Hewlett Packard bash nMP on a web-campaign

[handsome pete]

Portable is far from irrelevant. Portability is extremely relevant. You can't get a more powerful computer the size of a nMP. People used to say "well, if you want a computer, you should be ready to dedicate a room to house it in!" It's a silly idea looking back, but people simply couldn't imagine powerful computers being small. It's still the same mentality. Huge specs does not have to equal a huge, heavy computer -- stop being afraid of change.

Mark my words, this will revolutionise the Pro industry. In 5 years, OEMs in the Pro market will have smaller and smaller professional computers to try catch up to the nMP. They're terrified.

The Mac Pro is a fine machine but you're being a bit hyperbolic there. Sure, the unit itself takes up a much smaller footprint, but you're discounting everything that now has to exist outside of the box. Remember, you still need to attach monitors, drives, I/O boxes, etc. On the portability front, the new Mac Pro really isn't much better than the previous iteration, never mind the competition.

 

[JesterJJZ]

If only HP would strike a deal with Apple to make OSX certified z820s. I'd jump on that in a heartbeat!

 

[VirtualRain]

In which way? The amount of software available for Linux and Windows is so much greater than what's available on OS/X that it makes any mentioning of OS/X exclusivity a moot point. And if we are talking about any professional use (and in this case we obviously are) then we are talking about engineers/designers who spend countless hours using their applications. Sure occasionally they use some OS features too (when they need to copy a file or something) but it is a very small part of what they use their computers for.

I and many other Mac Workstation users couldn't care less how much software there is for Linux or Windows. We have all the apps we need. And many of us use OS X because we detest Windows and have no intention of going back (or never touched it in the first place). HP clearly doesn't get this. It doesn't sound like you understand why people choose OS X over Windows either.

And as you say, any professional that's spent countless hours becoming proficient in FCP, Logic, Aperture, or any other OS X productivity app isn't going to simply abandon it and start over from scratch all because HP says it has better workstations. And even if they use an application that's available on both platforms (e.g. Adobe) they probably chose to work on a Mac for a reason, and any BS that HP spews forth from their marketing department isn't suddenly going to make them wish they were running Windows.

 

[0x2102]

Huge, huge concerns.

Agree. Form factor and noise where the reasons I gave up my Mac Pro 5.1 for a nMP. I just love how quite it is - even under 100% CPU load.

 

[keysofanxiety]

Terrified?

Terrified that people won't buy traditional workstations because 8 to 24 DIMM slots aren't useful? That PCIe slots aren't useful? That significant internal storage expansion at only the cost of the bare drives isn't useful?

HP already has a SFF Xeon workstation that's just a bit more than twice the volume of the new Mini Pro. Even at that size, it supports two internal 3.5" drives, Quadro PCIe x16 video, three additional PCIe slots, and an optical drive. Not only that - but its power switch is on the front.

"Terrified" is laughable.

You're absolutely right. Seriously, 100% right. Everything you've said with the expansion is completely correct, and people won't stop buying traditional workstations because of the nMP. This is a huge market that won't just disappear.

So if HP are so confident, and not terrified ... why on Earth did they do this campaign?

Deep down, you know the answer. They're overly defensive because they are completely bricking it. I look back to manufacturers' reactions when the iPhone, or the iPad, or the MacBook Air came out -- and they're absolutely identical.

They are terrified, and in 2 or 3 years time you'll be seeing Wintel products on the professional market that reflect this.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

If only HP would strike a deal with Apple to make OSX certified z820s. I'd jump on that in a heartbeat!

Not just you, I'd say a fair few people would do that.

The mystical xMac would arrive. Imagine buying a $1500 HP workstation, and then simply adding everything you want while having 100% OSX compatibility without hackintosh issues.

One can dream though.

 

[slughead]

Terrified?

Terrified that people won't buy traditional workstations because 8 to 24 DIMM slots aren't useful? That PCIe slots aren't useful? That significant internal storage expansion at only the cost of the bare drives isn't useful?

HP already has a SFF Xeon workstation that's just a bit more than twice the volume of the new Mini Pro. Even at that size, it supports two internal 3.5" drives, Quadro PCIe x16 video, three additional PCIe slots, and an optical drive. Not only that - but its power switch is on the front.

"Terrified" is laughable.

You forgot about having real on-site tech support where they hand deliver replacement parts to your house, plus the better processing power and ability to upgrade the video cards as they grow older.

These workstations are not going anywhere. There will always be a need for more speed, capacity, features. There are a lot of strange people on this board who act like the nMP is all things to all people, that it's the fastest computer ever, that it's got all the features all professionals want/need...

Edit: out of curiosity, I looked up RAM Prices, Currently you pay > $2400 for 128GB of 1600 Mhz RAM in the nMP. For that price you could get 192GB of 1866Mhz RAM--if you have 12 slots.



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The Mac Pro is a fine machine but you're being a bit hyperbolic there. Sure, the unit itself takes up a much smaller footprint, but you're discounting everything that now has to exist outside of the box. Remember, you still need to attach monitors, drives, I/O boxes, etc. On the portability front, the new Mac Pro really isn't much better than the previous iteration, never mind the previous versions.

This. If I take a hard drive physically outside of my case and plug it into the motherboard with a long cable, does it cease to be part of the "computer"? I don't think so, the nMP forces users to externalize many things that were previously internal, that needs to be factored in when talking about 1) the foot print 2) the price.

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So if HP are so confident, and not terrified ... why on Earth did they do this campaign?

I'm not sure how much of a "campaign" you could call this, as far as I know it's just a website. There are a significant number of actual professionals turned off by this new design. That's one of the reasons the price of 2009/10 mac pros skyrocketed on e-bay over the past few months.

I really doubt there are going to be a lot of previous PC workstation users switching to the nMP if they really required the hardware configurations offered by those type of machines. I'm not sure how many pros would submit themselves to minimal long term upgradability, externalizing everything into dubious-quality alternatives, markedly worse price/performance (on a lot of tasks), and comparatively abysmal support. These aren't bored rich FCP-tinkerers with lots of disposable income, they're real professionals here.

Edit: I just realized: What was Apple afraid of when they launched to switch to Mac campaign? Surely they were fearing the Mac was doomed!

 

[ABCDEF-Hex]

Your last paragraph says it all -

I totally agree: More than ever, people need to start with what they're looking for in a machine and what tasks they perform before judging the price/performance of a machine. For many tasks, the nMP is the best on the market. For others, the HP is vastly superior. For others still, a DIY solution or different builder is going to do the job better and cheaper.

it does no good to argue which machine "is best for all".

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Terrified?

Not only that - but its power switch is on the front.

"Terrified" is laughable.

You make some fair points - but then
you spoil it all at the end. Worrying about the power switch is "laughable".

 

[handsome pete]

So if HP are so confident, and not terrified ... why on Earth did they do this campaign?

You obviously don't know much about marketing/advertising.

I and many other Mac Workstation users couldn't care less how much software there is for Linux or Windows. We have all the apps we need. And many of us use OS X because we detest Windows and have no intention of going back (or never touched it in the first place). HP clearly doesn't get this. It doesn't sound like you understand why people choose OS X over Windows either.

And as you say, any professional that's spent countless hours becoming proficient in FCP, Logic, Aperture, or any other OS X productivity app isn't going to simply abandon it and start over from scratch all because HP says it has better workstations. And even if they use an application that's available on both platforms (e.g. Adobe) they probably chose to work on a Mac for a reason, and any BS that HP spews forth from their marketing department isn't suddenly going to make them wish they were running Windows.

That's sort of true, but I think you overestimate the loyalty people have to their OS and applications. Just go ask any of the Final Cut people that went elsewhere. Lucky for them, they had alternatives that also ran on OSX. But I don't doubt that they would have considered Windows if necessary. And these days there really aren't many applications that are OSX only, so the decision to move to Windows is easier than ever. So if someone like HP can offer me hardware that will significantly improve my productivity, then my loyalty to OSX becomes questioned. Besides, once you're buried in these applications nowadays, the operating system visibility is minimal. I took a job last year at a studio that had all HP and Boxx machines. It was jarring at first having not sat down at a Wndows machine in years, but it wasn't long before it became unnoticeable.

 

[keysofanxiety]

You obviously don't know much about marketing/advertising.

Evidently not, because in my eyes, HP's advert serves to do nothing but patronise the end user and spread FUD.

 

[AidenShaw]

You make some fair points - but then you spoil it all at the end. Worrying about the power switch is "laughable".

jk

 

[slughead]

With the same 12 Core CPU E5, same amount of registred RAM, same SSD size and two Fire Pro W7000 (9000 are unavailable), the Z820 cost 3000$ more than the equivalent nMP.

Is it just me or are they charging an arm and a leg for... everything ? $450 for a 160GB SSD? What?

 

[AidenShaw]

Is it just me or are they charging an arm and a leg for... everything ? $450 for a 160GB SSD? What?

With HP, you can buy the SSDs and graphics cards and RAM at Newegg. With Apples, not so much.

Every vendor marks up the add-ons. Only one vendor forces you to buy the add-ons from them.

And you're assuming that HP sells these at list price. Our company discount is roughly 47% off the list price.

Two weeks ago I got four ProLiants with 20 cores (dual E5-2670v2), four 10GbE ports, 64 GiB 1866 ECC RAM, three SAS disks with a RAID controller with 2 GiB writeback cache, dual 750w Platinum-Plus power supplies for just under $7K each.

Comparing Apple prices to HP list prices is simply silly.

 

[slughead]

Comparing Apple prices to HP list prices is simply silly.

What? No FirePro? No proprietary PCIe hard drive? Forget that it has 20 cores, it's clearly inferior!! How will it Final Cut?

 

[AidenShaw]

What? No FirePro? No proprietary PCIe hard drive? Forget that it has 20 cores, it's clearly inferior!! How will it Final Cut?

...and they were delivered eight days after the purchase order was cut....

 

[Freida]

although I love the nMP and would love to get it, I have to agree with them. Dual cpu is a winner for rendering and as of now, Apple can't beat that.

i really hope they will come up with a solution that will allow for dual cpu in the next revision.

Rendering just cuts time in half if you have 24cores rather than 12. Apple must know this.

 

[snarfquest]

I tried to boot OSX on my new HP and it failed. So I returned the HP.

Sorry HP! Running a crap OS a good computer does not make.

Can have the best hardware in the world, but hardware is only 25% of the solution..

 

[AidenShaw]

​

I tried to boot OSX on my new HP and it failed. So I returned the HP.

Sorry HP! Running a crap OS a good computer does not make.

Can have the best hardware in the world, but hardware is only 25% of the solution..

Somehow I doubt that this is true....

First, one would have to be rather clueless to buy a Z8 without checking if it was listed on the Hackintosh lists....

Second, as mentioned in the HP web page

“The thing we were terrified about when switching over to PC’s, was learning Windows, but it wasn’t as bad as we thought, especially because we spend the majority of our time in Adobe® Premier Pro and the interface is exactly the same.”​

You fail the "cred test".

 

[snarfquest]

​

Somehow I doubt that this is true....

First, one would have to be rather clueless to buy a Z8 without checking if it was listed on the Hackintosh lists....

Second, as mentioned in the HP web page

“The thing we were terrified about when switching over to PC’s, was learning Windows, but it wasn’t as bad as we thought, especially because we spend the majority of our time in Adobe® Premier Pro and the interface is exactly the same.”​

You fail the "cred test".

You fail at humor.

 

[AidenShaw]

You fail at humor.

Or, you fail at comedy....

 

[Redneck1089]

@slughead: Sometimes I feel you're the only one making sense on this forum. At very least you're pretty much the only one worth reading comments from.

 

[antonis]

The argument "the OS is inferior, but don't worry, you won't see it much" is not very reassuring for many people. I get that many workstations are only running a pro app fullscreen 24/7 but that's not always the case. I know this would be a moot point for my area of work.

So, all I'm saying is that OS comparison cannot get so easily out of the picture, no matter how convenient this is for HP.

In a more general note, these PC tower comparisons against the nMP's small factor keeps reminding me the reactions I was reading when the first MBA was launched. I've said it before, I'll say it again here, maybe nMP is Apple's failed POV about workstations. But, on the other hand, maybe after a few years everyone will offer a workstation like that.

 

[handsome pete]

The argument "the OS is inferior, but don't worry, you won't see it much" is not very reassuring for many people. I get that many workstations are only running a pro app fullscreen 24/7 but that's not always the case. I know this would be a moot point for my area of work.

So, all I'm saying is that OS comparison cannot get so easily out of the picture, no matter how convenient this is for HP.

In a more general note, these PC tower comparisons against the nMP's small factor keeps reminding me the reactions I was reading when the first MBA was launched. I've said it before, I'll say it again here, maybe nMP is Apple's failed POV about workstations. But, on the other hand, maybe after a few years everyone will offer a workstation like that.

Yeah, I get that the OS plays more of a factor for different users. I just think the negativity is a little exaggerated around these parts.

As for your comparison to the introduction of the MBA, I'm not sure it's that much of a parallel. I remember most of the negativity around the MBA initially was about price, considering the specs. But there was an obvious reason why those specs were chosen, and that was to get down the weight and dimensions significantly. They made a portable machine much lighter and thinner, making it more portable. So what is the obvious advantage of the new form factor of the nMP? They made a not very portable workstation somewhat portable?

 

[antonis]

Yeah, I get that the OS plays more of a factor for different users. I just think the negativity is a little exaggerated around these parts.

As for your comparison to the introduction of the MBA, I'm not sure it's that much of a parallel. I remember most of the negativity around the MBA initially was about price, considering the specs. But there was an obvious reason why those specs were chosen, and that was to get down the weight and dimensions significantly. They made a portable machine much lighter and thinner, making it more portable. So what is the obvious advantage of the new form factor of the nMP? They made a not very portable workstation somewhat portable?

You're right, I'm not sure if that can be paralleled either - they might or not. When MBA was launched many people argued about why having such an underpowered laptop with minimal expansion capabilities (e.g. ports) compared to any other laptop out there.

nMP is doing things differently, as well. There are advantages that might seem minimal now (Apple tends to release products that are referred to future needs, sometimes exaggerating beyond the acceptable limits) like low power consumption. For me that would be an important factor for a machine that most probably will run 24/7.

After all, that's the only official & supported solution for anyone who doesn't want to leave the OS X ecosystem. So I guess all I'm thinking is that the comparison doesn't come down to a simple: "the big upgradeable box versus the small closed cylinder". It's just more than that.

 

[AidenShaw]

There are advantages that might seem minimal now (...) like low power consumption. For me that would be an important factor for a machine that most probably will run 24/7.

The Dell Xeon workstation that I'm typing on right now is using about 36 watts total...and it's not a crippled cylinder.

Power management is an important feature for most systems - Apple isn't the only one minimizing power consumption.