How long before Mac OS is Apple Silicon only?

[FreakinEurekan]

I think what will happen is that Apple will remove the ability to built Intel targets in future versions of Xcode, but Rosetta will stay around for a while for compatibility with oder software.

Agreed, Rosetta will be around "for a while" to ensure compatibility with Intel code.

Comparing to PPC Rosetta... right now we're in between "Leopard" and "Snow Leopard" - Leopard ran on either either PPC or Intel, and both had Rosetta to allow PPC code to run on Intel. That era ran for about 6 years; back then OS releases were a lot less frequent.

I'd guess the last OS option to support Intel will be somewhere around macOS 15 or 16, so a year or two. Then continued Rosetta2 support probably until... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 18 or 19 before that's dropped?

Of course the PPC>Intel changeover was a little quicker than Intel>AS so it's not exactly a parallel experience.

 

[theorist9]

Time to update the thread!

With Sequoia, Apple will continue to support Intel Macs. Further, they did very little pruning—support is nearly unchanged vs. Sonoma. It appears the only models dropped were the 2018–19 MBA's:

MacOS Sequoia hardware requirements, according to Wikipedia:

• iMac (2019 or later)
• iMac Pro (2017)
• MacBook Air (2020 or later)
• MacBook Pro (2018 or later)
• Mac Mini (2018 or later)
• Mac Pro (2019 or later)
• Mac Studio (all models)

macOS Sequoia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

MacOS Sonoma hardware requirements, for comparison:

• iMac (2019 or later)
• iMac Pro (2017)
• MacBook Air (2018 or later)
• MacBook Pro (2018 or later)
• Mac Mini (2018 or later)
• Mac Pro (2019 or later)
• Mac Studio (all models)

macOS Sonoma - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[AAPLGeek]

I think we still have at least two more macOS releases before it goes ASi only

 

[theorist9]

I think we still have at least two more macOS releases before it goes ASi only

Are you thinking two more including Sequoia, or two more after Sequoia?

Certainly it seems unlikely they would drop all those Intel models at once next year (with MacOS 16), so I think at the very least we'll see Intel support continue through then. Not sure about MacOS 17, though. A year ago, in a poll on another site, I made a prediction that MacOS 16 would be the last one to support Intel. We shall see...

 

[AAPLGeek]

Are you thinking two more including Sequoia, or two more after Sequoia?

Certainly it seems unlikely they would drop all those Intel models at once next year (with MacOS 16), so I think at the very least we'll see Intel support continue through then. Not sure about MacOS 17, though. A year ago, in a poll on another site, I made a prediction that MacOS 16 would be the last one to support Intel. We shall see...

Two more after Sequoia. Seeing how iMac 2019 is still supported, they likely wouldn't drop both 2019 and 2020 releases in just one swoop next year.

ASi fans are always forgetting that Intel Macs still represent a much larger portion of the Mac user base and Apple wouldn't just drop them all in one go.

 

[theorist9]

Two more after Sequoia. Seeing how iMac 2019 is still supported, they likely wouldn't drop both 2019 and 2020 releases in just one swoop next year.

Agreed--but avoiding just that wouldn't require two more after Sequoia. They could drop the 17/18 Intels next year with MacOS 16, and the 19/20 Intels in 2026 with MacOS 17, making MacOS 16 (one after Sequoia) the last to support Intel Macs.

 

[polyphenol]

Can those of us in the UK call it macOS Wellingtonia?

 

[mactinkerlover]

Two more after Sequoia. Seeing how iMac 2019 is still supported, they likely wouldn't drop both 2019 and 2020 releases in just one swoop next year.

ASi fans are always forgetting that Intel Macs still represent a much larger portion of the Mac user base and Apple wouldn't just drop them all in one go.

That's a possibility, but I really think that there's a good chance that all of intel is going to get dumped next year TBH. That is what I was expecting for the past year or 2 now. I knew that macOS 15 was going to probably run on late model intel macs, and here we are.

 

[Sydde]

No, I believe there will still be a morsel of Intel support in the following macOS. They will cut it off at November '19, which will leave some MBPs, the Pro and the 5K iMac covered. But the OS feature set will omit some stuff from the Intel version. Maybe a lot of good stuff.

 

[ADGrant]

No, I believe there will still be a morsel of Intel support in the following macOS. They will cut it off at November '19, which will leave some MBPs, the Pro and the 5K iMac covered. But the OS feature set will omit some stuff from the Intel version. Maybe a lot of good stuff.

I think the 2017 iMac Pro will be supported until the end of Intel support. So will the 2018 Mac mini which Apple still uses as a build server for Xcode cloud. The 2020 iMac is a given for support until the end but I am surprised the 2019 has lasted this long as it was the last Intel Mac model not to have a T2 chip.

 

[Homy]

ASi fans are always forgetting that Intel Macs still represent a much larger portion of the Mac user base and Apple wouldn't just drop them all in one go.

Not on Steam at least.

 

[deconstruct60]

I think the 2017 iMac Pro will be supported until the end of Intel support. So will the 2018 Mac mini which Apple still uses as a build server for Xcode cloud.

The 2017 iMac Pro was pragmatically superseded by both the MP 2019 and iMac 2020. Apple happen to 'coast' a bit longer until March 2021, but it was comatose before any of the M-series systems shipped.

iMac Pro Officially Discontinued, Removed From Apple's Site and No Longer Available for Purchase

The iMac Pro has been officially discontinued as of this afternoon, with the machine no longer available for purchase from the online Apple Store. ...

www.macrumors.com

[ 2021 - 2017 4 years. Over extended service life tends to shorten support time after withdrawn from sales. (e.g., MP 2013 dropping off cliff quickly. ) ]

but it was dropped significantly before the Mac Studio could be the more direct replacement in March 2022. That was likely to put it on the 'countdown clock' sooner.


The 2018 Mini's start date doesn't matter as much as when it stopped being sold. Which really wasn't that long ago.

Apple Removes M1 Mac Mini and Intel Mac Mini From Lineup

Apple has stopped offering Intel-powered Mac mini models following the launch of new Apple silicon models featuring its new M2 and M2 Pro chips. Up...

www.macrumors.com

Apple liked to pretend during most of 2020-2022 that they had 'wrapped up" the transition work. The reality was the Mn Pro version of the Mini arrived quite late. ( past the "about 2 years" timeline. ) It was sold for years after the iMac Pro stopped.

The XCode cloud nodes could stay on "just security patches" updates for several years after Apple stops upgrades of macOS. The patches would just get sparse, but if macOS on Intel is winding down integrate/build/test work for Intel binaries is going to start to wind down also.

The 2020 iMac is a given for support until the end but I am surprised the 2019 has lasted this long as it was the last Intel Mac model not to have a T2 chip.

The 2020 iMac arrived after the formal transition announcement. The adoption rate is likely relatively smaller than than the 2019's version. The 2020 model likely was suppose to launch in 1H 2020; not the 2H 2020.

The 2019 iMac was still clinging to Fusion Drives or very small SSD drive for entry models.

iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, 2019) - Technical Specifications - Apple Support

support.apple.com

Apple was milking the old components for margin. Going T2 meant going Apple SSD only (and more price point pressure. )

 

[deconstruct60]

Not on Steam at least.

View attachment 2388329

The Intel Macs don't have to boot into macOS. hyper gamer Folks focused are doing all of that task in MacOS ?

 

[ADGrant]

The 2017 iMac Pro was pragmatically superseded by both the MP 2019 and iMac 2020. Apple happen to 'coast' a bit longer until March 2021, but it was comatose before any of the M-series systems shipped.

...

The 2018 Mini's start date doesn't matter as much as when it stopped being sold. Which really wasn't that long ago.

Apple Removes M1 Mac Mini and Intel Mac Mini From Lineup

Apple has stopped offering Intel-powered Mac mini models following the launch of new Apple silicon models featuring its new M2 and M2 Pro chips. Up...

www.macrumors.com

Apple liked to pretend during most of 2020-2022 that they had 'wrapped up" the transition work. The reality was the Mn Pro version of the Mini arrived quite late. ( past the "about 2 years" timeline. ) It was sold for years after the iMac Pro stopped.

The XCode cloud nodes could stay on "just security patches" updates for several years after Apple stops upgrades of macOS. The patches would just get sparse, but if macOS on Intel is winding down integrate/build/test work for Intel binaries is going to start to wind down also.


The 2020 iMac arrived after the formal transition announcement. The adoption rate is likely relatively smaller than than the 2019's version. The 2020 model likely was suppose to launch in 1H 2020; not the 2H 2020.

The 2019 iMac was still clinging to Fusion Drives or very small SSD drive for entry models.

iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, 2019) - Technical Specifications - Apple Support

support.apple.com

Apple was milking the old components for margin. Going T2 meant going Apple SSD only (and more price point pressure. )

The hardware in a 2017 iMac Pro is not that different to the hardware in a 2019 Mac Pro. No reason to drop support for one and not the other.

Xcode cloud nodes need to run on the latest versions of MacOS because they need to use the latest Xcode toolchains which are only supported on the latest versions of MacOS. Universal binaries can be built on Intel Macs, which is what Xcode cloud is currently doing. Apple will of course migrate to AS build nodes but it hasn't happened yet.

When Apple drops support for the 2019 iMac, they will be able to drop support for Fusion drives and conventional SSD controllers. That seems like an incentive to drop support before the T2 Macs.

 

[Pressure]

Not on Steam at least.

View attachment 2388329

It's even less as the numbers don't add up this month for some reason.

Going by model identifiers Apple Silicon now accounts for over 80% of active players on Steam on macOS.

 

[ADGrant]

It's even less as the numbers don't add up this month for some reason.

Going by model identifiers Apple Silicon now accounts for over 80% of active players on Steam on macOS.

View attachment 2388531

Well most Intel Macs were not particularly good games machines. I own one of the last Intel Macs released, a 2020 27" iMac with a 10 core i9 and a 16GB 5700XT AMD GPU. It's one of the most suitable Intel Macs for gaming (only a 2019 Mac Pro with a more advanced GPU would be better). If I was going to use it for gaming, I would use BootCamp and install Windows. Instead, I just use my Xbox Series X which has an RDNA 2 GPU instead of the first gen RDNA on my Mac.

 

[deconstruct60]

The hardware in a 2017 iMac Pro is not that different to the hardware in a 2019 Mac Pro. No reason to drop support for one and not the other.

Intel and AMD don't think they are the same.

Intel PCN killed off the W-2100 series in 2021. ( major contributing reason as to why Apple stopped shipping them.)

Product Change Notifications

Product Change Notifications collection.

www.intel.com

while the W-3200 series died off at end of 2023

Product Change Notifications

Product Change Notifications collection.

www.intel.com

AMD is dropping Polaris and early Vega support.

AMD Begins Polaris and Vega GPU Retirement Process, Reduces Ongoing Driver Support

www.anandtech.com

So why should Apple think they are the same?

[ The MP 2019 with an original W580 card can go to a W5500X

Apple Now Offering Radeon Pro W5500X for Mac Pro

Apple's Mac Pro can now be configured with a Radeon Pro W5550X with 8GB of GDDR6 memory, a graphics card option that's a step above the entry-level Radeon Pro 580X but not as expensive as the W5700X graphics card that Apple introduced as an option in April. Upgrading a Mac Pro with the Radeon...

forums.macrumors.com

Or a W660X

]

Xcode cloud nodes need to run on the latest versions of MacOS because they need to use the latest Xcode toolchains which are only supported on the latest versions of MacOS.

"on the lastest versions". Versions isn't singular. XCode typically goes two versions back.

Xcode - Support - Apple Developer

developer.apple.com

It shrinks as it get toward the end of a iteration.

Universal binaries can be built on Intel Macs, which is what Xcode cloud is currently doing. Apple will of course migrate to AS build nodes but it hasn't happened yet.

Chuckle Sep 2023 Amazon is deploying M2 series hardware to there cloud services.

" ... 19 SEP 2023 ...
New EC2 M2 Pro Mac instances are powered by Apple M2 Pro Mac Mini computers featuring 12 core CPU, 19 core GPU, 32 GiB of memory, and 16 core Apple Neural Engine and uniquely enabled by the AWS Nitro System through high-speed Thunderbolt connections, offering these Mac mini computers as fully integrated and managed compute instances with up to 10 Gbps of Amazon VPC network bandwidth and up to 8 Gbps of Amazon EBS storage bandwidth. EC2 M2 Pro Mac instances support macOS Ventura (version 13.2 or later) as AMIs.
...
... In July 2022, we introduced Amazon EC2 M1 Mac Instances built around the Apple-designed M1 System on Chip (SoC). Developers building for iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, and Apple TV applications can choose either x86-based EC2 Mac instances or Arm-based EC2 M1 instances ... "

New – Amazon EC2 M2 Pro Mac Instances Built on Apple Silicon M2 Pro Mac Mini Computers | Amazon Web Services

Today, we are announcing the general availability of Amazon EC2 M2 Pro Mac instances. These instances deliver up to 35 percent faster performance over the existing M1 Mac instances when building and testing applications for Apple platforms. New EC2 M2 Pro Mac instances are powered by Apple M2...

aws.amazon.com

Oct 2023 Apple Cloud services still hasn't gotten to M1 series yet (and folks working around compatibility bugs in workflow. )

When will Xcode Cloud use Apple Si… | Apple Developer Forums

forums.developer.apple.com

XCode Cloud may build universal binaries, but it substantantivly ignores and sidesteps actually testing universional binaries properly. It is much more aimed on churning out iOS apps and a relatively narrow nexus subset of the CI/CD process.

When Apple drops support for the 2019 iMac, they will be able to drop support for Fusion drives and conventional SSD controllers. That seems like an incentive to drop support before the T2 Macs.

Eh? As long as Apple supports Thunderbolt , PCI-e connected SSDs don't disappear with the MP 2019 across a broad swath of the Mac ecosystem. The increased flakey 3rd party SSD support seems to somewhat indicate some folks in Apple are in bozo land and wish everyone could use one and only one drive for everything. But that isn't really reality.

Fusion drive ? Yeah. That probably will dry up. The over reliance on "only one internal SSD" was one of the mistakes Apple admitted in April 2017. It is an even bigger mistake now. Apple's SSDs are not near top of the state of the art in either capacity or speed.

 

[ADGrant]

...

[ The MP 2019 with an original W580 card can go to a W5500X

Apple Now Offering Radeon Pro W5500X for Mac Pro

Apple's Mac Pro can now be configured with a Radeon Pro W5550X with 8GB of GDDR6 memory, a graphics card option that's a step above the entry-level Radeon Pro 580X but not as expensive as the W5700X graphics card that Apple introduced as an option in April. Upgrading a Mac Pro with the Radeon...

forums.macrumors.com

Or a W660X

]



"on the lastest versions". Versions isn't singular. XCode typically goes two versions back.

Xcode - Support - Apple Developer

developer.apple.com

It shrinks as it get toward the end of a iteration.



Chuckle Sep 2023 Amazon is deploying M2 series hardware to there cloud services.

" ... 19 SEP 2023 ...
New EC2 M2 Pro Mac instances are powered by Apple M2 Pro Mac Mini computers featuring 12 core CPU, 19 core GPU, 32 GiB of memory, and 16 core Apple Neural Engine and uniquely enabled by the AWS Nitro System through high-speed Thunderbolt connections, offering these Mac mini computers as fully integrated and managed compute instances with up to 10 Gbps of Amazon VPC network bandwidth and up to 8 Gbps of Amazon EBS storage bandwidth. EC2 M2 Pro Mac instances support macOS Ventura (version 13.2 or later) as AMIs.
...
... In July 2022, we introduced Amazon EC2 M1 Mac Instances built around the Apple-designed M1 System on Chip (SoC). Developers building for iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, and Apple TV applications can choose either x86-based EC2 Mac instances or Arm-based EC2 M1 instances ... "

New – Amazon EC2 M2 Pro Mac Instances Built on Apple Silicon M2 Pro Mac Mini Computers | Amazon Web Services

Today, we are announcing the general availability of Amazon EC2 M2 Pro Mac instances. These instances deliver up to 35 percent faster performance over the existing M1 Mac instances when building and testing applications for Apple platforms. New EC2 M2 Pro Mac instances are powered by Apple M2...

aws.amazon.com

Oct 2023 Apple Cloud services still hasn't gotten to M1 series yet (and folks working around compatibility bugs in workflow. )

When will Xcode Cloud use Apple Si… | Apple Developer Forums

forums.developer.apple.com

XCode Cloud may build universal binaries, but it substantantivly ignores and sidesteps actually testing universional binaries properly. It is much more aimed on churning out iOS apps and a relatively narrow nexus subset of the CI/CD process.

Apple will not be able to drop support for Polaris or Vega while they still support the 2019 Mac Pro. Yes, it is possible to install an RNDA

If you look at that Xcode support chart you provided the link to, you will see that supporting the latest version of iOS (17.4) requires the latest version of Xcode (15.3) which in turn requires macOS Sonoma 14.

I am sure why you are mentioning what Macs AWS is offering as EC2 instances. What does that have to do with Xcode cloud?