They were never cheap, but they are now prioritizing the cash over customer satisfaction and reliability.
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Have you noticed the quality of Apple has gotten worse compared to years ago?
- Thread starter Spooner83
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I remember listening to a podcast (John Gruber's I think) and he and his guest (I forget who. Maybe Dalrymple) were talking about this very subject and one of them questioned whether it was Apple's quality that was taking hits lately or were the bugs & such proportionally still the same as before but were becomming more noticeable as more and more people bought Macs/iPhones/iPads.
In thinking about it some more I think maybe that's might be what's going on. That the ammount of bugs hasn't increased but rather the people that notice them are.
Is the complexity worth the loss of reliability? I agree the software is much more complex and I now see reliability issues pop up more often in core software - Safari, Mail, etc. Is incorporating every clever feature worth losing the solid core of reliability that Apple had going for a long time? Windows always tried to be all things to everyone and can be an unreliable mish-mash. Apple seems headed the same way.
I think their hardware is great except the continual removal of any way to modify or repair without taking the device back to apple. We can’t even upgrade RAM now… forget about SSD replacement or upgrade.
I think the advice is not to buy Mac if you want to upgrade it in any way.
As for their software… it’s been better for sure. But for the most part it runs fine and I'm glad they still support Intel Macs for now.
Their environmental commitments will be for nothing if they don’t support Intel macs at least another year or two.
I think the advice is not to buy Mac if you want to upgrade it in any way.
As for their software… it’s been better for sure. But for the most part it runs fine and I'm glad they still support Intel Macs for now.
Their environmental commitments will be for nothing if they don’t support Intel macs at least another year or two.
I have to disagree with the OP here. I've been using Apple products for 15-20 years and haven't noticed a decline in quality, either in terms of hardware or software.
Some people say there are software issues, but I dunno. I haven't had any issues with my iPhone, MacBook, or HomePod Mini. Maybe I don't do a lot of complicated things with them and that's why I haven't noticed anything? Again, I dunno.
Hardware wise, I would say that it's unfortunate that we can't upgrade parts of MacBooks anymore but my M2 Air is the best laptop I've ever used.
Think of all the hardware problems we've had in the past that are now gone. Antennagate. Hinge issues. The butterfly keyboard. I would say Apple hardware is better now because those things are gone.
I guess my only real complaints are that Siri isn't very good, and Apple hasn't "wowed" me with anything since the M1 came out. Overall, though, I'm really happy with where things are.
Some people say there are software issues, but I dunno. I haven't had any issues with my iPhone, MacBook, or HomePod Mini. Maybe I don't do a lot of complicated things with them and that's why I haven't noticed anything? Again, I dunno.
Hardware wise, I would say that it's unfortunate that we can't upgrade parts of MacBooks anymore but my M2 Air is the best laptop I've ever used.
Think of all the hardware problems we've had in the past that are now gone. Antennagate. Hinge issues. The butterfly keyboard. I would say Apple hardware is better now because those things are gone.
I guess my only real complaints are that Siri isn't very good, and Apple hasn't "wowed" me with anything since the M1 came out. Overall, though, I'm really happy with where things are.
iOS 8 was terrible. It was the first time I got a BSOD on my iPhone. I know other users have expressed this sentiment here as well, but I feel like ever since Scott Forstall was ousted, software quality has gone down. It literally started with iOS 7, and OS X Lion. Which, by the way, was Craig Federighi‘s first time taking charge of the Mac OS team after Bertron Serlet left. Rene Ritchie said in one of his videos that Scott did not think that iOS needed any more new features after iOS 6 because iOS did not need to be complicated, and he didn’t want features like AirDrop. Rene then goes on to say that it was Craig that was advocating for those features. He doesn’t outright say it, but I feel like Rene kind of implied that, “Yeah, software may have some problems as a result of being complicated, but at least we have more features.” I feel like that mindset is flawed given the fact that Apple likes to say that they make the hardware, operating system, and software. And when it’s constantly glitchy year after year, it gets a little old. And one last thing, I’m not saying the software was perfect under Scott either, but I have absolutely noticed a difference since Craig has taken over.
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Everything I currently own feels up to par with Apple products I have owned in the past. Started with a 5th Generation iPod in 2005 and then I eventually bought a MacBook Pro and iPhone 4 in 2010. I have been 100% Apple since.
My M1 Air, 13 Pro, Apple TV, Airpods, and HomePods all work perfectly fine. I do acknowledge they are not the newest models, though.
Unless things have changed in the past year or two, I don’t see any difference.
My M1 Air, 13 Pro, Apple TV, Airpods, and HomePods all work perfectly fine. I do acknowledge they are not the newest models, though.
Unless things have changed in the past year or two, I don’t see any difference.
I find syncing to be one of the worst issues I face. Music, for instance, and playlists. Pretty much any time I add a song to a playlist, every other device makes a +1 copy of the playlist so I have to manually go to those devices, add the song to the original playlist, and delete the new one.
Or Calendar. I am constantly having to go back and remove the default alert on my calendar entries. It's like Apple either thinks it knows what I want better than I do and so constantly overrides my choices, or some syncing issue somewhere is rewriting them back to some default version. It's so frustrating.
And then there's just the random resetting of settings. I'll suddenly wonder wtf something isn't working the way I expect it to and go into settings, which itself these days is a convoluted and unintuitive nightmare of seemingly endless digging, only to find Apple has decided I'm better off with some different setting I've reset a dozen times before to something I actually want.
And yeah, I've given up on Siri. I have to speak so clearly and slowly for anything to have even a half decent chance of working that I find it easier to do whatever I was going to do with it manually.
I really want Apple to take a step back, breathe, and stop developing a thousand useless features and actually concentrate on making core features work well, or just work at all. Apple is supposed to be the company of 'ease of use' not 'a bajillionty options that make everything so much harder and crappier'.
Windows has that market cornered.
Or Calendar. I am constantly having to go back and remove the default alert on my calendar entries. It's like Apple either thinks it knows what I want better than I do and so constantly overrides my choices, or some syncing issue somewhere is rewriting them back to some default version. It's so frustrating.
And then there's just the random resetting of settings. I'll suddenly wonder wtf something isn't working the way I expect it to and go into settings, which itself these days is a convoluted and unintuitive nightmare of seemingly endless digging, only to find Apple has decided I'm better off with some different setting I've reset a dozen times before to something I actually want.
And yeah, I've given up on Siri. I have to speak so clearly and slowly for anything to have even a half decent chance of working that I find it easier to do whatever I was going to do with it manually.
I really want Apple to take a step back, breathe, and stop developing a thousand useless features and actually concentrate on making core features work well, or just work at all. Apple is supposed to be the company of 'ease of use' not 'a bajillionty options that make everything so much harder and crappier'.
Windows has that market cornered.
Apple needs to pay more attention to its iPhone business as that’s over 50% of its business. People don’t upgrade as often when there aren’t enough worth while features and new hardware
I give Apple credit as its products work seamlessly with everything else
QC has improved in recent years
But there’s always room for more
I give Apple credit as its products work seamlessly with everything else
QC has improved in recent years
But there’s always room for more
The software also did way less. More features = more bugs, and this, combined with the fact that there are a ton more Mac and iPhone users than previously, has led to a significant increase in user-reported issues and a greater demand for technical support.
It's very important to understand that most of the opinions on here are based on individual experience, rather than a more global consensus. The fact Apple are doing so well, shows it's doing something right, regardless of what some individuals might think. It's rise as a company to having a teeny fraction of the market share, to being one of the biggest players, is evidence of its success.
Anecdotally, amongst all computer users I've known, those with Apple products tend to moan a lot less. They tend to have far less issues. Windows isn't that bad these days, but I remember the olden days, and people actually in tears because of some Windows related issue. Many of those issues were what forced many people to stump up and buy Apple products instead. I've owned Windows machines as well, and I'll never go back unless forced to. Apple has become synonymous with quality and easy of use, and this is borne out by global experience. The fact that other manufacturers have been forced to copy Apple, speaks volumes.
Anecdotally, amongst all computer users I've known, those with Apple products tend to moan a lot less. They tend to have far less issues. Windows isn't that bad these days, but I remember the olden days, and people actually in tears because of some Windows related issue. Many of those issues were what forced many people to stump up and buy Apple products instead. I've owned Windows machines as well, and I'll never go back unless forced to. Apple has become synonymous with quality and easy of use, and this is borne out by global experience. The fact that other manufacturers have been forced to copy Apple, speaks volumes.
The M2 MacBook Air is certainly a design fail. Taking the M1 with a 13.8-watt TDP and decent heat spreader to a 20-watt M2 with a thin piece of graphite foil was idiotic. Then layer on making the base SSD configuration run at half the speed of the prior model. One can only hope that Apple takes the lessons from the tepid M2 MacBook Air sales to heart and properly handles the M3 MacBook Air design. It seems likely at this point that we will see the base memory bumped to 12Gb but marketing seems to wag the dog too much internally so that I have doubts about the base storage being properly addressed.
People aren’t upgrading because apple makes its products last. My Xs Max is still going strong and although I was promised a new shiny 15PM for a holiday gift I may wait until next year. Many people I know don’t upgrade their TVs or Cars or Bluetooth headphones every year.
Of course. The saying perfection is the enemy of great applies.
Gonna have to disagree, mostly. Hardware quality is impeccable. I have a $1600 windows laptop (2023 model), the trackpad “clicks” when you just tap it (not the hinge, it is just poorly secured to the frame) Sleep mode is still a tossup on windows whether you will open the screen to 100% battery or zero. Screen is acceptable, but my M1 14” looks way better in every aspect. Oh, and I forgot - the M1 is silent 95% of the time, unless I am really pushing it. The windows machine cranks the fans for opening 1 too many chrome tabs. And battery life is anywhere from 1.5 - 10 hours. On my MBP I know I can reliably get 6-7 hours even when doing heavy tasks.
Now on the software side, I really have no issues with Apple’s own apps. The biggest problems for software for me have been just inconsistencies in the developer tooling over the past few years. Things that worked in iOS 10-16 suddenly are broken in iOS 17. I get Apple only wants the latest and greatest in the app store, but basically all this is doing is forcing all developers to subscription pricing models. I remember a day back in the 90’s when you could take a floppy disk with software from 10 years ago, and it would still run on Windows 98. I’d guess there are exactly zero apps from iOS 2.0 that would run on iOS 17 today without changes.
Now on the software side, I really have no issues with Apple’s own apps. The biggest problems for software for me have been just inconsistencies in the developer tooling over the past few years. Things that worked in iOS 10-16 suddenly are broken in iOS 17. I get Apple only wants the latest and greatest in the app store, but basically all this is doing is forcing all developers to subscription pricing models. I remember a day back in the 90’s when you could take a floppy disk with software from 10 years ago, and it would still run on Windows 98. I’d guess there are exactly zero apps from iOS 2.0 that would run on iOS 17 today without changes.
Eh..Wallpapers should load when you select Wallpaper. Seems like they don’t care more than the complexities of tackling having wallpapers there when you open Wallpapers in settings.
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On one hand I agree, because Home and Siri are extremely buggy with constant conflicts. On the other hand, I think Mac OS has become extremely stable and snappy. I work with multiple drafting and rendering applications and everything keeps getting better.
I do wish apple home was better. Everything will be working fine, but then say my wife streams music from her phone to the HomePods that are synced to the TV, well after that I will have to reset them to get them to pair to the tv again. Or if I ask the mini in the office to play something g by voice, then try to use it later as the default option for my Mac, it just spins and says can’t connect. These problems are consistent, not intermittent, and that is a crime because I assume apple has people dedicated to fixing this kind of stuff.
I do wish apple home was better. Everything will be working fine, but then say my wife streams music from her phone to the HomePods that are synced to the TV, well after that I will have to reset them to get them to pair to the tv again. Or if I ask the mini in the office to play something g by voice, then try to use it later as the default option for my Mac, it just spins and says can’t connect. These problems are consistent, not intermittent, and that is a crime because I assume apple has people dedicated to fixing this kind of stuff.
Compared to America, or UK, or Hong Kong, I agree that lots of Europeans strongly dislike Apple, and mostly because of how overpriced their products are in that territory. It feels unjustified when compared to US/HK pricing, and it's even higher than the UK, which is already miles above US/HK.
I think apple has gone a long way to right the ship since the days of portable stoves and Catalina kernel panics. I remember my Intel MBP that would alternate between frying itself, locking up, black screening, or randomly dropping clocks back to 2005 speeds. A long way for sure.
Yeah, I mean it's not hate as much as not resonating with the brand. Most can afford it and especially on a plan, but it just makes no sense to when you can spend less and get essentially the same thing with a different logo. Apple no longer has a build quality/OS advantage (both of which have gotten worse as most on this thread agree), nor the ecosystem one because the reality is that most people nowadays just use their phone for everything, also in Europe not many are buying MacBooks anyway. Which is a shame, I think the M1 Air provides the best value in personal computing, it's really the most reasonable Apple has ever been. But this stigma is attached to the whole brand unfortunately and people automatically see them as something that's not worth it/unreliable/expensive to repair. There's actually a super huge misconception about Macs in Europe that they become "slow to use" 2 years in like an iPhone, and that you can't download stuff from the internet - essentially that they're locked down the same ways iPhones are, that you have to get stuff from the App Store only. That it has no file system, or as they say it has no "My Computer like Windows does". I always have to explain to people that it's not true and that Macs actually whine less than Windows when you're doing computer stuff on them.
Apple has a long way to go in Europe but unfortunately they seem super detached from us as a market. It's almost like they're saying "Okay, you don't like us - we won't do anything about it". Which is the opposite of what corporations aim to do usually. Or just think they’ve reached some optimal level here and have settled, which is false. They have brand misconceptions to beat.
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Most people also don’t power cycle devices every once in a while. Yeah, when your device has been on for months-years straight it’s gonna have problems. But people are so afraid of their devices dying that they keep them on constantly.
I’m not saying bugs don’t exist, but I’m multi ecosystem and my Apple stuff works WAY better than my Windows and Linux devices. I don’t have to play with clock speeds and power management just to keep those stupid intel CPUS from cooking the surface of the planet or crashing entirely. Not that everyone deals with those issues, but I don’t have them on my Apple stuffs.
I’m not saying bugs don’t exist, but I’m multi ecosystem and my Apple stuff works WAY better than my Windows and Linux devices. I don’t have to play with clock speeds and power management just to keep those stupid intel CPUS from cooking the surface of the planet or crashing entirely. Not that everyone deals with those issues, but I don’t have them on my Apple stuffs.
I got into the Apple game later than many of you—2001 for an iPod and 2007 for a white MacBook. Since then I’ve owned several iPods, four iMacs, one Mac Mini, six iPads, nine iPhones, two original HomePods, one HomePod Mini, at least eight Apple TVs, two Apple Watches, etc., and this doesn’t include the equipment used by my wife or son. On a scale of one to 10 I rate the hardware a nine and the software about a seven.
I don’t give a seven because of bugs so much as a lack of integration between a lot of the programs. For example, it’s not easy to get names, emails and addresses out of Mail and into Contacts, and then get the correct contact into Calendar. Spotlight never seems to find what I’m looking for. The Home app is a mess! And Siri is only good for turning subtitles on and off on the Apple TVs.
Where Apple fails for me is support. Years ago it was great, but starting with the top-of-line iMac 27 ($5,000) I bought in 2019 it’s gone downhill fast. Support never could help with issues relating to Music on my Mac. Nor could they ever explain why I get dropouts on my iMac when using AirPods 2 or 3 and AirPods Max, while my Bose QC35IIs work great.
However, the big fail for me happened about a month ago when I received my Apple Watch 9. I could not get Blood Oxygen, ECG or Sleep to work correctly—or at all. After hours on the phone and talking to multiple folks, I was basically told, in-so-many words, “You’re too old and your health is too poor to work with our devices.”
Everyone told me to write Tim Cook. I didn’t. I just chalked it up to one of my maxims: Service sucks everywhere all the time.
Eventually those functions did work correctly after the first Watch OS update.
I don’t give a seven because of bugs so much as a lack of integration between a lot of the programs. For example, it’s not easy to get names, emails and addresses out of Mail and into Contacts, and then get the correct contact into Calendar. Spotlight never seems to find what I’m looking for. The Home app is a mess! And Siri is only good for turning subtitles on and off on the Apple TVs.
Where Apple fails for me is support. Years ago it was great, but starting with the top-of-line iMac 27 ($5,000) I bought in 2019 it’s gone downhill fast. Support never could help with issues relating to Music on my Mac. Nor could they ever explain why I get dropouts on my iMac when using AirPods 2 or 3 and AirPods Max, while my Bose QC35IIs work great.
However, the big fail for me happened about a month ago when I received my Apple Watch 9. I could not get Blood Oxygen, ECG or Sleep to work correctly—or at all. After hours on the phone and talking to multiple folks, I was basically told, in-so-many words, “You’re too old and your health is too poor to work with our devices.”
Everyone told me to write Tim Cook. I didn’t. I just chalked it up to one of my maxims: Service sucks everywhere all the time.
Eventually those functions did work correctly after the first Watch OS update.
The vast majority of users will just ignore the bugs and glitches. But it may be worth it for Apple’s most-devoted, highest dollar customers (those who upgrade frequently and those of us on this forum). Honestly, they’re not just adding features these days but seem to be changing things just for the sake of change now.
I also agree with this! I've been using Macs since 1992, and even though I still think their hardware is great, I have to admit that their software, like iOS and MacOS, has been going downhill. The latest Safari release had some pretty embarrassing bugs and UI glitches. The "Find My" app is a mess with tons of bugs and UI glitches. Perhaps same teams that worked on the Maps-app. Absolutely no quality control! I suggest take some money from their markting budget and hire a person that can spend some time with testing the apps properly.
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Agreed. To this day you can still use up every bit of space on your iPhone to the point where it won't even turn on. that's something that Andrid has never had an issue with. Why Apple hasn't fixed that issue that's been around since Ive got rid of aqua is beyond me.