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ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,917
2,169
Redondo Beach, California
Sorry but you must be joking. A future Mac Pro with 8 ARM cores like an iMac, MacBook or iPad? Not even iMac is rumored to have 8 cores but 12 cores to begin with. Apple was clear about designing specific Mac SoC and there is nothing to stop them from adding more cores to the ARM CPU or GPU to make more powerful products like Mac Pro. They could even put several ARM chips in Mac Pro. World's fastest supercomputer now is an ARM based Japanese one with 48-core ARM CPUs (https://www.top500.org/news/japan-captures-top500-crown-arm-powered-supercomputer/).
Sorry but you must be joking. A future Mac Pro with 8 ARM cores like an iMac, MacBook or iPad? Not even iMac is rumored to have 8 cores but 12 cores to begin with. Apple was clear about designing specific Mac SoC and there is nothing to stop them from adding more cores to the ARM CPU or GPU to make more powerful products like Mac Pro. They could even put several ARM chips in Mac Pro. World's fastest supercomputer now is an ARM based Japanese one with 48-core ARM CPUs (https://www.top500.org/news/japan-captures-top500-crown-arm-powered-supercomputer/).


OK, I change this to read "Mac Pro will use the same number of cores as iMac. They will not make special chips just for MP. If iMac gets a 800 ARM core then so does the MP." My point remains the same if the number of cores is 8 or 800.

Yes they could do anything they like but are constrained by two things (1) the revenue generated from sales has to fund development and as said, they don't make a lot. and (2) Apple Silicon is not ARM. It contains ARM cores but has quite a lot more. So generic ARM chips are not usable in Apple Macs.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
We all know in the last change from PPC to Intel, eventually Rosetta and Universal Binary support was stopped. That's obvious as it exists as a stop gap transition to allow people to smoothly from all PPC to all intel.

But now we have the intel to Apple SoC transition. How long do you think Apple will give us all to move to a fully native Apple SoC environment?

This is substantively an "Apples to Oranges" comparison. Apple didn't own Rosetta. It was another company's technology that Apple licensed ( very likely had to pay a fee for every copy shipped). The length of time there was very intertwined with money and costs to continue to do so.

This Rosetta 2 works substantially different. For the most part is basically a complier that Apple developed to churn out a ARM binary from an x86-64 one. Besides any AMD/Intel patent it might get entangled in ttere isn't any licensing to be done. Once it is working then Apple can put it in maintenance mode where they make just about zero changes and the costs dramatic drop down much closer to zero per copy distributed.

Apple pretty likely won't have Rosetta 2 on the same timeline if it is something they have already paid for. There is lots of mostly comatose software that Apple bundled for more than several years with macOS. The software raid system. Apple File services has been basically comatose for many years. etc. etc. That is more the yard stick should be measuring against. Not Rosetta ( Transitive owned circa 2006 and IBM owned own. IBM bought the underyling tech in 2009 and put it on a path that was divergent from Apple's main focus. Plus IBM wasn't going to get browbeat on licensing terms as a "small company" with limited resources. )

Similarly, dropping the Intel systems is likely going to take longer this time because the installed base inertia is much higher now ( 100+ Million Intel Macs out there and most of them aren't going away any time soon.).




Also how will the first generation of Apple Mac SoC fare? I remember the first gen Core Duo was not supported that long by Apple and shortly after everything required at least the Core 2 Duo. Will the 2nd gen of Apple Mac SoC quickly make the 1st gen obsolete? This is basically a how will the early adopters fare?

some of that was getting caught up in the 32-bit support. There were Core Solo Macs too ( that didn't even have a 64 options).

This first set is not going to run into any 32-bit legacy stuff as Apple basically has chunked that out the windows the year before the transition regardless of instruction set. Apple has flushed substantially more stuff beforehand this time. [ Pretty ggod chance have worked on the transition process longer. But will transition a bit slower as Apple doesn't have a complete line up of processors to transition to. Laptop space ? yes. High end desktop? No. ]

Also as an aside Craig mentioned a new virtualisation app. Do you think we'll be able to virtualise other OS there like older Mac OS versions and Windows there also? I ask this because many people use bootcamp on a daily basis for native Windows on their Mac. A move to Apple SoC I think would kill bootcamp.

Supported (by Apple) older Mac OS versions. Very likely not. Someone comes up with spit-and-bailing wire-and-ducktape macOS x86 on QEMU probably will pop up ( https://wiki.qemu.org/Hosts/Mac ). Similar to Sheepshaver for running old mac OS 9 images. IMHO seems doubtful anyone like VMWare or Parallels is going to bother with it.

Probably dead. If there is no UEFI on the new Apple Silicon Macs ... then even more highly probably dead. Apple has walked away from very small user constituencies in the past.

These questions are making me put off the iMac purchase I was considering. I feel there's almost no point purchasing any intel Mac at this point in time. Still I feel these questions are really important to consider.

If booting 'raw' into Windows is some deep seated, hefty (performance and/or quirky compatibility I/O port ) requirement then buying an Intel Mac probably should be considered now if have substantive needs now. That ability is likely going away.


The length of time of the Intel->ARM transition probably is not going to be the same timeline as the PPC->intel one. Intel had a full line up of processors if Apple came over or not. They had one before Apple came, during when Apple used them ,and will still have one after Apple leaves. Apple doesn't. It is going to take Apple much more time to roll out a complete line up. And until they do that will extend the time that they'll have to actively support x86-64 macOS. Throw on top the inertia is much larger now and that also likely leads to an more extended time line. And the cherry on top is that Apple gets money very services ( subscription software whether on Intel or ARM mac. ) . Apple of 2020 doesn't get its money from the same places as Apple of 2005-6.

The folks talking "complete doom" for Intel macOS in three years are pretty likely wrong. It isn't going to be 10 years because even if there was zero instruction set transition don't get 10 years anyway. 4-5 years from now is likely range of last macOS and useful working lifetime after that is longer ( unless have super requirement for most bleeding edge macOS).
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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According to Wikipedia Apple announced transition to Intel in 2005 and released Mac OS X v10.6 "Snow Leopard" on August 28, 2009 as Intel-only, removing support for the PowerPC architecture. It is also the last Mac OS X version that supports PowerPC-based applications,[4] as Mac OS X v10.7 "Lion" dropped support for Rosetta on July 20, 2011."

2009 was also the year IBM bought the technology that was Rosetta. Apple didn't own it.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
I have my doubts that Arm will be fast enough to compete with a 28 core 56 thread Xeon before 18-24 months.

Apple is far more slacking in the I/O subsystem department than in cores. Competing with a 2018-19 28 core Xeon W 3000 series wouldn't be that hard in very early 2022. A large chunk of the is effort priority. The more pressing problem for Apple is whether they could drive 8 PCI-e slots with I/O, quad digit GB of RAM capacity with ECC , and still have have an equally as balanced SoC with probably an internal/integrated small-medium GPU .

It isn't the processors of the past, it would be the 2022 era processors in the x86-64 (AMD and Intel) space that Apple would have more trouble with ( Xeon branding is a largely artificial restriction) .

It is also where Apple has been willing to put effort. The 6 year gulf between Mac Pro 2013 and 2019 is telling as to what their priorities are. The iMac Pro came in 2017 and the Mac Pro 2019. A Mac Pro useful SoC will likely arrive late , because the Mac Pro systems have arrived "late' for the last decade. That just isn't likely going to change. Apple far more wants to do a laptop SoC than a desktop SoC.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Supporting Intel Macs certainly doesn't mean releasing new Intel Macs for two more years. If the transition is supposed to be over in 2022 they're going to release the last Intel Macs long before that. Like the last time I think we'll see the last Intel Macs be released next year.

At the point where Apple may not do any more new Intel Macs but that doesn't mean they'll do a new Apple Silicon one either. For the desktop line up Apple has largely has a "squat and extend" strategy of almost minimal effort. If Apple doesn't replace all of the Intel machines then the timeline Intel macOS support will just be extended. ( the de-support clock isn't going to start until Apple is finished. And pretty good chance that isn't going to be until sometime well into 2022 ).


Apple doesn't have a complete processor line up. The vast majority of the iPhone and iOS ( and TV and Speaker) products all run on "hand me down" processor. Apple has no track record of delivering a wide line up of processor concurrently to the market at all.

Pointing at the large Scrooge McDuck money pit they have is simply misdirection. That's one reason why they have a large money pit is that they have avoiding trying to build a wide array of processors.and maximized reusing "older stuff" through much of the line up.

2020-2022 isn't likely going to be line 2005-2006. Intel already had a full in line up for development before Apple even jumped on board. Intel also dd substantial amount of the work to get Mac Pro out the door. Mostly a reference board slapped into an Apple "container". Apple will have to do all the work themselves this time and into areas they have largely avoided ( high end I/O infrastructure support ).

Apple is just very likely to finish in the same less than 19 month timeline at all. There is lots more to do and Apple moves slower now. For many years Apple hasn't done a complete across the board line up refresh at all. Mac Mini and languished in limbo for years at a time. ( logging again now). iMac Pro ... about to go 3 years on. Mac Pro went into Rip van Winkle slumber for 6 years. etc. etc.

Could Apple squat on the iMac Pro for 5 years? Based on their firmly established track record, yes.
Could Apple squat on the Mac Pro for 3 years? More than easily on their track record.
Could Apple squat on the 2020 iMac for 12+ months? In their sleep on their track record.

They could probably cover the lower half of the iMac Pro space with an Apple Silicon iMac. They somewhat already are. And would only need to cover relatively limited single discrete GPU space to continue to do so with an Apple Silicon Mac.


Indeed on the contrary Nov 2022 could be the time they will release the last remaining AS Mac in the product line, like Mac Pro.

Nov 2022 is pretty late, but yes the Mac Pro is probably last. If there is a hold up that far it would be some other issue than the main SoC. ( like a 3rd party GPU card or something or for some macOS change so October timeline. ).
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
I doubt Apple makes much money from the Mac Pro. Not enough to justify designing different silicon just for the Mac Pro. But I doubt they will completely drop the product. A future Mac Pro will likely have the same 8 ARM cores that an iMac has, but only in a nicer box with upgradable RAM, SSD and GPUs.

Pretty good chance the iMac Pro doesn't disappear. The 27" iMac isn't the whole iMac line up. So the Mac Pro doesn't have to share with it only.

If Apple is out to "share" with the 27" iMac it is the 21-24" that is more likely doing the sharing. Another better candidate would be the Mini.

Apple makes money on the Mac Pro. They cranked the entry starting price up 100%. They don't sell in high volumes but the margins are bigger. So it probably is not a question of taking a loss just whether it is a priority product or not. The Mac Pro probably doesn't move the top line revenue needle much ( or the profit needle) as much as other Mac Products. So it probably isn't a high priority product.

Since the Mac Pro SoC will probably be a bigger, relatively more expensive die ( or more incrementally more expensive dies ) it will probably be rolled out on mature fab processes behind the bleeding edge that the A-series is on.
Apple will want to do it later if the fab maturity cycle. And also very likely not as often either. ( the A-series X variants of late have only come on process shrinks, even number models. ). So about every 2 years. The Mac Pro SoC would likely be on an even slower release cycle. So there should be a big hurry for Apple to flip it because it isn't going anywhere any time soon after they do.




They will still call it a "Mac Pro" but the CPU cores will be the same as iMac's or the larger Macbooks. The "Pro" will be faster than iMac because of the better GPUs, more RAM, and better cooling.

It can't be the same. Mac Pro supports 8 PCI-e slots. The others about 1 . The pin outs ont he package are going to be substantially larger which will lead to a much bigger package. The imagery of going to get the same SoC slapped into an I/O gap that wide is just way off . They can't.

THe only way they could is if Apple retreated back to the Mac Pro 2013 form factor. At that point most current Mac Pro customers would tell you that you don't have a 'real' Mac Pro anymore.
 

Homy

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2006
2,502
2,453
Sweden
(2) Apple Silicon is not ARM. It contains ARM cores but has quite a lot more. So generic ARM chips are not usable in Apple Macs.

I think we all know that we are talking about AS but since you yourself used the term ARM from the beginning about "Mac Pro with 8 ARM cores like an iMac" I kept using it too. So no, they're not constrained by ARM or AS as we know. If Fujitsu can have 48 cores on an ARM chip Apple surely could have 48 cores on an AS chip if they wanted too.
 
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