HDR & non-HDR content works on MacBook Pro's screen, but NOT ON EXTERNAL MONITOR

[srgz]

Apple has made this work properly on their own devices, but nothing else, and there is NO reason for it. Everything from pretty old MacBook Pro laptops with a measly 500 nits of brightness, to their flagship $5K Pro Display XDR with 1,600 nits work with both HDR and SDR content at the same time just fine. There is NO reason why they can't make this work on non-Apple external displays. None.

The reason why they're able to make it work on their own screens is because they have complete control over the brightness from software and they also know exactly how bright they are able to get. EDR control data is sent directly to the displays. You can't get this on third party displays. Hence the brightness slider workaround on Windows. If you could do what Apple does on any screen there would be no need for an SDR brightness slider in the first place...

You say there is NO industry standard for HDR - which is totally correct and accurate... but because there is NO standard, that means that Apple's own displays can NEVER, EVER be (even close to) 100% accurate on all the different flavors of HDR content different services/content use... they're basically forced to take their best educated guess at all of this...

How it works is they render all the different HDR standards and their metadata to their own EDR standard, and they do it with better consistency and accuracy than anyone else does (have you seen any lower budget VESA "HDR certified" LED backlit screens that are under 1000 nits? They look complete trash). It's also future proof as it allows them to add additional formats in the future should they arise. Also, several of their screens / devices are actually Dolby Vision certified.

 

[okkibs]

That is not an HDR on/off toggle.

It is a HDR on/off toggle. Of course it is a color management preset as well, all that means is that this switch doesn't just enable and disable HDR, it also sets the required profile for each mode. If you disable HDR here and then launch an app with HDR support it give you an error that HDR is currently not supported on this display.

The reason you don't think of it as a HDR toggle is that as OP mentioned Apple combines SDR and HDR content on the same display well and the full 500/600 nits remain available for SDR content. Technically you don't actually get the full brightness of sustained 1000 nits in SDR mode to begin with (that can actually be enabled with third party apps if you need that and don't mind the impact on battery life) but Apple ships these Macbooks with SDR brightness limited to 500/600 nits and reserves further brightness for HDR content.

If Apple allowed 1000 nits in SDR mode and then upon enabling HDR limited SDR to 500/600 nits, then you'd notice quite a change with this toggle.

The 500 nits SDR limit has been chosen arbitrarily by Apple and was raised by Apple to 600 nits on the latest MBP models. Arbitrarily in this case meaning that they probably saw a bigger impact on battery life on the older models and and found 600 nits to be within the promised battery runtime with the more efficient M3 models.

But that's why the HDR mode is so seamless, you get the "full" brightness in SDR mode and then HDR just gets ridiculously bright. There aren't any other displays of this quality on the market that can reach close to 1600 nits brightness, certainly not 4 years ago when they first launched.

On that AW34 I am getting that has a good HDR experience and doesn't break the bank (no real 10-bit panel like the XDR display etc.) the peak HDR brightness reaches 800-1000 nits, SDR doesn't even reach 500 nits, just half that. Doesn't leave much headroom to do it the way Apple does it. The should of course still give us the brightness slider that OP is missing.

(have you seen any lower budget VESA "HDR certified" LED backlit screens that are under 1000 nits? They look complete trash

...but that is precisely because they lack the extra brightness of Apple screens, the typical HDR400 certification is trash since you just can't get usable HDR with such low brightness. It has nothing to do with Apple doing anything special, they just use the right hardware for HDR. If you had a monitor with similar specs as the XDR display it would display HDR content just fine.

 

[srgz]

It’s not an HDR toggle as with third party displays, as you don’t get the ability to combine both luminance and color in a single managed profile - unless you’re using an Apple screen. This is an objectively superior way of doing things.

My Asus Pa32UCX can do just over 1200 nits and has close to 90% coverage of BT.2020. There are actually plenty of displays (and TVs) on the market now that can at least come close to the Pro Display XDR, and for less than half the price.

Tbh I don’t quite understand why Asus wants you to put the monitor in SDR mode to calibrate it…wouldn’t you need to create a separate color profile to use when HDR is turned on? There’s a lot about this that I still don’t get I suppose.

Re: choosing 500 nits for SDR, that’s actually a good thing IMO.

No one except people working in literal dark rooms doing editing and qc / post wants SDR content limited to 100 nits.

Unless you mean they should allow you to make it higher if you want to? I suppose they should probably do that, as you said BetterDisplay can unlock that functionality.

 

[srgz]

Alright so I've finally figured this out --

GitHub - waydabber/BetterDisplay: Unlock your displays on your Mac! Flexible HiDPI scaling, XDR/HDR extra brightness, virtual screens, DDC control, extra dimming, PIP/streaming, EDID override and lots more!

Unlock your displays on your Mac! Flexible HiDPI scaling, XDR/HDR extra brightness, virtual screens, DDC control, extra dimming, PIP/streaming, EDID override and lots more! - waydabber/BetterDisplay

github.com

This MacOS tool gives you the brightness slider and HDR calibration that Windows provides, but on MacOS to use with third party monitors. Problem solved! Why didn't I know about this before haha..

This app also allows you to fix the 4K scaling issue (if you’ve ever heard people say 4K displays look like garbage on macOS; this fixes that! Wow…).

This section here explains all the technical aspects of how it works!

XDR and HDR brightness upscaling

Unlock your displays on your Mac! Flexible HiDPI scaling, XDR/HDR extra brightness, virtual screens, DDC control, extra dimming, PIP/streaming, EDID override and lots more! - waydabber/BetterDisplay

github.com

 

[originalmagneto]

Alright so I've finally figured this out --

GitHub - waydabber/BetterDisplay: Unlock your displays on your Mac! Flexible HiDPI scaling, XDR/HDR extra brightness, virtual screens, DDC control, extra dimming, PIP/streaming, EDID override and lots more!

Unlock your displays on your Mac! Flexible HiDPI scaling, XDR/HDR extra brightness, virtual screens, DDC control, extra dimming, PIP/streaming, EDID override and lots more! - waydabber/BetterDisplay

github.com

This MacOS tool gives you the brightness slider and HDR calibration that Windows provides, but on MacOS to use with third party monitors. Problem solved! Why didn't I know about this before haha..

This app also allows you to fix the 4K scaling issue (if you’ve ever heard people say 4K displays look like garbage on macOS; this fixes that! Wow…).

This section here explains all the technical aspects of how it works!

XDR and HDR brightness upscaling

Unlock your displays on your Mac! Flexible HiDPI scaling, XDR/HDR extra brightness, virtual screens, DDC control, extra dimming, PIP/streaming, EDID override and lots more! - waydabber/BetterDisplay

github.com

Sadly, the DDC control does not work on my Samsung Viewfinity S90 display :/

I wish Apple would figure out a clever solution for external "HDR capable" 3rd party displays because I'm not shelling out 6k € for the XDR

 

[learjet]

The insights shared in this discussion are enlightening. The manual toggling between HDR and SDR modes proves to be impractical. I resonate entirely with your discoveries, that only Apple somehow makes mixing SDR and HDR content seamlessly possible. As I've deliberated between acquiring two Dell U2723 displays versus the ASD (inclining towards the more economical Dell option), my inclination now leans towards absorbing the cost and opting for the ASD, perhaps even acquiring two ASDs (despite them not being real HDR displays at all, but they are still able to seamlessly show HDR content mixed with SDR). Alas, my wallet will lament the decision.

Apropos: Interesting thing is that I've never seen any mention of Apples "EDR" technology in any ASD review. Ever. Is it really the case, that the ASD, despite not officially being HDR capable, utilizes EDR to at least rudimentary display HDR or Dolby Vision content, seamlessly mixed with SDR?

 

[Toutou]

Is it really the case, that the ASD, despite not officially being HDR capable, utilizes EDR to at least rudimentary display HDR or Dolby Vision content, seamlessly mixed with SDR?

Yes, all modern Apple displays on all their devices, including the ASD, utilize EDR, and will always try to use any brightness headroom available for HDR content.

 

[okkibs]

despite them not being real HDR displays at all, but they are still able to seamlessly show HDR content mixed with SDR

Apple does not advertise the ASD as being HDR capable since it isn't and accordingly there is no HDR option in the system settings for it to get that HDR+SDR mode you mentioned. Displays with 10-bit processing capability will still be able to play HDR in SDR mode which is most displays on the market these days and the ASD is one of them and very likely that Dell as well. The HDR+SDR mode is only available on Apple displays that actually support HDR which Apple calls XDR and that is available on the XDR Display as well as the 14" and 16" MBPs. What you'll likely want is to actually play HDR content in HDR mode, which the ASD can't do as it lacks the contrast ratio due to 600 nits of maximum brightness and static backlighting.

Thus, you won't gain anything choosing the ASD over the Dell. The Dell doesn't do HDR either, it has that HDR400 certification that merely misleads customers who might think it can do HDR as 400 nits of peak brightness are enough to get this certification and that's obviously not going to cut it for HDR.

If you want actual HDR with an external monitor on MacOS that isn't the XDR display you'll need a HDR capable monitor that then shows up with the HDR toggle.

Yes, all modern Apple displays on all their devices, including the ASD, utilize EDR, and will always try to use any brightness headroom available for HDR content.

The determining factor for HDR is contrast ratio. With the static backlighting of the ASD's panel that means the dark spots will be illuminated just as well as the bright spots no matter the maximum brightness. Even if that panel had 2000 nits of brightness it would light up the black parts of the image with 2000 nits destroying the contrast. The ASD does not have the contrast ratio required for showing HDR content in HDR mode.

What brightness headroom do you expect on a 600 nits panel to begin with?

 

[Toutou]

The determining factor for HDR is contrast ratio. With the static backlighting of the ASD's panel that means the dark spots will be illuminated just as well as the bright spots no matter the maximum brightness. Even if that panel had 2000 nits of brightness it would light up the black parts of the image with 2000 nits destroying the contrast. The ASD does not have the contrast ratio required for showing HDR content in HDR mode.

What brightness headroom do you expect on a 600 nits panel to begin with?

I'm not sure what you're arguing for or against. The question was very clear: "despite not officially being HDR capable, utilizes EDR to at least rudimentary display HDR or Dolby Vision content, seamlessly mixed with SDR"

"learjet" clearly understands that there's only so much you can do with a 600nit panel and that the resulting image quality won't be comparable to an expensive, bright, true-HDR OLED.

My answer was equally clear: Yes, the display does use EDR and what EDR does is that it tries to make HDR highlights (i.e. highlights brighter than UI white) "pop" using any brightness headroom available (even though that headroom is very small on a 600nit panel). No one said anything about contrast ratio or being an expensive HDR panel.

You can watch the Apple Developer video on EDR if you'd like to understand better how EDR works, including how it works with low-brightness displays.

Apple does not advertise the ASD as being HDR capable since it isn't and accordingly there is no HDR option in the system settings for it to get that HDR+SDR mode you mentioned.

As far as I know, ASD "not being HDR capable" is not why there is no HDR toggle in the Settings. It's because it's an Apple display, and Apple displays (including the Pro Display XDR and the 14" and 16" MBP displays) use EDR instead of a dedicated toggle.

On the other hand, as you've said yourself, there are 400nit displays that show the toggle, not because they can actually display any meaningful HDR, but because they advertise the capability to the computer.
An HDR toggle basically means that the display says it's HDR capable, but it's not an Apple display so it can't use EDR to seamlessly integrate HDR content into a SDR UI, with the difference between the two changing dynamically depending on the available brightness headroom.

 

[okkibs]

I'm not sure what you're arguing for or against. The question was very clear: "despite not officially being HDR capable, utilizes EDR to at least rudimentary display HDR or Dolby Vision content, seamlessly mixed with SDR"

The cheaper monitor can "at least rudimentary display HDR" as well. That is why I am arguing against purchasing the ASD over a cheaper option. Monitors can display HDR content as long as their signal processing is 10-bit capable which is the requirement for HDR content playback. It will be just as "seamlessly mixed with SDR" because everything's SDR.

You call HDR "true-HDR". But that's the only HDR there is. What do you call the ASD's HDR then, "fake-HDR"? The ASD does not have the contrast ratio required to display HDR. Using brightness headroom is entirely irrelevant when the bad contrast ratio makes every black spot in the picture light up bright grey. That's why it's important to inform about contrast ratio as it's the very basics of what makes HDR look so great and it shows there is no point in paying extra for the ASD to play HDR content.

To put this into actual numbers, the ASD's contrast ratio is about 1,100:1. The minimum you need for HDR is about 20,000:1. Dolby recomends 200,000:1. And the XDR Display that's about as good as it gets for the money is specified at 1,000,000:1. Why would you recommend anyone to buy the ASD over a cheaper option just for the HDR playback when it clearly cannot do it?

I am a fan of Apple's display and I do think the ASD is worth the money - but it needs to be clear that it's no better at displaying HDR content than any other cheaper monitor. I have no problem recommending the ASD for the image quality but expectations need to be curbed when someone reads your post thinking that the ASD might be better at HDR than others. No, your answer actually isn't clear, how is anyone supposed to interpret "EDR tries to make highlights pop"? Trying is all it will ever do.

As far as I know, ASD "not being HDR capable" is not why there is no HDR toggle in the Settings. It's because it's an Apple display, and Apple displays (including the Pro Display XDR and the 14" and 16" MBP displays) use EDR instead of a dedicated toggle.

Since I am sitting in front of the XDR Display I actually do know and there is indeed an HDR toggle. Of course it toggles between HDR off and mixed mode on an Apple display.

 

[Toutou]

Since I am sitting in front of the XDR Display I actually do know and there is indeed an HDR toggle.

Does it actually? I don't remember it having one, like in this video. That's how I formed my idea about Apple not showing the toggle for all EDR-capable displays.

 

[learjet]

You two, thanks for your lively discussion. Unfortunately, I thought I understand how Apple approaches EDR, but now I don't. Again.

The problem, which I currently do experience on my el-cheapo LG HDR 4k display is following: Whenever I switch on HDR (currently using Windows 11) all UI colors immediately get all washed out, whites get all grey, the contrast gets all f**ed up and HDR is, to sum it up, completely non-usable when mixing HDR and SDR content. In short: Watching HDR videos is great, but you can't use the mode at all while viewing normal UI (SDR) content. Windows 11's slider to shift the white point for SDR content doesn't do anything to remedy that, in my experience.

I thought - I hoped - that this magic Apple EDR tech works like when viewing HDR photos on my iPhone 15 in Apple's stock photos app: When viewing HDR photos (they look gorgeous), the display smoothly fades to HDR color reproduction, while the surrounding UI color smoothly shifts (it gets slightly grey but not washed out or unreadable). Switching to different (non-HDR) apps immediately shifts the color mode back to pristine SDR reproduction. That, in my own words, is how I'd like all my devices to behave when viewing mixed HDR and SDR content (sorry I'm not an English native speaker).

I really hoped the ASD works like my iPhone 15, but actually you say, it wouldn't at all show HDR content and buying an ASD wouldn't get my anything over buying cheap Dell displays? Actually it would get me less, since the Dell at least has a manual HDR mode? Does buying an ASD not get me that seamless switching between HDR and SDR content (despite HDR content not really looking "high dynamic" on the ASD)?

And, bonus question: What's that HDR switch on the Pro Display XDR actually doing, since everything is managed by EDR anyway?

 

[okkibs]

I thought - I hoped - that this magic Apple EDR tech works like when viewing HDR photos on my iPhone 15 in Apple's stock photos app

This comes down to the actual hardware capabilities of the display. You need to understand the difference between a device being able to play HDR media at all, and a device's hardware to actually be able to show it in HDR mode as well.

The iPhone 15 is the first non-pro iPhone that features HDR-capable hardware, you can see this in the specs Apple lists: Super Retina XDR display. Apple calls HDR XDR, because marketing. Further down the specs say: 2,000,000:1 contrast ratio (typical)
1000 nits max brightness (typical); 1600 nits peak brightness (HDR); 2000 nits peak brightness (outdoor)

So this is a fully HDR capable display with specs just like the 32" Apple XDR Display. When you view HDR content on your iPhone not only is it capable of playing the HDR content at all, the hardware is also capable of displaying the HDR content in HDR.

Unless your LG monitor has similar hardware specs with 1000+ nits of brightness and a high contrast ratio (with hardware such as OLED panels or support for local dimming) it won't be able to play HDR media in HDR mode. Even if you have the HDR switch it will at best up the brightness in bright scenes simulating a small part of what HDR is like. The only reason colors might "pop" is that the display will be at 100% brightness.

In short: Watching HDR videos is great, but you can't use the mode at all while viewing normal UI (SDR) content.

Try watching the HDR video without enabling HDR with the slider. It should play the HDR video like any other SDR video and it will look the same as any other SDR content. If your monitor actually does have the hardware for proper HDR then enabling the HDR slider will give you a much better looking HDR video, but that only works if the display's hardware is capable. And the ASD's hardware isn't.

Actually it would get me less, since the Dell at least has a manual HDR mode? Does buying an ASD not get me that seamless switching between HDR and SDR content

It won't get you less, or more. Technically you do get that seamless switching as you call it, but again, the ASD doesn't have HDR capable hardware. It can adjust the brightness but it's a cheap trick that has nothing to do with HDR. That seamless switching is totally optional, you can play HDR media in SDR mode on all displays (as long as they are able to process 10-bit HDR content at all, which most can nowadays).

HDR is being able to blast bright parts of the image with 1000+ nits whilst simultaneously keeping black parts of the image black. Monitors like the ASD have a static backlight, if you set it to 600 nits brightness then the bright parts will look nice but the dark parts will not be black, they'll be grey, because the backlight and brightness setting applies to the entire display.

To work around this HDR capable hardware has a feature called local dimming. It allows to turn off the backlight almost completely in dark parts whilst still doing the maximum 1000+ nits on the bright parts. That is what the Apple XDR Display uses, but the ASD doesn't have it. Your LG might have it, but I don't know what LG monitor you got. (The 5K Ultrafine does not have it.)

Your iPhone is actually even better because it uses OLED where each individual pixel lights up or can remain off, so there is no need for local dimming and light doesn't bleed from a bright part into a dark part. This is why your iPhone has a contrast ratio even better than that of the Apple XDR display. 2 million:1 vs. 1 million:1. Again the ASD's contrast ratio is 1,100:1.

So the seamless switching you'd get with the ASD does adjust the brightness for HDR content, which is what you seem to want, but it can't change the fact that 600 nits with no dimming will never be HDR. To put differently, if you put a cheap non-HDR monitor next to the ASD and then the XDR Display next to that and watch HDR content on all three, you will notice a small improvement from the cheap monitor to the ASD and then a huge jump from the ASD to the XDR Display. I personally wouldn't want to pay extra for the ASD for that. I still recommend the ASD for its build quality and tendency for Apple hardware to last a long time, but if you are paying more money assuming you get to view HDR content in actual HDR then you should be aware the hardware doesn't support it.

You can get a display from a different manufacturer that has the 1000 nits and the local dimming and then you do get HDR cheaper, because obviously few people want to pay extra for the Apple XDR display just for watching HDR content occasionally. But then you are of course stuck with the HDR toggle in MacOS again where either the entire display is in HDR mode or in SDR mode, which of course is extremely inconvenient.

The important part is that you can try this out yourself to see the difference if you have a monitor that lacks HDR capable hardware. Keep HDR off and play HDR content, you will see it plays just fine. Then enable HDR and see how different it looks. You can bring a Macbook to an Apple Store and try it out on a displayed ASD yourself. Or maybe there is a retailer in your area that has one on display. I believe with the ASD you can also toggle the mixed mode. Then you'll see a direct comparison and you can decide if you want to pay extra for it.

What I can tell you is that the ASD is a great display that might make colors "pop" a bit more and if you have one already then that's a nice bonus. I just wouldn't want to pay extra just for that. And you seem to be expecting HDR like on your iPhone and for the reasons explained above it will never look like that. The cheapest way to get such a XDR display is by purchasing a 14" or 16" MBP. The Dell you are looking at isn't HDR capable either.

And, bonus question: What's that HDR switch on the Pro Display XDR actually doing, since everything is managed by EDR anyway?

That was discussed on the first page of this thread. It will force HDR content to be shown as if it was regular SDR content. You won't get any HDR despite the hardware being capable. It deactivates HDR functionality and if you try to launch an app that requires HDR it will not be able to run. I turn HDR off on purpose at night because 1000+ nits is not pleasant for my eyes in the darkness. And on Macbooks with an XDR display turning it off on the go will conserve battery if you want to watch HDR content. Imagine you are on a long flight and for some reason you can't charge, watching HDR content will eat through the battery quickly.

Some HDR content is also badly produced and HDR just looks like crap. In that case you might want to turn HDR off too. Although there is a chance it will still look like crap without HDR. I had that with some tv show, I think it was one season of Ted Lasso where HDR looked "wonky" and I ended up turning it off.