How much do you think the Mac Pro 2019 will be?

[danwells]

They are in a HUGE feud with NVidia/alliance with AMD, and they insist on pushing video out over TB3 ports from the motherboard (even the trashcan with its theoretically replaceable GPUs had the output sent over motherboard Thunderbolt ports), not random ports located on the back of the GPU... I'd be enormously surprised to find a double height PCIe x16 slot just waiting for people to stick a GeForce in...

Replaceable graphics seems reasonably likely, but they'll do something nonstandard with the interface to force everybody to buy graphics upgrades from Apple (various options, all AMD). There may be a second proprietary graphics slot, giving the option of dual GPUs.

There might be a GeForce-proof PCIe slot for non-GPU cards (probably x4, or no auxiliary power, or half-length - if not more than one of the above).

CPU socket(s) and RAM will be standard - no guarantees they'll be easily accessible, though, especially the CPU socket(s). RAM certainly should be unless Apple has REALLY screwed up.

SSDs will be interesting to see - there will be at least one driven off T2 or T3 (boot disk), but they could go multiple ways from there. There could be only one logical drive (physically, it's likely to be a RAID), which is the T2 driven boot disk. They could provide extra slots for proprietary T2 driven SSDs, either as options at purchase, or as an option they can install later on (at an Apple Store). They could provide standard M.2 slots that won't boot (you have to boot from the Apple disk, but you can put other PCIe SSDs in for data.

The major expansion option will be a big batch of TB3 ports, along with at least one 10 GB Ethernet port...

 

[edgerider]

They are in a HUGE feud with NVidia/alliance with AMD, and they insist on pushing video out over TB3 ports from the motherboard (even the trashcan with its theoretically replaceable GPUs had the output sent over motherboard Thunderbolt ports), not random ports located on the back of the GPU... I'd be enormously surprised to find a double height PCIe x16 slot just waiting for people to stick a GeForce in...

once again the computer you describe would be a « mac gamer » or a « gamer pro » they already have the mac mini at this standpoint.

you obviously don’t really work with a macpro as a workhorse....

almost any professional card is X4 or X8 or x16....

and pcie ssd already hit the pcie x4 gen 3 celling.

people who want the chessegrater back want a internal 16x pcie slot machine or at least a machine that can connect to an external chassis by x16 pcie.

any single cpu xeon scalable is 46 lanes on top of northbridge ...

so you would need to put 6 alpine ridge controler and 12 thunderbolt port to match the expension capacity of 4 pcie slot or 4 EPCIE port.

think about usbc and the ditch of proprietary lighting connector...

that is why i deeply think that they could come up with a proprietary e-PCIE connector to lock the expension business, and keep the machine silent and with a cheep psu.

as soon as you put pcie slot now they have to be double width, and you have to have a 2x8 pcie power plug to be able to power cards up to 300w

a scalable xeon is 150w

a 4 slot double width pcie machine with twin xeon and over 500gb of memory make you looking at a servergrade 1800w psu... this is aint cheap, nor quiet.

they probably will put 2 double width slot and 2 regular slot like most computer that is 900w which by now aday standard is more easy...

after all a cheesgrater with 2 double width slot and two single slot, and 4 thunderbolt port would be cool...

 

[mattspace]

the thing i keep seeing here is people speculating on what a « mac gamer » would be? we are talking about a pro machine, not a i9 with a gtx 1070 watercooling and rvb led flashing...

The machine you're describing is (or at least with an upgrade to the GPU, is for certain tasks) a pro machine (minus the RGB lighting which noone has ever suggested is something Apple needs to be factory installing). i9, with Nvidia graphics and liquid cooling for cpu and / or gpu is a very normal "pro" configuration.

not that it would not be a powerful machine , but there is already a machine doing this : the mac mini.

The Mac Mini is not the equivalent of an i9 machine with a dedicated GPU in a motherboard PCI slot. It is a more expensive way, to get less utility, unless there is a specialised requirement for minimum footprint, and the workload is within its off-the-shelf capabilities.

 

[jscipione]

We like to speculate about the crazy technology Apple might use but at the end if the day Apple doesn't do much to surprise us anymore. Somebody above said that the CPU and RAM will be socketed because Intel doesn't make soldered Xeons and that is probably right, they'll use whatever comes off as the shelf. The Apple Watch has a square display not circular Apple will go down the path of least resistance, they days where they might innovate in some way that would surprise us are dead.

 

[edgerider]

[QUOTE="mattspace, post: 26947200, member: 819446"



The Mac Mini is not the equivalent of an i9 machine with a dedicated GPU in a motherboard PCI slot. It is a more expensive way, to get less utility, unless there is a specialised requirement for minimum footprint, and the workload is within its off-the-shelf capabilities.[/QUOTE]

hi there!

no i didnt explain myself properly :
they already have a « lowcost » machine : the mac mini, and a mid range machine comparable to a I9 gaming machine : the imac pro.

they cant really canibalise their own lineup. things have to overlap a bit but never in a way that you cant decide your priorities in the ecosystem.

I deeply think they have to adress the twin cpu « pro »market with onboard expension slot...

the same machine has to be able to go for 2990€ and be somhow rackable, with pcie ful lenght/full height pcie slot event if they only do one slot.
everything with 4x can go trough thunderbolt it is just easier...
once the machine has 4 or 6 T3 port, and 10gbe natively, there will be no need for x4 slot... the two only appliance that really need x8 is over 10gb networking and raid card, and x16 is only needed for gpu...

I have several X16 pcie expension chassis with integrated switch, and never happened to run out of bandwith..

even a titanXp gpu run just fine on a X8 slot...

they could realy blow the market if they come up with just a box and 4 EpcieX16 expension port on a proprietary connector... a sort of « super thunderbolt » but without thebulk of true pcie X16 cable and connectors that are very hard to work with and very expensive !

I went that way because I dont need 4 gpu and my 24 bay raid aray all the time
so i kind of like to have a separate chassis with expension but only if it is X16...

 

[deconstruct60]

I deeply think they have to adress the twin cpu « pro »market with onboard expension slot...

Have to? The Mac division of Apple is going to catastrophically implode if they don't do a twin CPU box with generic slot(s)? Errrr... it hasn't over the last 6 years so what has suddenly and/or recently changed?

Where is this deep, quantitatively grounded and based truth driving this? "I want it" isn't 'deep'.
Dell/HP does it so Apple "Have to"/"Has to" ... that too isn't 'deep'.


The twin CPU package configurations in the 2009-2012 Mac Pro had principle effects on system configuration. One, was 4 more DIMM slots. Apple could simply add the 4 more DIMM slots to all configurations of the next Mac Pro. The second CPU package is simply not absolutely required at all. There is no "have to" / "has to" there at all.

Second, in the 2009-2012 era the only way into the 8-12 core count was via two CPU packages. Now the iMac Pro sits at 18. There are incrementally cheaper paths to 18 by trading off clock speed, but for the price insensitive that won't be a "have to" factor. The path to 8-10 core isn't significantly better with dual packages if looking at reasonable single user workstation clocks. Have "insatiable" core count needs? The GPUs have 1,000's now versus 2012 era.
When Intel gets back on the process shrink path again the core will probably bump up in the single package solutions. If Apple switched over the AMD there'd be no stall this year at all if timed correctly.


The general trend in the market is that fewer CPU packages are sufficient.
"... When I spoke to a large server OEM last year, they said quad socket and eight socket systems are becoming rarer and rarer as each CPU by itself has more cores the need for systems that big just doesn't exist anymore. Back in the days pre-Nehalem, the big eight socket 32-core servers were all the rage, but today not so much, and unless a company is willing to spend $250k+ (before support contracts or DRAM/NAND) on a single 8-socket system, it’s reserved for the big players in town. Today, those are the cloud providers. ..."
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1352...x86-datacenter-class-machines-running-windows

Essentially, there is an increasingly narrower set of folks who need to go multiple CPU package. The market exists but it isn't exhibiting broad spectrum growth. Fewer people at higher prices with relatively small number of vendors. Apple doesn't "have to" chase after the narrowest of niches at shrinking volumes.

The "have to" question isn't whether Apple wouldn't leave out some corner cases if they don't have twin CPU packages, the more relevant question is whether they'd be leaving out most or a significantly high enough to be a problem number? Additionally, "have to" questions are different by relative differences in growth that different market subsegments grow. If the e two CPU package market was growing 30% faster than the single CPU package market then there is possibility that Apple would "have to" get into the two package market. if those are reverse, they extremely likely should not get into that market.

What an individual user wants to buy that Apple doesn't make is never an Apple "have to".

once the machine has 4 or 6 T3 port, and 10gbe natively, there will be no need for x4 slot... the two only appliance that really need x8 is over 10gb networking and raid card, and x16 is only needed for gpu...

generic physical PCI-e x4 slot isn't the only potential internal need. An x4 M.2 slot would be useful and not necessarily equivalent with Thunderbolt. Apple drifting in the dogma that one (and only one) internal storage drive is good for the desktop Pro machines would be a huge stretch. The number of deployed Mac Pros pre 2013 models with just one internal storage device is probably not a super majority of instances ( pretty good chance it is actually in the minority; "less than half").

The MP 2013 had an empty pad on the compute GPU where a second SSD could have gone. The iMac Pro could switch to a single NAND for the T2 ( e.g., NAND densities go up and can do 8TB on a single card) and Apple could use the space for that second NAND chip host card for an independent M.2 hooked to the underutilized x4 on the CPU package.

The Mac Pro in the only a single storage drive zone is in the camp of "A Bridge too Far". Several aspects are reasonably motivated, but has some significant problems with pragmatism in execution in tactical context. All the more so since Apple seems internally conflicted about "only SSD are the future" and "SSDs are ripe for goosing the mark up margin dramatically higher". Putting in a 2nd SSD slot would help the first group negate some of the second group quest's bad outcomes.

Also if Apple only puts on one 10Gb/E socket on the next Mac Pro and there is internal volume (not shooting for literal desktop solution) then a x4 slot could be provisioned off the same x4 that the ethernet controller is on. 10Gb/E only really needs about x2 PCI-e v3. So like the current 2009-2012 could share pragmatically two x4 "slot" consumers on one x4 provision and a large number of folks won't notice. ( Mac Pro still could have two Ethernet ports just one 1Gb/e hanging off the PCH. For example, "out of the box" support for one port for SAN/NAS network and one port for general Internet 'stuff'. ). Folks who needed dual 10Gb/E could put in an card. [ Apple loves symmetry though so decent change will hardwire up two 10Gb/E so there is no difference between the ports presented to the user and can be closely co-located. ] and just one default 10Gb/E would help slightly with keeping the costs from increasing.

 

[edgerider]

8k broadcast is around the corner, and a 18 core imac struggle to handle this...

 

[fastlanephil]

I think the next Mac Pro base model could be reasonably priced at around the $3000 price range. The devil, as always, is going to be in the upgrade details.

 

[turbineseaplane]

It'll probably be so expensive that it will make the wait for it pointless for all but the most specialized of users where money is simply no object or hindrance to their needs and/or desires.

 

[edgerider]

I think the next Mac Pro base model could be reasonably priced at around the $3000 price range. The devil, as always, is going to be in the upgrade details.

yes I think you are right!
they could perfectly come up with proprietary expension box/plug.

 

[mattspace]

yes I think you are right!
they could perfectly come up with proprietary expension box/plug.

put x16 pci slots as plugs on the back of the machine, connected by a pci-extender cables to an external boxes that have the actual slots in them. That way, you avoid the lane-strangulation of thunderbolt, but offload the power supply demands to be Someone Else's Problem.

 

[edgerider]

put x16 pci slots as plugs on the back of the machine, connected by a pci-extender cables to an external boxes that have the actual slots in them. That way, you avoid the lane-strangulation of thunderbolt, but offload the power supply demands to be Someone Else's Problem.

yes totaly!
I own several 16x expender from cyclone and it is by far the way to go.

not all of us have the same needs, expension wise ... and once you have try a 10 slot x16 expender, trust me you dont want anything else!!!!

the truth is that most of us wont need 100% of all their cards all the time, but it is a pain in the ass to plug/unplug the card in the machine...

i use my macpro alone with the gtx780 and the sm951 on light duty job, but if i need umpfff, I just need to trun the mac off, flick a switch reboot and voila : 4 teslak20x gpu, an anfeltec squid with 4sm951, and a 24 bay 48 tb sas raid aray to help!

pcie x16 external with easy cabling on a smaller plug would be a dream...

basically they « just need » to bond 4 thunderbolt pcie portion of thunderbolt cable in one plug and one cable ....

if a 16 to 4x4 pcie switch cost less than 200€ and if netstor can do x16 gpu expension with 5 gpu for les than 2000€,
apple could come with a standard to democratise x16 expension enclosure.

those extension box are expensive because the amphenol cable and connector are very expensive...
just a 6 foot cable is 400€

 

[pers0n]

We like to speculate about the crazy technology Apple might use but at the end if the day Apple doesn't do much to surprise us anymore. ... they days where they might innovate in some way that would surprise us are dead.

When it comes to a real pro machine, this is probably best. A pro machine needs to be more standard and upgradable.

 

[turbineseaplane]

When it comes to a real pro machine, this is probably best. A pro machine needs to be more standard and upgradable.

Totally agree...

For those users and contexts, they should have just released a new, slightly trimmed down, Mac Pro tower again and moved on.

I'm worried they are "innovating" too much, yet again.
I just can't figure out what else would take so bloody long.

 

[Joe The Dragon]

Totally agree...

For those users and contexts, they should have just released a new, slightly trimmed down, Mac Pro tower again and moved on.

I'm worried they are "innovating" too much, yet again.
I just can't figure out what else would take so bloody long.

well the old tower was a bit of an hold over from the old G5's.

Still dell and hp have workstations with rolling hardware changes. Apples one a year or more changes does not fit the workstation market.

Maybe they want to back to clones with an hardware TX card???

 

[sonofsnak]

I would love to see a return to the good old days (remember the $1299 Power Mac G4?) but given Apple of late, it wouldn't surprise me to see $3500+

Adjusting for inflation, it would still only be $1,982 today.

 

[fuchsdh]

The $1299 PowerMac G4 was incredibly outclassed by its competition.l, and was totally obsolete in months. Its price was an aberration, considering for most of its life the price was $1599 or higher.

 

[AidenShaw]

Still dell and hp have workstations with rolling hardware changes. Apples one a year or more changes does not fit the workstation market.

Apple doesn't do "one a year" updates for workstations.

They're on the "maybe every six years" plan.

 

[turbineseaplane]

They're on the "maybe every six years" plan.

lol - yep
and even then it's really only "mayyybe"