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Of course it is easier on the iphone since you don't have to install it. but i'm saying safari and web access is nothing new [to me].
I modified your quote above. The part I added for you is in the [ ]'s.

It's obvious that web access isn't new to you. Honestly, it's not new to me either. Or the people on any of the existing smartphone forums...

The point you're missing is that it *is* very, very new to the majority of people out there.
 
Wrong. I am just responding to that line in your argument in particular. You want to compare a different phone feature for feature with the iPhone? I understand the iPhone is a full package, but there are other full packages available. In a full feature comparison, I think you will find the iPhone comes up short in ALOT of areas.

It will shine in a few however. But in a pure feature list, I bet many phones would outclass it.

The feature list of a phone is worthless if people can't actually use those features. That is the problem with most cell phones. They have horrible UIs and are often times locked to hardwired keyboards that become a massive albatross of doom.

You don't get it. It is about being able to use the features a phone offers, not just talk about them on an internet forum. That is where the difference lies. Please tell me the phones you feel have a superior UI and accessibility compared to the iPhone. I am not somehow married to an iPhone or in love with it. I want the best device to do what I want it to do. If someone else has a UI that is easier to use and allows me access to all of its features without guessing or reading the manual, please tell me what it is. I would be more than happy to take a look.

Cell phone feature lists do NOTHING for me, because I have used too many phones in my life to know that most of them are not actually implemented in a way that makes them functional or usuable for a normal person.
 
The feature list of a phone is worthless if people can't actually use those features. That is the problem with most cell phones. They have horrible UIs and are often times locked to hardwired keyboards that become a massive albatross of doom.

You don't get it. It is about being able to use the features a phone offers, not just talk about them on an internet forum. That is where the difference lies. Please tell me the phones you feel have a superior UI and accessibility compared to the iPhone. I am not somehow married to an iPhone or in love with it. I want the best device to do what I want it to do. If someone else has a UI that is easier to use and allows me access to all of its features without guessing or reading the manual, please tell me what it is. I would be more than happy to take a look.

Cell phone feature lists do NOTHING for me, because I have used too many phones in my life to know that most of them are not actually implemented in a way that makes them functional or usuable for a normal person.

Well, I don't know what kind of phones you are using that don't "allow" you to use the features it has. Every advertised feature on my phone works, not to mention the unadvertised ones that 3rd party software added. I mean, its a phone. Explain to me what you mean by "Horrible" UI, perhaps a picture of what you mean, I can't wrap my mind around it. Show me some home screens / etc that simply are unintelligible, that one would look at with NO idea what to press, or how to get to anything from there.

I don't really know what your getting at. Any decent windows mobile 5/6 phone takes no more than 3-4 button presses to get where you want to be. Note, this is because it has more than 12 items available. I would hope someone could open opera mini on my phone without reading a book, but I would imagine if they could not, then they would not do much better getting to safari on a locked iPhone. On my phone it takes 2 presses of the start button and 1 press of the number 3.

These "Horrible" UI statements you make are really somewhat unfounded. Yes, the iPhone is sleeker, but VERY limited in functionality perhaps IN PART to facilitate that. If all my icons were on the start screen on my phone, then you could likely get going with very little training. Its a bit more advanced than that, and I see no way to avoid it other than "Dumbing" it down, and just limiting the users choices.

There is a "Required" level of complexity to offer a fair number of options, programs, and configurability, and the iPhone seems to avoid some of this by simply limiting it.


Yes, yes, yes, its fairly intuitive. Yes, it has a touchscreen instead of "Hardwired input".

Basically, *I* could not imagine someone that is atleast savy enough to sync a smartphone with a pc is also not savy enough to operate the basic functions of it, IE email, sms, and a browser.

I really don't know how to argue it other than that, I am simply saying, its a limited device, but I guess mainly to ME. JQ Public may have a different feeling, and it may be everything he / she ever dreamed of.

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I guess its like anything apple - We "Smarter" ones already have all the "Innovation" that apple ever introduces, usually well before apple introduces it - Apple tv, iPhone, etc. We usually are way advanced as far as those things go. However, we have spent many hours tweaking to get to that point, and have done some hacking here or there to make things just right. It certainly is rarely an open box and go type of thing.

Whereas apple, although sometimes through a dumbing down / limiting of options, makes these innovations accessable to the "Seething masses", albeit with a shiny exterior and lofty price tag.

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Yeah I got that. Bill told me he had a phone that could do that. Read my post, I acknowledged it was a piece of software running on a phone. I asked you specifically about Bill's phone sitting on HIS desk.

The fact that it runs in java on all these phones with horrible UIs does not make your case. That is in fact the point and the reason why it works.

It is not about the capability it is about the usability.

Yeah you can put opera mini browser on all those phones? Would most people want to? No. I am very technically capable, I am sure it would not be an issue, but I am also not a big fan of wasting my time, nor of poorly implemented phone interfaces. I could give my phone to pretty much any marginally capable adult, and without and guidance, instruction or manuals, ask them to bring up a web page and they could do it right away.

Can Bill make the same claim about his phone? If he just handed someone his phone who was not familiar with it, and had them take the phone from an off state to an on state, could they and would they be able to take your phone to a full-screen web browser page in a matter of a few pushes?

It is possible that a phone with a usable interface has snuck by the public, but not very likely.

I could care less about which phone he has.. because funny thing is.. any smartphone can run it =)

yeah you press the start menu, it starts the app folder and wala! opera mini, courtesy of WM6. My windows phone is quite useable, since.. people know windows and it runs pretty much like a streamlined version of windows. Also can't say its horrible. On my screen i have some cool lil nifty icons.

Small lil thumbnail pictures for speed dial, touch it and it calls the person on the picture. A little line that says how many emails and texts i have, a small line saying any calendar apointments, a little search bar that allows me to search the web, i added my own weather bar which i dont expect most people to do.
The light on my phone changes colors when i have missed calls and texts, a little notification pops up and says "notification" and when i press it, it gives me a tiny summary of email title or first sentence of a text.

(btw everything is touch screen on my phone)

This is all straight out of the box... I also figure if you buy an iphone you aren't a dumbass haha.

Here's a better question. If someone didn't know apple, saw an iphone would they know safari was the internet browser?
 
I modified your quote above. The part I added for you is in the [ ]'s.

It's obvious that web access isn't new to you. Honestly, it's not new to me either. Or the people on any of the existing smartphone forums...

The point you're missing is that it *is* very, very new to the majority of people out there.

that's a really odd edit.
if its not new to me, if its not new to you, its not new PERIOD.

why would you add it "to me". That's just odd.
 
<~snip~>

Whereas apple, although sometimes through a dumbing down / limiting of options, makes these innovations accessable to the "Seething masses", albeit with a shiny exterior and lofty price tag.

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Why not just say "teeming masses" or "festering masses?" Sheesh!

You remind me of my old buddy way back when, who had his old Buick Skylark's engine all apart in his backyard. I thought he was crazy, and would never really have it all back together again, as I merrily drove around in my little VW. Well, my friend, being one of the "Smarter Ones" had it up and running by the next day, to my amazement. Of course, I did manage to be driving around on the day he was up to his **s in grease, fitting parts together, but we were both happy. I got where I needed to go, and he entertained himself with his smartness, something only other "Smart Ones" could really appreciate. I never really did get it in the end. I just accepted it, and since that time have never regretted my membership in the church of "seething masses." :)

BTW, on my MotoV360 dumb phone, I can't type letters from the main screen to change my voicemail password (per the help menu.) It says to type #PWD# and hit "send" to reset password. All I can try is #793#, hit "send" but it doesn't work.... very, very intuitive. I just gave up.

Seriously, seriously thinking about an 8 gig iPhone, since I don't have an iPod anyway. And most of my working day, and at home I have wifi access.
 
that's a really odd edit.
if its not new to me, if its not new to you, its not new PERIOD.

why would you add it "to me". That's just odd.
Do you really think that you and I (and other smartphone power users, like BillHarrison) represent the entire mobile phone market?

Newsflash -- we don't.

The average consumer hasn't used a phone that's given then a browsing experience that's pretty close to what it's like on their computer.

To them, this stuff is new -- regardless of the fact that a small minority (like you, I, and others) have been doing it for years.
 
@clayfu and BillHarrison

I don't think you get the point, this was the same with the Creative MP3 players back in the day, they all had the same features (or more) than the more expensive iPod, but the iPod sold more.

In fact probably with the exception of the video stuff (Youtube, Music Videos and Movies) and that the iPhone has a superior camera my lowly Nokia 6230i has most of the features of the iPhone, but that really isn't the point. The issue is that they are difficult to use effectively, so I will certainly be considering shelling out the £300-£400 for an iPhone once they hit the UK.

The reason that Apple makes so much money is that their products are easy enough to use to enable people to use all the features that they have.
 
The reason that Apple makes so much money is that their products are easy enough to use to enable people to use all the features that they have.

This is true. Until she used iPhoto, iMovie, and iDVD, my wife never would have considered creating DVDs on her own. After we got her a Mac, she was doing it all by herself with no hand-holding and giving family DVDs as gifts.

Of course, there were plenty of apps she could have found to do it in Windows, but she never did. The Mac apps and interface offered her a better experience and a more user-friendly solution.

The iPhone offers the same thing for a great many people.
 
Just ignore them, A lot of people on Digg were getting all pissy about the iPhone too, really it's their opinion. I'm not saying that they should have their opinion, but just try telling them anything else.
 
I got where I needed to go, and he entertained himself with his smartness, something only other "Smart Ones" could really appreciate. I never really did get it in the end. I just accepted it, and since that time have never regretted my membership in the church of "seething masses." :)

But see, he did far more than "entertain himself with his smartness". He saved some money, and no doubt learned alot in the process. Likely, broken down in an emergency situation, with no help around, he is now more likely to be be able to patch the problem and limp the car home / to a service station. So there is alot more to it than simply "Entertaining ones self". You don't have to get it. Some of us love to expand our minds, from replacing a head gasket in an old buick, to building our own PC / MAC, to hacking together a sweet Home Theater PC system that makes the Apple TV look like an antique.

And some of us just feed off whats out there, whip out the AM EX and smile happily, getting 90% of the functionality that the harder working guy gets.... But NEVER all of it.....
 
Everyone at the moment is in a bit of a tizzy to defend the iPhone as the next best thing since sliced bread. Trust me, just because a few of us are pointing out that its not really, does not mean we are "Hating" on the iPhone, or that we "Hate" Apple. I simply demand more for my money. Apple honestly RARELY provides this. Hence why most of the time I DIY. And no, I am not holding apple to the coals here, noone else provides it either.

There are some GLARING exceptions in the iPhone, that are UNACCEPTABLE. For example: AN IPOD / PHONE without CUSTOM MUSIC RINGTONES?

Come on! That is simply wrong. Wrong to the point, that the device is almost a sin.

Lacking 3g, def not good, lacking a Java environment, not good either. It excels in a few areas, but is shockingly deficient in a few others. Leave it to us NON koolaid drinkers to hold that against Apple, and insist on changes.

The hardware is impressive. I am drooling over the specs. 600mhz processor, running a version of OS X, this machine has tremendous possibilities. And thats why I HATE to see it limited like it is. So don't hate people like me for calling it out, we are the ones that push for changes, software updates, etc.

Not the: "Its perfect, amazing, and if Apple did not put it in, I really don't need it" people.
 
Its sad that most of the Apple bashers have perhaps never even touched an Apple product. I should know, because i was one of them. Its kinda like that stupid Burger king Ad where everyone is kicking tree's and all of a sudden this red-haired pony tailed moron decides to wisen up!

I've literally used 80% of the high tech devices that have been available on the market since the last 8-9 years i.e Nokia 7650 (first true smartphone), P800, P900, P910i, O2 XDA II, I-mate PDA2K, i-mate Jasjar, a multitude of Windows smartphones, Nokia N95 (my second phone) and now finally i have switched to the iPhone.

Windows Mobile is much more functional and there is no doubt about that but most of the time its not just the functionality but rather how well it does it. It was a friggin pain in the arse browsing on Windows Mobile devices because it was formatted for a mobile screen and there used to be a lot of panning which made it absolutely awful. There is a lot of 3rd part support for WM devices, but the whole process of installing, reinstalling, cleaning up, registry hacking is just getting too old and tired. Things should just work out of the box and thats really the way it should be. 99% of the time, my mobile use is limited to email, browsing, media. Even if there are a lot of 3rd party applications, my use for them would be 1% of my work day and if i have to scrifice that for a more ergonomic and USEABLE device such as the iPhone, i would be happy to.

There are a lot of things the iPhone doesn't do but i know for sure it will in the future, perhaps via software updates or as a completely new device. I don't mind paying for a better device because because evolution COSTS! The way my iPod handles email, browsing, media i believe is much better than ANYTHING that is available on the market today. Those who don't accept are just in denial and need to head down to their local store and try it out and i'm sure that 99% of you will NOT be disappointed. Ofcourse, there's always that 1%...Meh.

A word of advice to the haters, try it (both a Mac and an iPhone) before you decide to rip on it.

Cheers.
 
go to operamini's website, the first link on their is the d/l.

click install
it installs, it resets your phone for you and its done.

sorry its not that hard, even an idiot could do it. It doesn't ask you to place it in the directory or anything. Of course it is easier on the iphone since you don't have to install it. but i'm saying safari and web access is nothing new.

The excitement over safari and googlemaps confuses me =)

Spoken like a true geek ;)

My parents are smarter than 99% of the people I've met (graduated at the top of their class, etc), but they could not do what you described without me walking them through it step by step. It has nothing to do with intelligence... It's about comfort level with technology.
 
Do you really think that you and I (and other smartphone power users, like BillHarrison) represent the entire mobile phone market?

Newsflash -- we don't.

The average consumer hasn't used a phone that's given then a browsing experience that's pretty close to what it's like on their computer.

To them, this stuff is new -- regardless of the fact that a small minority (like you, I, and others) have been doing it for years.

Sigh.
If its not NEW to us, its not NEW in general. Even if its just a minority of people that have been using it, its still not NEW. It may be "new" in a sense to the public, but its not NEW because its not something that just popped out!

btw i love the iphone, i seriously do. My gf had to drag me away from buying one cause i just bought my new smartphone =P. BUt at the same time i realized its rather expensive for what i got at 600$
 
Its sad that most of the Apple bashers have perhaps never even touched an Apple product. I should know, because i was one of them. Its kinda like that stupid Burger king Ad where everyone is kicking tree's and all of a sudden this red-haired pony tailed moron decides to wisen up!

I've literally used 80% of the high tech devices that have been available on the market since the last 8-9 years i.e Nokia 7650 (first true smartphone), P800, P900, P910i, O2 XDA II, I-mate PDA2K, i-mate Jasjar, a multitude of Windows smartphones, Nokia N95 (my second phone) and now finally i have switched to the iPhone.

Windows Mobile is much more functional and there is no doubt about that but most of the time its not just the functionality but rather how well it does it. It was a friggin pain in the arse browsing on Windows Mobile devices because it was formatted for a mobile screen and there used to be a lot of panning which made it absolutely awful. There is a lot of 3rd part support for WM devices, but the whole process of installing, reinstalling, cleaning up, registry hacking is just getting too old and tired. Things should just work out of the box and thats really the way it should be. 99% of the time, my mobile use is limited to email, browsing, media. Even if there are a lot of 3rd party applications, my use for them would be 1% of my work day and if i have to scrifice that for a more ergonomic and USEABLE device such as the iPhone, i would be happy to.

There are a lot of things the iPhone doesn't do but i know for sure it will in the future, perhaps via software updates or as a completely new device. I don't mind paying for a better device because because evolution COSTS! The way my iPod handles email, browsing, media i believe is much better than ANYTHING that is available on the market today. Those who don't accept are just in denial and need to head down to their local store and try it out and i'm sure that 99% of you will NOT be disappointed. Ofcourse, there's always that 1%...Meh.

A word of advice to the haters, try it (both a Mac and an iPhone) before you decide to rip on it.

Cheers.

tried it already. Not disappointed in what it does. Disappointed in the price it costs for what little it does.

Honestly, if it was 300-400$ i would buy it in a heartbeat i **** you not.
 
tried it already. Not disappointed in what it does. Disappointed in the price it costs for what little it does.

Honestly, if it was 300-400$ i would buy it in a heartbeat i **** you not.

So you love the device but don't want to buy it because you think its overpriced? Why are you dissing it then? Aren't you contraindicating yourself?
 
It may be "new" in a sense to the public, but its not NEW because its not something that just popped out!
That's *exactly* the sense that I'm talking about when I say that most of the general public views it as both new and revolutionary. I'm glad you finally understand! :)
 
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