How is NAS compared with Time Machine in terms of reliability in recovering the files in case something bad happens to the internal drive

[OS X Dude]

Thanks you letting me know, I haven't been following closely enough. And their development looks fairly recent, bare metal support was added literally last week in 2.6.0. I don't have spare units to test nor do we have the time to do virtual test, I guess we will sit out at least half a year and see if it becomes production ready by then.

Another thing of note is now the Time Machine in Ventura finally lets you choose daily / weekly backup frequency instead of the old mandatory hourly.

Welcome 👍🏼 It hasn't changed *that* much since its inception in December, although yes bare-metal now being an option is handy.

The setup, even from an MDM perspective, needs to be a lot nicer before I start recommending it to customers, but the potential is very much definitely there. ABB is lovely, and where it shines over Time Machine is communication - it tells the admin whether a backup failed or completed every time, rather than leaving it to be a guessing game with TM.

I made a custom script feeding a Jamf Smart Group that delivers a really nice custom pop-up to the end-user if their Mac hasn't backed-up for three days (to prevent false triggers over weekends), but that's not something you should have to do and it is less effective on non-1:1 Macs compared to ABB's native notifications.

 

[Chancha]

Welcome 👍🏼 It hasn't changed *that* much since its inception in December, although yes bare-metal now being an option is handy.

The setup, even from an MDM perspective, needs to be a lot nicer before I start recommending it to customers, but the potential is very much definitely there. ABB is lovely, and where it shines over Time Machine is communication - it tells the admin whether a backup failed or completed every time, rather than leaving it to be a guessing game with TM.

I made a custom script feeding a Jamf Smart Group that delivers a really nice custom pop-up to the end-user if their Mac hasn't backed-up for three days (to prevent false triggers over weekends), but that's not something you should have to do and it is less effective on non-1:1 Macs compared to ABB's native notifications.

How do you feel about enabling KEXT and also giving away admin password for the APFS token? From a security standpoint it seems to ask for too much (I think ABB for Windows only needs admin credentials for when installing the agent).

 

[OS X Dude]

How do you feel about enabling KEXT and also giving away admin password for the APFS token? From a security standpoint it seems to ask for too much (I think ABB for Windows only needs admin credentials for when installing the agent).

I can remotely enable KEXT via MDM and even bypass the requirement to alter Secure Boot settings in doing so, and the token is required for FileVault-encrypted disks. It would always be required for any such solution due to how Apple architected APFS. It creates a hidden user on the Mac to interact with the system, something like _abbsetupuser if I remember correctly (the _ prefix denoting it's a hidden user).

It made me just wish that Time Machine to network destinations saw some real improvements around reliability, speed (it's slow even before doing the actual backup part) and user communication. It has the blueprints of being perfect, it just needs to be brought into 2023.

 

[Chancha]

I can remotely enable KEXT via MDM and even bypass the requirement to alter Secure Boot settings in doing so, and the token is required for FileVault-encrypted disks. It would always be required for any such solution due to how Apple architected APFS. It creates a hidden user on the Mac to interact with the system, something like _abbsetupuser if I remember correctly (the _ prefix denoting it's a hidden user).

It made me just wish that Time Machine to network destinations saw some real improvements around reliability, speed (it's slow even before doing the actual backup part) and user communication. It has the blueprints of being perfect, it just needs to be brought into 2023.

That's interesting, never knew MDM has ability for that now; I maintain only a handful of Macs in our studio, so far there's no real need to just use Jamf or something of that calibre, but at times things get very tedious such as backup management. I do also wish ABB for Macs is production ready and possibly a little bit more hassle free, as the single-plane-of-glass style of management really saves time while doesn't require technical knowledge.

I still use TM over network but my life wouldn't depend on it. I have never had the need to do bare metal restoration from a network share and hope I never will have to. Just the other day I was only trying to restore a single email from within the Apple Mail.app TM interface, the whole machine frozen, like twice.

I am unsure about Apple's strategy or intention. When Time Capsule was still sold and that the AirPort line up of products also, it looked like Apple was eager to if not excelled in bring network / backup solutions to the average users. Nowadays they seem to want to get back on track but they are taking baby steps at times. I also suspect if macOS ever got "upgrades" in backup ability, Apple probably prefers it being on their cloud.

 

[hajime]

What is the difference between bare metal backup and restoration vs. cloning?

 

[OS X Dude]

That's interesting, never knew MDM has ability for that now; I maintain only a handful of Macs in our studio, so far there's no real need to just use Jamf or something of that calibre, but at times things get very tedious such as backup management. I do also wish ABB for Macs is production ready and possibly a little bit more hassle free, as the single-plane-of-glass style of management really saves time while doesn't require technical knowledge.

I still use TM over network but my life wouldn't depend on it. I have never had the need to do bare metal restoration from a network share and hope I never will have to. Just the other day I was only trying to restore a single email from within the Apple Mail.app TM interface, the whole machine frozen, like twice.

I am unsure about Apple's strategy or intention. When Time Capsule was still sold and that the AirPort line up of products also, it looked like Apple was eager to if not excelled in bring network / backup solutions to the average users. Nowadays they seem to want to get back on track but they are taking baby steps at times. I also suspect if macOS ever got "upgrades" in backup ability, Apple probably prefers it being on their cloud.

I'd recommend talking to Jamf's Sales team or possibly looking at a solution like Jamf Now, which is much cheaper and will still streamline your core management tasks and offer single pane-of-glass insight into your fleet. If you're an educational organisation, you can also try Jamf School - more flexibility than Now at a reduced cost compared to Pro.

It'd also free your time for other IT tasks you may have, and enable you to make remote changes to save some office commuting.

 

[phrehdd]

In the past, I also used Carbon Copy Cloner and Super Duper to backup my Mac which included a Bootcamp partition.
Now that Bootcamp is gone, I need to find a reliable way to backup a separate Windows PC. In the past, even well-known backup programs for Windows failed to recover. So I wonder if smb all the user files from the PC to the Mac and then backup is better and more reliable.

Been awhile but have you explored Ghost backups? I think Norton owns the product now. Ghost has been around a long time and often used in business environment to make a backup of a system before any changes were made so they can restore. Also, a heavily fragged system can be "ghosted" and then the restore would occur without the fragmentation.

Perhaps with Parallels and the like for VMs, a Windows machine can be created and that would be easily backed up and also can engage snapshots.

 

[Chancha]

I'd recommend talking to Jamf's Sales team or possibly looking at a solution like Jamf Now, which is much cheaper and will still streamline your core management tasks and offer single pane-of-glass insight into your fleet. If you're an educational organisation, you can also try Jamf School - more flexibility than Now at a reduced cost compared to Pro.

It'd also free your time for other IT tasks you may have, and enable you to make remote changes to save some office commuting.

Thanks for the suggestions, I will look into them; Jamf Now is the one that I have been eyeing on for a while.

I actually am not a dedicated IT admin, I own a music related small business where we don't (can't afford) have such a post. So I have to make-shift myself into that role since I got some more technical experience than my otherwise more creative or academic colleagues. Manually maintaining Macs is actually not that bad I have to say, but at times it does get tedious.

 

[Chancha]

What is the difference between bare metal backup and restoration vs. cloning?

AFAIK they have overlaps, but are describing different aspects.

Bare metal refers to the ability to restore the backup directly to a machine, regardless of how the backups were made. This usually means the backups are not singular, but a series of incremental instances where you can even choose to restore to an older version.

Cloning specifically requires one instance of a running system to be replicated, it typically means the copy is bootable, probably externally in conjunction to the existing boot. Clone does not require incremental / versioned backups, usually people just clone once and the copies will then split history.

 

[OS X Dude]

Thanks for the suggestions, I will look into them; Jamf Now is the one that I have been eyeing on for a while.

I actually am not a dedicated IT admin, I own a music related small business where we don't (can't afford) have such a post. So I have to make-shift myself into that role since I got some more technical experience than my otherwise more creative or academic colleagues. Manually maintaining Macs is actually not that bad I have to say, but at times it does get tedious.

You're welcome 😊 Jamf Now is also 'free for 3' - that is to say, free for the first 3 devices so you could dip your toes in if you fancy a go.

For business-owned devices, I'd strongly recommend having Apple Business Manager (free to apply, just need your business' DUNS number - which is easily findable online). Devices enrolled in there effectively have a proof-of-ownership to AppleCare simply by being registered in your account. Can make Activation Lock bypass requests far easier to obtain when you've lost the original receipts/invoices for the devices.

Coincidentally, music is also my business away from work! 😊

 

[jclin10]

Trying to follow along with this thread…

Does it sound like Time Machine directed to a NAS is not a reliable solution? I’m trying to set up Time Machine for my kids’ laptops. I could also just attach a small external SSD to each computer, but not sure whether it is more reliable to direct TM to a NAS or direct my kids to attach an external drive to their computers all the time!

 

[Boyd01]

not sure whether it is more reliable to direct TM to a NAS or direct my kids to attach an external drive to their computers all the time!

Backup software aside, I think having time machine automatically backup their Macs over wifi whenever they're home is going to be a lot more robust than "directing them" to attach an external disk.

 

[hajime]

I want to clarify that I only opt for one option. If Time Machine is more reliable than NAS, I buy a Mac to use Time Machine to backup. On the other hand, if NAS is more reliable, I use the money to buy a NAS rather than a Mac to run Time Machine. I have no plan to use Time Machine for backup and store the files to a NAS as I don’t want to spend money to buy two devices.

 

[Chancha]

I want to clarify that I only opt for one option. If Time Machine is more reliable than NAS, I buy a Mac to use Time Machine to backup. On the other hand, if NAS is more reliable, I use the money to buy a NAS rather than a Mac to run Time Machine. I have no plan to use Time Machine for backup and store the files to a NAS as I don’t want to spend money to buy two devices.

The answer is clearly a NAS, especially a Synology. There has never been one second in Apple's history where their backup solution is even close to being adequate for serious use. But I must stress it is possible if not common for a PC/Mac to act as a decent backup target machine, if the user knows what he is doing while setting it up (with 3rd party software). A NAS in this sense already has these out of the box so it is a better solution for your case.

 

[Chancha]

Backup software aside, I think having time machine automatically backup their Macs over wifi whenever they're home is going to be a lot more robust than "directing them" to attach an external disk.

For personal use, using NAS as TM target is fine. TM is one of those things where if it works, it works. The extra network layer does add one more point of failure though, if you compare that to directly attached HDDs. For ease, I would say TM to NAS over WiFi is the least painful and does the job, but as an extra you may want to add a cheap external HDD which is backed up less frequently, says weekly or even monthly, while the NAS route stays hourly or at least daily.

 

[hajime]

The answer is clearly a NAS, especially a Synology. There has never been one second in Apple's history where their backup solution is even close to being adequate for serious use. But I must stress it is possible if not common for a PC/Mac to act as a decent backup target machine, if the user knows what he is doing while setting it up (with 3rd party software). A NAS in this sense already has these out of the box so it is a better solution for your case.

Thanks

 

[Soondae]

I'm still running my 2015 Apple Time Capsule 2TB model. I have experimented with Asus routers and other brands but my old Time Capsule manages my internet and Wi-Fi just as well. And certainly manages my Time Machine BU perfectly from my 2018 Intel MacMini. I also have a Synology NAS on my network that I have used in the past for TM backups, always seemed to work well. However I now only use the NAS for my media server.