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andrewstirling

macrumors 6502a
May 19, 2015
715
425
It's called a unique selling proposition (USP). Something the customer wants and only your business can provide. That's how you create a market with only one supplier, who can dictate prices to its customers. Your profit margin depends on the uniqueness of your product.

Something the customer ‘wants’….

Yeah..people have a choice. I’m quite clear that I ‘want’ a new MacBook. I’m also quite clear that, at this point, I won’t be buying one. If I do decide I want to buy one in a year or two, I would be grateful if they continued to offer a range of options. I’ll then have a choice about which one I ‘want’ to buy.

Personally…given how much other items have increased in price over recent years, I consider the 16mb MacBook Pros price to be pretty reasonable. If it was significantly cheaper I might buy one but I’ll be keeping my money in my pocket this year. This is because I have made a judgement that the cost of me trading in and upgrading is too great for the improvements the M3 MacBook Pros will bring. I don’t feel betrayed or abused by Apple in any way though.
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,267
Berlin, Berlin
Personally…given how much other items have increased in price over recent years, I consider the 16" MacBook Pros price to be pretty reasonable.
But it's not reasonably priced. It's a premium product at twice or trice the price of a similar sized commodity laptop. The question is, does it have unique properties which make you want to choose the more expensive option regardless of its price.
 

andrewstirling

macrumors 6502a
May 19, 2015
715
425
Well perception of value varies from person to person. My point is that nobody is forced to buy a MacBook of any configuration. If you don’t wanna pay the price you could just ‘not’.

It’s like people complaining that Apple released an Ultra Watch 2 this year citing that the Ultra is a premium product and shouldn’t have a yearly release schedule. Just don’t buy it if you don’t think it’s a significant upgrade?!’
 

6916494

Cancelled
Jun 16, 2022
105
157
I live in the Euro-zone, so I converted the prices to USD and rounded slighlty.

I always keep my MBPs for 24 months:

USD 8,100 Purchase November 2019, fully maxed out i9 16" (included VAT)
USD 3,800 Sale at beginning of December 2021 (no VAT)
USD 4,300 Actual costs (omitting inflation)
USD 5.89 Costs per day

USD 7,800 Purchase November 2021, fully maxed out M1 16" (included VAT)
USD 4,700 Sale at beginning of December 2023 (no VAT) – this deal already exists
USD 3,100 Actual costs (omitting inflation)
USD 4.25 Costs per day

USD 9,100 Purchase December 2023, fully maxed out M3 16" (includes VAT)
USD 2,000 That is what Apple Trade-In would have paid for my M1 now
USD 7,100 Actual costs (omitting inflation)
USD 9.72 Costs per day

I use my laptop every day for ten hours or more (I work mostly at home despite having an office at my employer's location). I do not think that spending five to ten dollars a day is too expensive considering the quality of the whole system. And I'm talking about maxed out machine with 8TB SSDs. Imagine how low the daily costs are when going with a non-maxed out model.

A few days ago I wrote in a post:

What satisfaction do people get from whining and whining about expensive quality products? Since Sony cameras are expensive too, Hermès bags are expensive too, Mercedes cars are expensive too, etc.

I'm really curious what people get from these postings? Apple won't change their prices. They seem to know what they're doing. They do not consult this forum. So what for do you that? Do you feel better after posting complaints here? I wanna be specific: I do not mean these questions in a derogatory way, I'm just really very curious from a psychological standpoint of view.
 
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Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
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I always keep my MBPs for 24 months
This seems to be an extremely short lifespan.
I do not think that spending five to ten dollars a day is too expensive considering the quality of the whole system.
Yes, too expensive.
And I'm talking about maxed out machine with 8TB SSDs. Imagine how low the daily costs are when going with a non-maxed out model.
Less than < $1/day
 

Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,993
1,724
But it's not reasonably priced. It's a premium product at twice or trice the price of a similar sized commodity laptop. The question is, does it have unique properties which make you want to choose the more expensive option regardless of its price.
You forgot to add the following caveat which must be applied to all such blanket comments, which is "...in my opinion".

Other people obviously disagree :) because Apple has sold quite a lot of these machines (although a decreasing amount in the current economy)

Apple fairly successfully combines "premium build quality", "good to very good performance", and a brand identity that attempts to convey a message of "cool technology" and aspirations of luxury and success (aka "The Starbucks smugness look-at-my-shiny-new-computer-that-cost-a-bomb" effect).

You can certainly pay less for a computer with the same or better performance if that is your only criterion, but Apple has never targeted the market than only cares about raw performance. They are going for a combination of technical excellence and brand-image to command a premium price. Apple is simply not interested in competing against a "performance per dollar" metric with other manufacturers (because they would not score highly)

I have used quite a few laptops in my life, about half provided by work and half bought by me. It's been a mixed bag, but overall build quality and "user experience" has been best on the Macs by quite a noticeable margin.

I've had computers from Apple, Dell, Lenovo/IBM, Asus, Microsoft, HP, and German OEM "Vobis". I've had some kind of problem at some stage with pretty much all of them, including Apple, but on balance I have preferred using the Apple Macs.

It's not just the performance, which for pretty much all of the Intel Macs was very similar to other machines with the same hardware, but the overall "user experience". This includes properties such as:

  • physical rigidity and strength (metal cases just flex less than a lot of the plastic ones),
  • (Mostly) good quality keyboards, excellent trackpads, and high quality display panels
  • Low "maintenance overhead" for system updates, incompatible software resolution etc,
  • Reliability and up-time (without issues in OS or hardware) seems to be better than many Windows equivalents (in my experience)
  • hardware compatibility with the OS - Apple controls the hardware and software so problems are rare - which I have found to be a big time waster with Windows / Linux computers
  • Generally better battery life (by a large margin with Apple Silicon)
  • Generally better designed operating system than Windows, which is more intuitive "for many people".
  • Solid Unix OS foundation that has value for some IT tasks
  • Lower learning curve (at least for non-technical people)
  • Subjectively, nicer appearance, design, and "feel" than many other laptops.
Whether these qualities make the price reasonable or not depends entirely on the individual, and their own criteria.

For me, I value and look for the following in a computer:

1) Reliability and predictability - does it turn on and do what I need every time, for years on end, without failure
2) Does the computer OS and hardware "get out of the way" and let me focus on the task, rather than the tools? Do I have spend significant time "maintaining it" with software updates, or resolving problems?
3) Is the performance and hardware specification adequate for my tasks? e.g. CPU/GPU, battery life, screen quality
4) Are the human interface points (keyboard, touchpad, screen) reliable, and pleasing to use for hours at a time
5) Does the build quality inspire confidence and is it able to withstand some abuse for mobile workers (e.g. being dropped, banged into desks, shoved into backpacks or cases etc.)
6) Does the machine have the necessary I/O for my peripherals and do these work without fault?
7) Does the machine have good ergonomics, easy portability, and look and feel nice to use?
8) Is it going to last me (or the next owner) for several years of hard usage (at least 5-10 years)

There may well be Windows PCs that meet all of the above, but they must be pretty few and far between, because I rarely see anything that catches my attention in computer stores.

Bottom line, if I only had the money to buy an offering from one of the mainstream Windows laptop manufacturers, then I would be able to do pretty much everything that I do on my Macs, but given the choice, I prefer the Mac "experience". I wish they were cheaper, and I nearly always look at the prices with some dismay after I've chosen a suitable specification.

At the risk of using a very tired and long-running car analogy, the Mac is probably a "Mercedes-Benz of computers" - not the fastest, not the best "bang-for-buck" in terms of features, but comfortable to drive, reliable, good looking, and luxurious to be in.
 

henkie

macrumors regular
Aug 30, 2023
162
281
You forgot to add the following caveat which must be applied to all such blanket comments, which is "...in my opinion".

Other people obviously disagree :) because Apple has sold quite a lot of these machines (although a decreasing amount in the current economy)

Apple fairly successfully combines "premium build quality", "good to very good performance", and a brand identity that attempts to convey a message of "cool technology" and aspirations of luxury and success (aka "The Starbucks smugness look-at-my-shiny-new-computer-that-cost-a-bomb" effect).

You can certainly pay less for a computer with the same or better performance if that is your only criterion, but Apple has never targeted the market than only cares about raw performance. They are going for a combination of technical excellence and brand-image to command a premium price. Apple is simply not interested in competing against a "performance per dollar" metric with other manufacturers (because they would not score highly)

I have used quite a few laptops in my life, about half provided by work and half bought by me. It's been a mixed bag, but overall build quality and "user experience" has been best on the Macs by quite a noticeable margin.

I've had computers from Apple, Dell, Lenovo/IBM, Asus, Microsoft, HP, and German OEM "Vobis". I've had some kind of problem at some stage with pretty much all of them, including Apple, but on balance I have preferred using the Apple Macs.

It's not just the performance, which for pretty much all of the Intel Macs was very similar to other machines with the same hardware, but the overall "user experience". This includes properties such as:

  • physical rigidity and strength (metal cases just flex less than a lot of the plastic ones),
  • (Mostly) good quality keyboards, excellent trackpads, and high quality display panels
  • Low "maintenance overhead" for system updates, incompatible software resolution etc,
  • Reliability and up-time (without issues in OS or hardware) seems to be better than many Windows equivalents (in my experience)
  • hardware compatibility with the OS - Apple controls the hardware and software so problems are rare - which I have found to be a big time waster with Windows / Linux computers
  • Generally better battery life (by a large margin with Apple Silicon)
  • Generally better designed operating system than Windows, which is more intuitive "for many people".
  • Solid Unix OS foundation that has value for some IT tasks
  • Lower learning curve (at least for non-technical people)
  • Subjectively, nicer appearance, design, and "feel" than many other laptops.
Whether these qualities make the price reasonable or not depends entirely on the individual, and their own criteria.

For me, I value and look for the following in a computer:

1) Reliability and predictability - does it turn on and do what I need every time, for years on end, without failure
2) Does the computer OS and hardware "get out of the way" and let me focus on the task, rather than the tools? Do I have spend significant time "maintaining it" with software updates, or resolving problems?
3) Is the performance and hardware specification adequate for my tasks? e.g. CPU/GPU, battery life, screen quality
4) Are the human interface points (keyboard, touchpad, screen) reliable, and pleasing to use for hours at a time
5) Does the build quality inspire confidence and is it able to withstand some abuse for mobile workers (e.g. being dropped, banged into desks, shoved into backpacks or cases etc.)
6) Does the machine have the necessary I/O for my peripherals and do these work without fault?
7) Does the machine have good ergonomics, easy portability, and look and feel nice to use?
8) Is it going to last me (or the next owner) for several years of hard usage (at least 5-10 years)

There may well be Windows PCs that meet all of the above, but they must be pretty few and far between, because I rarely see anything that catches my attention in computer stores.

Bottom line, if I only had the money to buy an offering from one of the mainstream Windows laptop manufacturers, then I would be able to do pretty much everything that I do on my Macs, but given the choice, I prefer the Mac "experience". I wish they were cheaper, and I nearly always look at the prices with some dismay after I've chosen a suitable specification.

At the risk of using a very tired and long-running car analogy, the Mac is probably a "Mercedes-Benz of computers" - not the fastest, not the best "bang-for-buck" in terms of features, but comfortable to drive, reliable, good looking, and luxurious to be in.
Well said. But still, 8GB is like giving a Mercedes Benz a 70 horse power engine: adequate and brings you to work, but would have been way more enjoyable for much more users with a little bit of extra push (ie 140 hp or 16GB) (and was standard just 3 weeks ago) from Apple/Mercedes. Plus, upgrading to 16GB costs Apple next to nothing, while another engine will costs a lot more ;)
 
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Corefile

macrumors 6502a
Sep 24, 2022
751
1,066
You're right. 8GB was an impressive amount of memory for a 13" laptop... in 2009.

Why stop there? Apple's top Power Mac could take an insane 1GB of RAM in 1999. By that standard, perhaps Apple should rename the current Mac mini the Mac Ultra Power Pro.

Did he just say "Motorola and Intel" instead of "Motorola and IBM"? Maybe this was a six year faux-pas?
 

Trusteft

macrumors 6502a
Nov 5, 2014
873
971
I was going through some of my files and found this from 2008. An order I placed for a PC, not a Mac yes, back in 2008.

Just saying.

EDIT: My point being, 8GB of RAM for a new computer in 2023-2024 is a joke.

2008 pcspecialist.png
 

gpat

macrumors 68000
Mar 1, 2011
1,931
5,341
Italy
You really splurged on RAM back then.
I remember the first Core i7 coming out the same year, and people were conflicted whether to go for 3GB or 6GB RAM.
Nice rig, it really takes me back.
 
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Trusteft

macrumors 6502a
Nov 5, 2014
873
971
You really splurged on RAM back then.
I remember the first Core i7 coming out the same year, and people were conflicted whether to go for 3GB or 6GB RAM.
Nice rig, it really takes me back.
Thank you. It was a good system, but IIRC I only kept it for 2 years.
 

Mr Screech

macrumors 6502
Mar 2, 2018
260
264
If it was 16gb you'd have a different crowd whining why the base model is so 'expensive' and why there isn't a 8gb model.

That being said, 8gb is fine for most people who only type messages and browse on their machines.
 
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Trusteft

macrumors 6502a
Nov 5, 2014
873
971
If it was 16gb you'd have a different crowd whining why the base model is so 'expensive' and why there isn't a 8gb model.

That being said, 8gb is fine for most people who only type messages and browse on their machines.
The price shouldn't go up with a 16GB base configuration. That's the whole point.
Or at the very least if the upgrade was either user possible or not the price it is.
I thought my point was pretty clear. I guess it wasn't.
 
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gpat

macrumors 68000
Mar 1, 2011
1,931
5,341
Italy
One could argue that today we swap to SSDs and that's much different from swapping to HDDs, again I remember the first SSDs coming out that same year and they truly felt like alien technology.

But yes, 8GB today from Apple is still a douchebag move.
It's fully tolerable on the M1 Air, but more than half of their lineup starts from that figure, and it's soldered.
I really don't know why should somebody spend more than $999 for the M1 Air, if a M3/8GB is likely going to be discarded at the same time.

Sorry for digressing, I have a lot of nostalgia for the late 2000s, my passion for IT was at its peak back then.
 

Trusteft

macrumors 6502a
Nov 5, 2014
873
971
One could argue that today we swap to SSDs and that's much different from swapping to HDDs, again I remember the first SSDs coming out that same year and they truly felt like alien technology.

But yes, 8GB today from Apple is still a douchebag move.
It's fully tolerable on the M1 Air, but more than half of their lineup starts from that figure, and it's soldered.
I really don't know why should somebody spend more than $999 for the M1 Air, if a M3/8GB is likely going to be discarded at the same time.

Sorry for digressing, I have a lot of nostalgia for the late 2000s, my passion for IT was at its peak back then.
You did nothing wrong. I feel the same way, though perhaps not for 2008.
I agree with what you say.
 

MRMSFC

macrumors 6502
Jul 6, 2023
371
381
The base Air would probably be fine with 8 gigs. My grandma uses my old 4 gig MacBook Air for doing taxes and email and it does fine.

On machines above that it’s just too low, and it’s past time Apple lowers their prices for memory upgrades.

That said, I don’t lose sleep over it.
 

Trusteft

macrumors 6502a
Nov 5, 2014
873
971
That’s the opposite of a good system. I bought a 27" iMac in 2009. I upgraded it myself to 4×2GB and are watching season 6 of The Crown on it right now. 👑
...So the only reason one no longer has a system is because the system is not good? You might want to check your logic there. Same about the angry reaction to my post.
 
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JPack

macrumors G5
Mar 27, 2017
13,535
26,158
You really splurged on RAM back then.
I remember the first Core i7 coming out the same year, and people were conflicted whether to go for 3GB or 6GB RAM.
Nice rig, it really takes me back.

Not really. 8GB was pretty common in 2008. It was $80 for a 4GB kit. The irony is it's still cheaper per GB back then than it is today with Apple.

You can't get a 3GB stick. The i7 ran triple-channel, so the realistic choice was dual-channel 8GB (best value), or triple-channel 12GB (kinda expensive).
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
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...So the only reason one no longer has a system is because the system is not good?
No, the only reason people say everyone should upgrade to 16 GB is for longevity. Even though 8 GB is perfectly fine for a lot of use cases today, they predict the app hunger for more memory will only increase with time and because the RAM is soldered you can’t upgrade later on.

If you used your system only from 2008 till 2010, the longevity argument goes right out the window. And the Macs are too expensive argument flies right behind it. How good is a computer you don’t keep? Let alone one with Windows Vista™ Home Premium! 🤪

 

WC7

macrumors 6502
Dec 13, 2018
425
317
Well, I did purchase the base M3 iMac ... with the 8 GB memory ... my thinking for staying with the 8 GB was that it is all on the die and accessible by that 100 GB/sec shared CPU/GPU memory 'highway'. So, I just assumed it is a more up to date memory optimization and therefore I didn't need to buy the 16 GB. I've been checking Activity Monitor and it seems no matter what combination of 'lite' applications I am running (Music, Photos, Safari, Pages, Numbers, News, Messages, Mail, etc etc.) it seems Activity Monitor shows 7 out of 8 GB being used with some Cached and Swapped. Of course I am just a really 'lite' user and not a gamer or creative worker, not a pro. The M3 iMac 8/8/8/256 is all I need.
 
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Trusteft

macrumors 6502a
Nov 5, 2014
873
971
No, the only reason people say everyone should upgrade to 16 GB is for longevity. Even though 8 GB is perfectly fine for a lot of use cases today, they predict the app hunger for more memory will only increase with time and because the RAM is soldered you can’t upgrade later on.

If you used your system only from 2008 till 2010, the longevity argument goes right out the window. And the Macs are too expensive argument flies right behind it. How good is a computer you don’t keep? Let alone one with Windows Vista™ Home Premium! 🤪

Delusional thinking.
Please stop replying to me.
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
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Berlin, Berlin
I've been checking Activity Monitor and it seems no matter what combination of 'lite' applications I am running (Music, Photos, Safari, Pages, Numbers, News, Messages, Mail, etc etc.) it seems Activity Monitor shows 7 out of 8 GB being used with some Cached and Swapped.
That's my experience too. macOS will use some Swap memory no matter what I do, but it's also not a performance issue and isn't effecting the lifetime of the SSD. Once you stop checking Activity Monitor all the time, 8 GB is absolutely fine and no different then 24 GB for light and moderate use.
 
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