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kenoh

macrumors 604
Jul 18, 2008
6,507
10,850
Glasgow, UK
Nikon? That’s my boy!

Yeah I was swearing as I typed it.... my hands started shaking and my head went woozy.... I need to avoid Nikon...
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Yes, I’ve heard that Leica support can be slow. I read that the level of service can be better for pro users but being a gentlemanly type Id probably be sent to the back of the que. In 5 years use I’ve never needed Hasselbald support. I think most things have to be packed off to Sweden. They closed all their individual country offices a couple of years back which surely makes things worse. I’m going to have to make a list of questions to take with me to the Photography Show in a couple of weeks.

Until a couple of years ago I kept a Canon 5D system as backup but it got so little use I couldn’t justify keeping it and swapped it for a Canon M5 which I’ve used for family and travel. The pictures are fine but I really don’t get on with the handling. I often use my H in the dark and the controls just fall to hand. The M5 is too much of a fiddle... which brings me full circle. I really don’t want to end up with two cameras that I don’t really like using.

Yep, hasselblad back to Sweden, Leica back to Germany... I hope Leica pro support is faster than my nobody consumer support but yes, I think on a mature system, the likelihood of you needing support is slim to none....
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,039
56,069
Behind the Lens, UK
Yeah I was swearing as I typed it.... my hands started shaking and my head went woozy.... I need to avoid Nikon...
[doublepost=1551726262][/doublepost]

Yep, hasselblad back to Sweden, Leica back to Germany... I hope Leica pro support is faster than my nobody consumer support but yes, I think on a mature system, the likelihood of you needing support is slim to none....
Nikon goes to Poland from the UK since JP closed.
 

steveash

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Aug 7, 2008
527
245
UK
For those interested, I made the decision and went for the Leica. I found a good deal on a used one and will use it in parallel with my old camera while I decide which one to keep. Its looking like we already have a winner. Now I have to get out and produce some decent work to pay for all the expense!!
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,039
56,069
Behind the Lens, UK
For those interested, I made the decision and went for the Leica. I found a good deal on a used one and will use it in parallel with my old camera while I decide which one to keep. Its looking like we already have a winner. Now I have to get out and produce some decent work to pay for all the expense!!
Enjoy your new camera.
 
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kallisti

macrumors 68000
Apr 22, 2003
1,751
6,670
For those interested, I made the decision and went for the Leica. I found a good deal on a used one and will use it in parallel with my old camera while I decide which one to keep. Its looking like we already have a winner. Now I have to get out and produce some decent work to pay for all the expense!!
While the specific circumstances that prompted this thread have been resolved (and a huge congratulations to @steveash on your purchase!!!), I think the general question is still an interesting one.

Most of the replies have tended to fall into the category of "ergonomics matter because you will shoot more with a camera that feels right ergonomically". Ergonomics can relate to nothing more than "the way it feels in my hand". It can also include how easy it is to access the controls you need either through button layout or menu navigation. All of this is really important and I don't want to downplay it.

My counterpoint would be: does the "ergonomically best" camera allow you to capture the kinds of images that you want to capture?

For example, I used a Leica M9, MM, and M(240) for years. Once my son started getting older and moving around more, I found that manual focus with a rangefinder was vastly inferior to having AF. While I loved the feel of the Leicas, they weren't the right tools for what I then found myself shooting most of the time.

Another example: last year I bought an underwater P&S to take pics of my son in the swimming pool (the positively-reviewed Olympus Tough TG-5). It can shoot RAW and has an f/2 lens. Ergonomically, it is a nightmare to use. Nothing about it is intuitive, from button placement to menus. I absolutely loathe the experience of using it. Adding insult to injury, its files aren't even close in IQ to what I can get with my other cameras. Yet I still use it, because it can do something that none of my other cameras can.

There are certainly cases where the "bells and whistles" of one camera are nothing more than fluff. But there are also cases where an ergonomically inferior camera can do things that a better camera (in an ergonomic sense) cannot.

Don't cut off your nose to spite your face--if a certain camera (or camera system) has features that are important for the images you want to create, ergonomics sometimes has to take a back-seat to the realities of being able to capture the images you desire.
 
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v3rlon

macrumors 6502a
Sep 19, 2014
925
750
Earth (usually)
I would say that the "feel" of the camera can be a couple of different things.

One is how comfortable it is in your hands. If you have large hands, then maybe Sony doesn't work for you ("Sony: because caucasians are too damn tall." - Crazy People).

Then there is the selections, buttons, and menus. If you find yourself overriding the auto-focus enough, the ability to just grab the ring and twist may be preferable to selecting a switch or menu item to go to manual focus. It doesn't only matter if Canon and Fuji have the same feature you need, but you have to also consider how easy it is to get to that feature you use all the time.

If you need more customize-able buttons to quickly access needed features, then you might find a camera with too few to be an ergonomic nightmare.

If you are some kind of bureaucratic red-tape masochist, you may find that Nikon doesn't punish you enough with its menu system to make you 'earn' that shot.

So, how comfortable it is to simply hold and push buttons versus how quick and easy it is to get to the features YOU use the most often.

Either way, I think we can all agree that the answer to the original question is "VERY."
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,353
6,497
Kentucky
I've used cameras of all shapes and sizes, and some quite literally with the ergonomics of a brick.

Just yesterday, I shot two frames on a Calumet 45N(two frames is probably an equivalent amount of handling to a few hundred shots from a typical DSLR user :) ) along with two rolls through a Nikon F2SB-this is one of the ones that requires you to twiddle the aperture ring when you mount a new lens. I find F2s on the whole to be nice to use, but they're not overly ergonomic either.

My first "sculpted" camera was a Canon T90, and it was a revelation in just how comfortable a camera could be to use. It also eventually led me to Nikons and realizing that they just fit my hands better...
 

Lee_Bo

Cancelled
Mar 26, 2017
606
878
Feel is vey important to me. That's why (1) all my Canon's have battery grips installed and (2) all my telephoto lenses have the tripod rings removed.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,353
6,497
Kentucky
Feel is vey important to me. That's why (1) all my Canon's have battery grips installed and (2) all my telephoto lenses have the tripod rings removed.

I don't have that many lenses with tripod collars, and the Nikons I have aren't the best about being able to remove the collar completely.

At least on my 70-200 f/2.8 VRI, though, I can pull the foot off and then rotate its "stub" up to the top of the lens where it's mostly out of the way. On some of my other lenses, like my 300mm f/4, the best you can do is rotate the foot out of the way.

Granted I don't want to get rid of the collar completely as I do still actually use it for its intended purpose. The removable foot is actually something I see as a benefit, since I was able to put a Kirk foot on my 70-200(or rather bought the lens used and advertised with one on it, got a factory foot instead, and KEH both dug up a Kirk and let me keep the factory one). The Kirk foot is otherwise usable with a standard tripod thread, but is made such that it will fit directly into an Arca-style QR clamp, so I can put it directly into my Arca-Swiss B1 without needing an additional QR plate.

I go back and forth on battery grips. I like the feel and handling of full-size pro bodies with an integrated grip, but don't like the weight. I have grips for most of my smaller cameras, but don't generally use them. I also don't like the design Nikon has used since the D300 era where the main battery remains in the camera, since you have to remove the grip to change that battery. The D200 and earlier grips, plus the film era ones(including for the F100 and F6) fit up in the camera's main battery chamber. The D200 grip(MB-D200) lets you put two rechargeable side-by-side in the grip itself. When I use a grip on a newer camera, I tell the camera to use the battery in the grip first, and try to change or charge it as soon as it starts getting low so that I don't have to break things apart to change or charge the one in the camera. That's probably not overly healthy for the battery, though. At least on the D300 and D700(both use the same MB-D10 grip) I have the adapters that let me use the D2/D3 battery, which lasts a really long time powering those cameras.
 

AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,593
13,435
Alaska
I do prefer a logical arrangement of knobs and buttons, and by that I mean easy to control and not too cramped for my large hands. Sometimes a button is poorly placed, which results in you triggering it by mistake. I found my last camera had me accidentally starting video recording, and when using the viewfinder, my nose would trigger the touchscreen. I suppose I don’t expect perfect feel, but a few poor design decisions or an undersized body for your hands can make an otherwise good camera frustrating.
That's exactly what I like about a camera (the buttons or controls layout). I got used to the Canon 7D, and the 5D2 (same layout, and even use the same batteries). Also, I don't like touch screens because such things drain the battery pretty fast in cold weather. I read somewhere that the 5D4 has a touch screen, so I have no idea if I will ever upgrade to it.
 

Pipper99

macrumors 68040
Aug 14, 2010
3,823
3,772
Fort Worth, TX
To me it matters and this was confirmed for me when I first held my Fuji X-T2, coming from a 5D with battery grip. The X-T2 has everything I look for with its analogue controls, very involving to use :)

I've had a Nikon D300 for the past 12 years, and I decided to finally get a new camera. I bought a Fuji X-T3 last week, and I do love how it feels. I especially love the analog controls. The smaller form factor is nice, too: noticeably easier for me to carry frequently. I considered an X100F, but I really wanted the flexibility of interchangeable lenses.
 
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