points have dropped significantly by hundreds of dollars for similar performance. The 5820K is ~$50 more than the 4790k. At microcenter (in store only) the 5820k is $20 more ($299 vs. $279). Thats fantastic value for a 6 core CPU. Take the mac pro and drop $200 off the cost.

http://www.microcenter.com/product/437203/Core_i7-5820k_33_GHz_LGA_2011_V3_Tray_Processor

The chipset has been massively upgraded with Sata 3 (10) and USB 3.0. Sure performance isn't really going anywhere but the price is really cheap.
For the DIY pc builder a LGA 2011 v3 platform is only going to cost $150 more.

For a prebuilt apple device the difference is maybe minor but for a lot of PC builders its pretty big.

Don't forget the price of DDR4. It's not a cheap platform fight now just because of that.

EDIT: Here's the premium Crucial is charging for DDR4 out of the gate... Although prices will come down...

I certainly would not expect a price cut on a nMP update. Any CPU price advantages will likely be consumed by memory costs or as usual with Apple, what you get for the same price will grow over time. My only concern is that you won't be getting much more at all this time (if they do a Haswell update).

 

[sirio76]

Not sure about newegg, but in Bucharest the preorder prices for ddr4 are almost identical(and in some cases even lower then ddr3). At this address you can purchase ddr4 Crucial(4gb) for about 80 USD, witch is lower then some 1333Mhz ddr3: http://www.pcgarage.ro/memorii/filtre/general-tip-ddr4/. So in EU the prices are real low. I seriously doubt that in US the prices are higher..... If you count the fact that you can purchase now the 6 core 5820k for the same price as former 4 core 4790k, then, again, i don't know where have you come up with this more expensive scenario. 4930k is much more expensive than 5820k - 250$ more, and the performance is identical(in few cases 5820k is better).

Sorry but that link just confirm what I ve already told you. 4Gb of Crucial ballistix DDR3 is going to cost you just 50$ agaist 80$ for the DDR4 in your shop. That's also true for all the other modules, take the 16GB for example 909RON(=270$), for 320$ you can buy 32Gb of crucial DDR3 1866 and also ECC. 1333 DDR3 RAM is pricy just because is old and old modules becomes pricier after several years, get a price quote for old 667mhz modules and you will see even higher prices(even higher than DDR4) but this is not meaning that DDR4 is cheap. So please let's compare just recent 1866 DDR3 In the totally unrealistic scenario that you install just 4GB on your PC then you are certainly going to save same money against a 4930k based alternative, but as soon as you put 16GB(seems the most common scenario today) you are going to add about 130$ for the same amount of RAM and almost 80$ for pricier motherboard(I've tryed to match features with older X79 for a fair comparison), so you will end up spending more or less the same. If you need 32 or 64GB than you will spend significantly more than on old 4930k machine.
Don't know if in Bucharest you have better deal(seems is not the case) but in the rest of the world both new RAM and motherboard are going to cost more, just browse on newegg or amazon or whatever international store to check this fact

 

[cirus]

Don't forget the price of DDR4. It's not a cheap platform fight now just because of that.

EDIT: Here's the premium Crucial is charging for DDR4 out of the gate... Although prices will come down...

Image

I certainly would not expect a price cut on a nMP update. Any CPU price advantages will likely be consumed by memory costs or as usual with Apple, what you get for the same price will grow over time. My only concern is that you won't be getting much more at all this time (if they do a Haswell update).

Not recent, crucial 2133 mhz cl 15 RAM 2 x 8 GB is $203.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=3938566&SID=

The price is dropping fast. By the time apple releases anything using Haswell E (xeon also) the price will have dropped even farther.

Also, I understand all those DDR3 ram kits are for illustrative purposes but they are all out of spec. 1.5V is supported, Apple would never use more.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

80%? Any link for that? The gaming results I've seen puts 290X around 15-20% faster than 280X.

Ah silly me, I based it off D700/7950 scores in 3D Mark. Forgot that doesn't mean a thing for in-game OpenGL.

Jeez, going through the complete Guru3D review, and it seems I've been completely underestimating the D700, and drastically overestimating the 290X.. Looking at that they're holding up very well.
Seems the only issue with them is OS X, although Yosemite did give a near double minimum FPS boost in the likes of Hitman Absolution that's using OpenGL 4.

UHD game benchmarks

http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/radeon-r9-290x-review-benchmarks,29.html

http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/radeon-r9-290x-review-benchmarks,28.html

 

[deconstruct60]

x264 in HandBrake is already AVX2 optimized, AFAIR. And this are only the processors for desktop applications.

The vast majority of the sites that cater to tech porn and overclocking don't use those settings. It is somewhat rationalized on making it a more even "apples to apples" comparison. The processors are all dragged back to the lowest common denominator and compared to how they all run that same set of instructions. However, is really isn't a performance measurement if lowest time ( less time -> more billable hours) is the primary issue.

Very similar issue when funneled through games optimized for hardware from 2-3 years ago ( PCI-e v2 , pre 2012 CPUs, and that era's memory bandwidth constraints ).


The question is whether buying Mac Pro to run software of the past or buying something more forward looking. If in 2016-2018 plan to run circa 2012 software then there isn't much of a difference. If plan to run 2014-2016 software in 2016-2019 then Xeon E5 v3 updates would be an improvement.

 

[pcd109]

Sorry but that link just confirm what I ve already told you. 4Gb of Crucial ballistix DDR3 is going to cost you just 50$ agaist 80$ for the DDR4 in your shop. That's also true for all the other modules, take the 16GB for example 909RON(=270$), for 320$ you can buy 32Gb of crucial DDR3 1866 and also ECC. 1333 DDR3 RAM is pricy just because is old and old modules becomes pricier after several years, get a price quote for old 667mhz modules and you will see even higher prices(even higher than DDR4) but this is not meaning that DDR4 is cheap. So please let's compare just recent 1866 DDR3 In the totally unrealistic scenario that you install just 4GB on your PC then you are certainly going to save same money against a 4930k based alternative, but as soon as you put 16GB(seems the most common scenario today) you are going to add about 130$ for the same amount of RAM and almost 80$ for pricier motherboard(I've tryed to match features with older X79 for a fair comparison), so you will end up spending more or less the same. If you need 32 or 64GB than you will spend significantly more than on old 4930k machine.
Don't know if in Bucharest you have better deal(seems is not the case) but in the rest of the world both new RAM and motherboard are going to cost more, just browse on newegg or amazon or whatever international store to check this fact

Maybe you right, i don't spend too much time to check. But, the fact is that the newest technology is on par with the already old one, give or take few bucks. To me this looks like a very good deal. In 2-3 months(just in time for Christmas) i bet the prices on motherboards will go down and you will be likely spend less for the new 6 core 5820+X99 chipset motherboard. I am waiting to see if Intel will do the same for the Haswell-EP, a 6 core for the price of the current 4 core. Then i could justify a new macpro, if the base model will have 6 cores. If it's not the case i might try for the first time a hackintosh.

 

[deconstruct60]

.... I am waiting to see if Intel will do the same for the Haswell-EP, a 6 core for the price of the current 4 core.

Probably not. The v3 4 core models will be priced around the same as the v2 4 cores models. ( the 1620 v3 will probably be lower and the 'new' 1630 v3 taking similar spot to that of the 1620 v2. )


http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2014/2014083101_Some_details_on_Xeon_E5-1600_v3_CPUs.html

Instead of kneecapped 28 PCIe v3 lane, 6 core models the Xeon E5 v3 will have 40 lanes across the board. Lowest prices means 4 core cap.

Crossfire/SLI are primarily about going to x8 bandwidth interfaces and compromising so the 28 lane limit is a viable trade-off. Overclockers and tweakers are going to make the trade off because most are not looking for max I/O bandwidth.

The Mac Pro won't work with 28 PCIe lanes. It is already close to bandwidth constrained without loosing another 12 lanes.

You can wait for product "old age" for the 6 core to drop. When the v5's come out v3's prices will probably sag. However, short term it probably isn't going to happen.

 

[AidenShaw]

I think that there are two independent questions here that are being treated as one.

#1

Will the Haswell-EP systems offer greatly improved performance, so that most people with an MP6,1 will want to upgrade?

No. The improvement will be minor for most apps. If you have an app that benefits from AVX2, it might be worth considering. Otherwise, stick with your MP6,1 until a big improvement *on your workflow* happens.​

#2

Should Apple update the MP6,1 with Haswell-EP?

Absolutely. If Apple doesn't, "death of Mac Pro" stories will be everywhere. Apple needs to show a commitment to the platform, and ignoring a CPU refresh is showing a lack of commitment.​

 

[N19h7m4r3]

I think that there are two independent questions here that are being treated as one.

#1

Will the Haswell-EP systems offer greatly improved performance, so that most people with an MP6,1 will want to upgrade?

No. The improvement will be minor for most apps. If you have an app that benefits from AVX2, it might be worth considering. Otherwise, stick with your MP6,1 until a big improvement *on your workflow* happens.​

#2

Should Apple update the MP6,1 with Haswell-EP?

Absolutely. If Apple doesn't, "death of Mac Pro" stories will be everywhere. Apple needs to show a commitment to the platform, and ignoring a CPU refresh is showing a lack of commitment.​

Sums it up rather well. Hopefully they update the graphics cards as well.