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dmccloud

macrumors 68030
Sep 7, 2009
2,990
1,727
Anchorage, AK
Except that, like most reviewers, he’s not a logistics expert. His wondering why Apple ships staggered releases of chips that are all manufactured on the same process by the same enterprise is… naive. No foundry on earth could ramp production of Apple’s needs for simultaneous release of all its lines.

His reasoning is doubly naive given that M3 was the first line of SoCs built on a 3nm process, so yields were even more constrained than is the norm for new generations of silicon. Last summer, 3nm yields for TSMC were in the 50-60% range, meaning that almost half of the SoCs on any given wafer were bad. TSMC is targeting an 80% yield rate by the end of 2024, and with N3E coming as well production might be inching closer to that mythical goal Marques mentioned.
 
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za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
this is a good one. Despite of what some folks might think about maxTech
8GB vs. 16GB RAM on M3-MB air


The problem with this video is that it tells us the wrong thing. It does demonstrate nicely how macOS will use greater resources when they are available, and this isn't just because it's using swap to dump in and out of the SSD. If it were, the single module 256Gb in the 8/256 M2 would significantly reduce system performance set against a 16/512 model - or even a 8/256 M1 model - due to the volume of swap that would be happening. The video also shows that even when ramping up demand on 8Gb, within fairly normal constraints the 8Gb system does not show any marked performance constraints or memory pressure. Indeed, memory pressure appears to decline after initial loading of his test apps/files - exactly what you'd expect.

His conclusion that the 8Gb is good for single app use at a time, and the 16 for those who like to multitask is blatantly obvious and really doesn't need to be said at all. The actual question is exactly where in between those two use cases is the line where it makes the $200 extra worth spending. By selecting Lightroom - an app that Adobe tells us has an 8Gb minimum requirement with 16 recommended, and then setting about working on 50 RAW files whilst also running dozens of tabs in Safari and some other stuff... well yes, 8Gb chokes just as anyone knows it would.

I's clearly not a use case you'd reasonably expect a base model to be capable of handling as efficiently - or else why would anyone need more RAM in the first place.

Lightroom's minimum is 8Gb, so reasonably if using it on the base model, you'd not sensibly expect to have a whole bunch of other stuff going on in the background anyway. As such, the video makes interesting watching, and tells us a lot, but not necessarily what the guy actually meant it to tell us. It's a bit like saying that yes, your Hyundai Sonata will manage 100mph if you really need it to, but put two elephants in the front (one driving, obviously, because it's not a Tesla) and three in the back, and oh dear, it struggles. This really isn't news.

There's a different video (
) in which there's a realistic appraisal of RAM - still critical of Apple's option to use 8Gb in the base model, but not argued around a rather fallacious choice of evidence as in the first, but in the fact that what we really don't have any control over is what RAM overhead there may be in web-based services or software in the future.

This is actually a great argument against rentware such as Lightroom, because vendors have you locked into their software and can inflate the monthly fees for access as and when they wish, often on the back of shiny-looking upgrades justifying the price hike. The answer is simple: look for software you can buy and own, and can control rather than be dictated to, and avoid being trapped into web apps for essential workflows.

There's another video (
) which takes a bit less technical, and a bit more experiential approach to the 8/16Gb debate, where the guy talks about the practical choice of memory size and how to judge what the differences are worth on an individual case. Given this guy runs his business on an M2 8Gb Air, yet was sent a 16Gb M3 by Apple to review, he's not in a bad position to comment on the comparative RAM capacities.

This latter guy's experiences pretty closely match my own, so I watched his video commemorating the M1 MBA as it dropped off Apple's official product list, and it is interesting that his take on his M1 8Gb model was exactly as mine has been - that it just does what it's given to do. Sometimes, as he says, the RAM capacity hinders performance somewhat doing a demanding task, but personally it seems a bit odd to me that we're so bothered about fractional gains that we don't see just how much computing power we get for our money these days.

Anyway, that bit was just opinion of mine, and irrelevant. The three videos offer rather different takes on what 8Gb RAM actually means in use. And for my money, the first proves that the user needs to analyze their needs before buying, the second that Apple ought not to be selling 8Gb base models if they don't want to be seen as totally cynical, and the third that for a user with moderate needs, 8Gb is functionally enough. YouTube proves everything. And nothing.
 

precision01

macrumors regular
Oct 16, 2014
103
77
But what I think is that we should have laws about the right to replace 3 things in the easiest way: Batteries, RAM and SSD. People sues apple for so many things, and these are the main anti-consumer practices they do.

In the end, I think that this practice of selling machines with insufficient RAM and SSD goes against them, in many ways.

Let's say, gaming.

How can they advertise that the game runs on basic Macbook Airs, when the game itself requires 80Gb (160Gb to install !), but the machine has only 256Gb os SSD? And App Store doesn't let you download or install to external devices.

That's crazy stupid. They will never create a proper gaming user base when the vast majority of users buys the basic specs machines.
 

Howard2k

macrumors 603
Mar 10, 2016
5,288
5,123
But what I think is that we should have laws about the right to replace 3 things in the easiest way: Batteries, RAM and SSD. People sues apple for so many things, and these are the main anti-consumer practices they do.

In the end, I think that this practice of selling machines with insufficient RAM and SSD goes against them, in many ways.

Let's say, gaming.

How can they advertise that the game runs on basic Macbook Airs, when the game itself requires 80Gb (160Gb to install !), but the machine has only 256Gb os SSD? And App Store doesn't let you download or install to external devices.

That's crazy stupid. They will never create a proper gaming user base when the vast majority of users buys the basic specs machines.


Who would buy a base Air for gaming?

I think users have a responsibility for making an informed decision. Can't have Apple do all the hand holding.
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
But what I think is that we should have laws about the right to replace 3 things in the easiest way: Batteries, RAM and SSD. People sues apple for so many things, and these are the main anti-consumer practices they do.
Then I really suggest that you start the ball rolling. You need to have 'standing' meaning that you own the product the deficiencies of which you are suing for, and find a lawyer.

If you don't have an 8Gb Apple Silicon chip, then you don't have standing because you've not been harmed, you just have opinions which in law really don't get you far. If you do have an 8Gb system and can show any harm resulting from it at all, there's not a shortage of lawyers who would likely be happy to take your case, try and build a class action out of it, and pocket a lot of the money if they win for you. Lawyers love these cases. if they think there's any hope of winning. Lots of money, the prestige of taking on the big corporate. And it costs you nothing because they only get paid if you win.

If you really think you have a case, then go for it.
 

Howard2k

macrumors 603
Mar 10, 2016
5,288
5,123
It is not me. Apple is saying that users can buy base MacBook Air for gaming. They say that. They advertise that. It is all on them.

Sure, you can play some games on the MBA. Apples has their own entire gaming subscription thing. But I don't believe that someone who is into AAA gaming would buy a base MacBook Air to do so.

But let's say that I'm wrong, where are all the posts from people saying "WTH Apple, why can I not play CP2077/RDR2/COD:MW/Fortnite/whateverelse in top end specs for hours on end from my base MacBook Air?"?

There would be some complaints, right? And I'm sure that there have been, I just don't remember seeing them. I'm not saying that nobody would think that you could do that on a base Air. I'm sure there's a very small number of people who would make that mistake, granted. I'm not saying there has never been a post, but if there have been posts of that nature, then there have not been a significant number.

Clearly I missed the specific Apple ad that you're referring to. Is it online still?

Apple cannot cover every base. Like I said, users have to make some informed decisions and I think most people do. The absolute overwhelming deluge of returns (ha) of base systems from Apple Direct, Apple resellers, and Apple refurb back to Apple has clearly not made them change their mind.
 
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Pressure

macrumors 603
May 30, 2006
5,077
1,408
Denmark
Microsoft one-ups Apple asking $300 (€360 in EU) to upgrade from 8GB of RAM to 16GB of RAM in the new Surface Laptop 6 series 😅

$400 upgrade for the 16GB of RAM and 512GB SSD combo, just like Apple (although you also get a bump in GPU spec with Apple).
 

ric22

macrumors 68020
Mar 8, 2022
2,038
1,945
Microsoft one-ups Apple asking $300 (€360 in EU) to upgrade from 8GB of RAM to 16GB of RAM in the new Surface Laptop 6 series 😅

$400 upgrade for the 16GB of RAM and 512GB SSD combo, just like Apple (although you also get a bump in GPU spec with Apple).
Well, I just went on the German Microsoft store and can't verify what you just claimed. Which EU store did you look at? They don't even sell the Surface 6, and RAM/storage cost half what you claim on other devices...
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
It is not me. Apple is saying that users can buy base MacBook Air for gaming. They say that. They advertise that. It is all on them.
Having seen games being played on a base model MBA, if Apple have said it is possible to play games on one, they're right. Personally, I neither play games nor have I ever seen any Apple marketing which says the MBA is 'for gaming'. I honestly can't imagine any reasonable person deciding that for their gaming needs, they'll dash out right now and drop at least twice what they need to on a MacBook Air than on a solid and predictable Windows laptop, or... heaven help us, a PS5 or Xbox, Switch or whatever else.

For casual gaming it seems adequate. The marketing phrase: We make this because it's adequate has never featured in any advertising from any business that I have ever heard of, and I can't see any reason at all you'd expect Apple to be the first.
 

ric22

macrumors 68020
Mar 8, 2022
2,038
1,945
Having seen games being played on a base model MBA, if Apple have said it is possible to play games on one, they're right. Personally, I neither play games nor have I ever seen any Apple marketing which says the MBA is 'for gaming'. I honestly can't imagine any reasonable person deciding that for their gaming needs, they'll dash out right now and drop at least twice what they need to on a MacBook Air than on a solid and predictable Windows laptop, or... heaven help us, a PS5 or Xbox, Switch or whatever else.

For casual gaming it seems adequate. The marketing phrase: We make this because it's adequate has never featured in any advertising from any business that I have ever heard of, and I can't see any reason at all you'd expect Apple to be the first.
I'm pretty sure Apple used some strong superlatives to describe the M3's gaming credentials when they announced it... as they did with M1 and M2.
 

Pressure

macrumors 603
May 30, 2006
5,077
1,408
Denmark
Well, I just went on the German Microsoft store and can't verify what you just claimed. Which EU store did you look at? They don't even sell the Surface 6, and RAM/storage cost half what you claim on other devices...
The official business price list, which you may not have access to 🤷🏼‍♂️

Anyway, here is the preorder prices directly from Microsoft US.

Screenshot 2024-03-22 at 12.53.56.png
 
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za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
I'm pretty sure Apple used some strong superlatives to describe the M3's gaming credentials when they announced it... as they did with M1 and M2.
Their website has quotes such as "MacBook Air sails through work and play — and the M3 chip brings even greater capabilities to the world’s most popular laptop."; "The moment you open your MacBook Air, it’s ready for whatever you throw at it."; "Whether you’re multitasking between apps, editing videos in iMovie, or playing Baldur’s Gate 3 in Game Mode, the M3 chip brings more speed and fluidity to everything you do."

I have no idea what Baldur's Gate 3 is, but these are not exactly a ringing statement that the MBA is 'for gaming'. It is advertising fluff to tell us that this is a pretty capable product.

Personally, I think Apple's marketing language is a bit of a joke, and certainly when they describe something as 'magical', I doubt many expect Harry Potter to pop out when the power button is pressed. But knowing that manufacturers of all sorts of products are trying to sell their products to us, the onus is on the customer to take this kind of thing with a pinch of salt, and verify the whatever-it-is as suitable for their needs themselves.

My point to @precision01 is that there is a form of redress for anyone to take if they think they have been harmed by untruthful product claims. In fact in some legal jurisdictions, advertising of this kind must be demonstrably truthful, so redress if it isn't is even easier.
 

ric22

macrumors 68020
Mar 8, 2022
2,038
1,945
Their website has quotes such as "MacBook Air sails through work and play — and the M3 chip brings even greater capabilities to the world’s most popular laptop."; "The moment you open your MacBook Air, it’s ready for whatever you throw at it."; "Whether you’re multitasking between apps, editing videos in iMovie, or playing Baldur’s Gate 3 in Game Mode, the M3 chip brings more speed and fluidity to everything you do."

I have no idea what Baldur's Gate 3 is, but these are not exactly a ringing statement that the MBA is 'for gaming'. It is advertising fluff to tell us that this is a pretty capable product.

Personally, I think Apple's marketing language is a bit of a joke, and certainly when they describe something as 'magical', I doubt many expect Harry Potter to pop out when the power button is pressed. But knowing that manufacturers of all sorts of products are trying to sell their products to us, the onus is on the customer to take this kind of thing with a pinch of salt, and verify the whatever-it-is as suitable for their needs themselves.

My point to @precision01 is that there is a form of redress for anyone to take if they think they have been harmed by untruthful product claims. In fact in some legal jurisdictions, advertising of this kind must be demonstrably truthful, so redress if it isn't is even easier.
Putting the rest of your message to one side... you've never heard of the Baldur's Gate series? 🤯
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
Putting the rest of your message to one side... you've never heard of the Baldur's Gate series? 🤯
Ha!! You noticed that!

No, no idea. Clearly a game, but even in the days when I wrote games for computers (it was a long, long time ago) I had to get other people to play them to see if they worked.

I'm useless at gaming and so don't find it at all enjoyable.
 

ric22

macrumors 68020
Mar 8, 2022
2,038
1,945
Ha!! You noticed that!

No, no idea. Clearly a game, but even in the days when I wrote games for computers (it was a long, long time ago) I had to get other people to play them to see if they worked.

I'm useless at gaming and so don't find it at all enjoyable.
I'm not at all up on gaming any more- I mostly lost interest in games around 25 years ago, and I have found it practically impossible to find enthusiasm for anything my partner has bought for her PS5. The first few Baldur's games came out just before I stopped gaming, and I really enjoyed them. I'm not sure if the new one is demanding on Macs... I suspect it might not be, as the genre is RPG.

Did you work on any famous games?
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
I'm not at all up on gaming any more- I mostly lost interest in games around 25 years ago, and I have found it practically impossible to find enthusiasm for anything my partner has bought for her PS5. The first few Baldur's games came out just before I stopped gaming, and I really enjoyed them. I'm not sure if the new one is demanding on Macs... I suspect it might not be, as the genre is RPG.

Did you work on any famous games?
I would think for Baldur's Gate 3 to be in Apple's fluff on their site, it probably isn't demanding, but however well a MBA could play it, it would be way beyond my talent to try!

I did work on a few fairly well known games, in the sense that in those days the computing business was widely fragmented by manufacturer, so I worked on writing machine-specific versions. Those were the fun days, cramming software into 8 or 16k, then the sheer luxury of having 32 instead!
 
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theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,548
7,469
Microsoft markup pricing for business customers? Brilliant 😅😅😅
Of course - then they can offer huge discounts when bidding for contracts *and* make a packet when those businesses need to buy anything outside of their contract. Fairly typical “Business to business“ practice… If you want the real price, have your people call their people.

Anyway, even at retail the Microsoft Surface range is one of the outliers that make Apple kit look cheap. Could be why, on most lists of laptop market share, Apple are usually #4 behind HPDelNovo while MS are buried somewhere in “other”, despite their massive software dominance. Look up other ”ultrabooks” from the top 5 in the $1000+ range and they are typically either starting at 16GB/512 SSD or can be upgraded to both of those for a couple of hundred bucks total.

I’m sure there’s a MS surface fan site out there where people are hammering MS for their upgrade prices, although “go buy a PC then” is a slightly easier option in that case…
 
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theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,548
7,469
But what I think is that we should have laws about the right to replace 3 things in the easiest way: Batteries, RAM and SSD. People sues apple for so many things, and these are the main anti-consumer practices they do.
Agree with the SSD and Batteries (although you might have to put up with your laptop being a mm or two thicker, esp if the battery needs thicker casing to allow joe public to safely remove them without self immolation) but LPDDR RAM - as used in most thin’n’crispy laptops as well as the entire Mac range - has to be surface mount soldered to the logic board as close to the CPU as possible and couldn’t (in the past) be made user replaceable. Driving signals very fast down long wires & coping with degradation from connectors etc. takes power…

Samsung recently announced a new type of press-fit LPDDR module that could change that going forward, but I don’t know if it’s been spotted in the wild yet.
 
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ewitte

macrumors member
Jan 3, 2024
39
22
8GB only exists to show that they have products at a certain price point. It is still absurd for pro level machines. I'm fine in this instance with lack of upgradability because they are doing something not (currently) possible with slot memory. I mean you can get 4/8 channel DDR5 workstation/server chips but those are more expensive than the Ultra which still has more memory bandwidth.
 
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