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How will Apple gimp the mini with Haswell?

paulrbeers said:
While I appreciate your opinion, why do you believe the HD4600 will NOT be in the Mac Mini? All you state is that Apple will want to make the Mini inadequate?

Right now, all Haswell processors that I am aware of will come with the HD4600. Sure by the time the Mini is released the GT1 and GT3's will be out, but look at Ivy Bridge. The HD2500 based processors were out but Apple still chose to go with the HD4000 based processors did they not? You said, you did research, so I'm just interested to know what research made you come to the conclusion that they will be GT1 processors?
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Sorry, I put in the word "not" when it should not have been in there.

Sure. As soon as apple could remove the discrete graphic from the mini, they did. Prior to that, they made sure the graphics in the mini paled in comparison to the iMac. The last two iterations of the mini could not hold a candle to the iMac with respect to graphics, do to the lack of discrete graphics. Thus, apple pushed you to the iMac if you wanted to do any intensive graphics applications *cough* gaming *cough*.

When it comes to Haswell, there are really only two option for non-discrete graphics - GT2/HD 4600 and GT3. GT2 is an iterative progression, like 3000->4000. GT3 is supposed to be a large jump forward in performance. Given Apple's desire to make the mini NOT as compelling as the iMac, the GT3 will not appear in the mini, or will be a BIG$$$ upgrade option on the 1st release of Haswell chips - IMHO.

Given apple's desire to make everything paper thin, even though there is no obvious benefit(new iMac design), a Mini that can have it's RAM upgraded, HDD upgraded, and with a GPU like GT3 for under $999, would be a compelling machine. It would be an amazing machine I would buy in a heartbeat. Thus, it will never happen.

Apple does not want that to happen. Don't believe me? Look at the history of the GPU in the mini. It says it all with respect to what Apple wants the mini to be.
 
Count Blah said:
Sorry, I put in the word "not" when it should not have been in there.

Sure. As soon as apple could remove the discrete graphic from the mini, they did. Prior to that, they made sure the graphics in the mini paled in comparison to the iMac. The last two iterations of the mini could not hold a candle to the iMac with respect to graphics, do to the lack of discrete graphics. Thus, apple pushed you to the iMac if you wanted to do any intensive graphics applications *cough* gaming *cough*.

When it comes to Haswell, there are really only two option for non-discrete graphics - GT2/HD 4600 and GT3. GT2 is an iterative progression, like 3000->4000. GT3 is supposed to be a large jump forward in performance. Given Apple's desire to make the mini NOT as compelling as the iMac, the GT3 will not appear in the mini, or will be a BIG$$$ upgrade option on the 1st release of Haswell chips - IMHO.

Given apple's desire to make everything paper thin, even though there is no obvious benefit(new iMac design), a Mini that can have it's RAM upgraded, HDD upgraded, and with a GPU like GT3 for under $999, would be a compelling machine. It would be an amazing machine I would buy in a heartbeat. Thus, it will never happen.

Apple does not want that to happen. Don't believe me? Look at the history of the GPU in the mini. It says it all with respect to what Apple wants the mini to be.
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The Mac Mini is an "entry level" computer. It's not designed for gaming. Comparing the Mac Mini to the iMac is silly. It's like saying Mercedes gimp the A class by not making it as fast as a C class, or to use a more common term - you're comparing apple's and oranges, and coming up with bananas.

You should be comparing it to the white macbook/macbook air - the entry level laptops. And, going over the history as you say, the Mac Mini has *always* had the same GPU that the baseline notebooks have had, or better in the case of the 6630M.
 
Count Blah said:
Sorry, I put in the word "not" when it should not have been in there.
.

Given apple's desire to make everything paper thin, even though there is no obvious benefit(new iMac design), a Mini that can have it's RAM upgraded, HDD upgraded, and with a GPU like GT3 for under $999, would be a compelling machine. It would be an amazing machine I would buy in a heartbeat. Thus, it will never happen.

Apple does not want that to happen. Don't believe me? Look at the history of the GPU in the mini. It says it all with respect to what Apple wants the mini to be.
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Okay that is much clearer. I thought you were implying that the Mini would have the GT1. I don't think any of us believes the Mini's will get the GT3. Would it be cool if we did? Sure. But I think we all believe that it will get the GT4600 which will be a decent GPU, but certainly nothing to write home about.

I personally haven't believed that we will ever see another discrete GPU in the Mini. The Mid-2011 with the 6630m was an aberration. I think it was simply added because the HD3000 wasn't up to snuff. The HD4000 was "good enough" so there was no need (in apple's view mind you) to add a discrete GPU in the 2012's. I think Intel has made some serious strides in their GPU's and I really do not see Apple throwing another discrete GPU in the Mini ever again (unless Intel decides to stop advancing their GPU which I don't see any time soon).

In the end the Mini is like all entry level computer, it's more than adequate for 80+% of the population and in a lot of ways is over kill for probably 70% (especially the High end Mini). Most of my family could get by for years with the Base Mini. Hardware is outdistancing what most would do with a computer anymore....
 
Ice Dragon said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haswell_(microarchitecture)

I would like to think both the i7-4800MQ and i7-4900MQ will have the GT3 graphics if either of them are used in the mini, no?

As for the iMac, that will probably have the next generation of nVidia mobile discrete graphics. 740M, 750M, etc.

I just want more memory for textures at the same price points.
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According to Wikipedia, the 4800 and 4900 are getting the HD4600 which is GT2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_HD_Graphics

I'll answer your wikipedia with one of my own.... :D
 
paulrbeers said:
According to Wikipedia, the 4800 and 4900 are getting the HD4600 which is GT2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_HD_Graphics

I'll answer your wikipedia with one of my own.... :D
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Thats a good one. yeah apple always shorted the minis graphics.

the hd4000 the hd 3000 and the 6630 were all decent for many but not all. some have a crushed white issue with the 4000 but frankly it varies from monitor to monitor.

I have grown to accept I have to own a pc for excellent graphics on a tv sized screen such as the 46 inch sony I am typing on today. this is being done with the quad 2012 16gb ram 1.5diy fusion most likely one of the best mac minis ever.

graphics meh. the rest A+. but as the op said to protect the iMac the mini graphics have to suffer.

now that mac pro sales are banned in most of europe. getting a great graphic performance on a large tv can't be done with a headless mac.

I see something just around the corner here.
 
Aren't they decreasing the clock speeds on the GT3, so won't the HD 4600 and GT2 be a good increase over the HD 4000?
 
Brian Y said:
The Mac Mini is an "entry level" computer. It's not designed for gaming. Comparing the Mac Mini to the iMac is silly. It's like saying Mercedes gimp the A class by not making it as fast as a C class, or to use a more common term - you're comparing apple's and oranges, and coming up with bananas.
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I disagree. Especially where are now in CPU/memory/GPU performance, next years entry-level is more than enough to cover a lot of needs. And I dont mean just for 80% of the population who do nothing beyond social media/email/etc. If the graphics races continue between Nvidia/Intel/AMD, then we should continue to see "entry level" graphics that suffice.
 
Ice Dragon said:
Aren't they decreasing the clock speeds on the GT3, so won't the HD 4600 and GT2 be a good increase over the HD 4000?
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the new haswell gpu should be pretty good. only gamers will suffer . well maybe 2 screen people. people that want it for a big tv may finally get a really good deal.

I can switch from the quad mini to a windows 7 i7 3770k with a hd7970 gpu one goes to my hdmi port 1 the other to hdmi port 4 on my sony.

the windows 7 is far better for netflix ,you tube hd images etc. it should be the gpu alone is a 425 dollar part. but the mini has gained year after year it is better if you use a 1080p tv. I am hoping the 4600 gets close enough for me to have the option for windows 7 not the need.
 
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I'm probably looking at the $799 mini coming up in summer or autumn then with the SSD option. If the setup is the same, I will max out the RAM to 16 GB.
 
can i ask an obvious, and possibly stupid question. are mini margins that much less than imac margins?

is it possible that with the lower specs apple puts into whats still not a cheap machine, that the margins are pretty decent?

i cant see them wanting to canabalise the machine too much as its got competition from cheap pc as much as imac.

ive always had a mac, for 20 years, my mini 2009 is my 5th mac,with some overlapping when i had a desktop and a laptop, and im thinking of replacing my mini with a 2012 mini. ive no intention of buying an imac. i have a monitor and i havent either the cash or desire to spend that cash on an imac. the competition for me is a cheap pc.
 
madeirabhoy said:
can i ask an obvious, and possibly stupid question. are mini margins that much less than imac margins?

is it possible that with the lower specs apple puts into whats still not a cheap machine, that the margins are pretty decent?

i cant see them wanting to canabalise the machine too much as its got competition from cheap pc as much as imac.

ive always had a mac, for 20 years, my mini 2009 is my 5th mac,with some overlapping when i had a desktop and a laptop, and im thinking of replacing my mini with a 2012 mini. ive no intention of buying an imac. i have a monitor and i havent either the cash or desire to spend that cash on an imac. the competition for me is a cheap pc.
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this is the mac mini's competition


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856158031R 4000 gpu


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856158033 real gpu


they do not sell that well or get great reviews. personally the one with the gpu looks okay


has a lessor cpu.

a blu-ray drive

the 7850m gpu.
 
madeirabhoy said:
can i ask an obvious, and possibly stupid question. are mini margins that much less than imac margins?
.
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In a lot of ways, it's impossible for us to say. Even if we looked at a bill of parts (which I have no idea how much a aluminum shell alone would cost nor what kind of bulk discount Apple would get on components) we still wouldn't have an idea of what Apple truly makes. Only the bean counters over at Apple can truly say what the margins are on a Mini compared to the iMacs. With that said, Let's say that Apple wants to early 20% on every Mac sold as profit. For a Base Mini that's only $120 compared to a Base iMac is $240. That's a lot more profit from an iMac than a Mini.
 
philipma1957 said:
this is the mac mini's competition


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856158031R 4000 gpu


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856158033 real gpu


they do not sell that well or get great reviews. personally the one with the gpu looks okay


has a lessor cpu.

a blu-ray drive

the 7850m gpu.
Click to expand...


well depends on the person. for me, the mini replaced a mirror door g4, its on a computer desk, i like the small size but its neither here nor there. i dont have the cash for a mac pro, so the thing about the mini for me is the price, not the size. if i went to a pc id almost certainly choose something entirely different to the mini to be honest. id be looking at a cheap but more powerful desktop machine with a decent graphics card. completely the opposite to a mini but then such a thing doesnt exist for mac at a decent price.
 
madeirabhoy said:
can i ask an obvious, and possibly stupid question. are mini margins that much less than imac margins?

is it possible that with the lower specs apple puts into whats still not a cheap machine, that the margins are pretty decent?

i cant see them wanting to canabalise the machine too much as its got competition from cheap pc as much as imac.

ive always had a mac, for 20 years, my mini 2009 is my 5th mac,with some overlapping when i had a desktop and a laptop, and im thinking of replacing my mini with a 2012 mini. ive no intention of buying an imac. i have a monitor and i havent either the cash or desire to spend that cash on an imac. the competition for me is a cheap pc.
Click to expand...
Apple does not release a product unless it can make a high margin on it. Apple is NOT a loss leader company. The mini is positioned to be a cheaper alternative to get into the OS X ecosystem. It's the cheap "1st hit" to get hooked.

The margin is king, so anything that will take away from a machine that sells for MORE is frowned upon. Your needs match perfectly with the mini, apparently. But what do you do if you had kids who liked to play games, or if you did some more graphic intensive tasks? Well step right up to the higher priced model. You can't get it in the mini. So the LAST thing Apple is going to do is make the mini an alternative to the iMac when it comes to graphics.

Now couple the new non-upgradable iMac with the expandability of Mini, and you have now made the mini a compelling alternative to the static iMac. That has to tighten some sphincters in Cupertino. So look for the mini to likewise get the upgradability hammer in some way. And there is no way, short of a BIG $$$ upgrade, will we see the G3 graphics available in the mini for a LONG time.

Upgradability and decent graphics in the mini compared to a static iMac? Not going to happen. Thus the original question - How is Apple going to gimp the Haswell mini?
 
What graphics chip do you think will be in Mac Mini 2013

I buy a Mac Mini every year but skipped 2012 due to the lame Intel Graphics. I read the rumors but I wonder if the graphics performance will at least match the 2011 model. Any rumors on that?

Count Blah said:
You know it will happen. We all know it will happen. The next mini refresh that will contain Haswell can NOT take sales away from the iMac. Keeping the graphics and/or CPU a generation or two behind the iMac has always the easy play for Apple.

But with Haswell, the present model potentially gets put on it's ear. I"m REALLY excited about the possibility, and would but a mini the day it's announced, if Apple releases what I want. But as we've all seen with the mini, it's not what WE want, it's what Apple can release so as not to cut into iMac/MBA/MBP sales.

Given all that, my prediction is that only the highest model gets Haswell, and even in that, they do NOT release GT3 on the 1st go-round. The lower models will contain i7's with slightly faster clock speeds. MAYBE, and only maybe, an increase in memory or disk space on the lower models.

It would fit right in line with what they have historically done, and would not eat into sales of other products. I hope I am wrong.

What do you think the Haswell mini will look like?
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donharper said:
I buy a Mac Mini every year but skipped 2012 due to the lame Intel Graphics. I read the rumors but I wonder if the graphics performance will at least match the 2011 model. Any rumors on that?
Click to expand...

The lowest 13" MBP with retina uses an i5 with only HD4000. So the Haswell mini running GT2/HD4600 should be a nice step ahead of that. You can research the differences between 3000/4000/4600 and see if it meets your requirements. I'm guessing that 4600 would be marginally acceptable.

As we get closer, you can take a look here for further details and comparisons - http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-4600.86106.0.html
 
I mentioned this before but the only game I want to really play is Gauntlet Dark Legacy via MAME. Should I be able to this via Haswell's integrated graphics in the mini whether it is GT2 or GT3 along with a quad-core processor?
 
Ice Dragon said:
I mentioned this before but the only game I want to really play is Gauntlet Dark Legacy via MAME. Should I be able to this via Haswell's integrated graphics in the mini whether it is GT2 or GT3 along with a quad-core processor?
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I have no idea what this is, but in searching, I see some folks with average gear running it just fine, and others with screaming gear, saying it's a dog.

So I'd not even begin to hazard a guess for you.
 
Paid around a thousand for an i7 2.6 mini with 16gb 3rd party ram that I'd probably have to spend more than 2k for an iMac or MBP for the same cpu power.

Screw that. Last time I spent 3k for a mac was a 7600 in 1996 money. Spending thousands today for something that 3 years later people start complaining how 'slow' it becomes is an absurdity.

However, a thousand bucks for one that'll still hold its own 3-5 years down the line is much more acceptable.
 
I can't see myself getting an iMac despite the discrete graphics because I like the setup I have now with the mini and my HDTV or if I wanted to get another monitor down the road.

In addition, I want full flash storage. I don't want to go back to any form of HDD even if Fusion is part SSD.
 
Suppose they could have added a 640M with the i7 quad-core processor, though they added only 256 MB of memory as with the 6630M. How well would that have worked out?
 
Ice Dragon said:
Suppose they could have added a 640M with the i7 quad-core processor, though they added only 256 MB of memory as with the 6630M. How well would that have worked out?
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the mini is not going to get a decent gpu. never has and never will.


the 6630 was okay.

they do not want the mini to be better then iMacs and macbookpros.

The haswell 4600 will most likely be the best graphics that have been in a mini. But the bar has never been high. If they squeezed in a really decent one it would hurt iMac sales.

A mini with a 650m and / or a 7850m with 1Gb ddr5 ram would be a great machine.

You would need the mini to be 1/2 inch taller with a better fan. Apple will never build this type of Machine.


Below is not a reality but just my belief. I would also believe this of most if not all large computer builders.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually believe that a 100% boycott of all desktop macs for 2 months (impossible ) would not convince apple to build it. (A killer mac mini with a good quad and a good gpu.)


The theory is Apple would not want to show the ability to be controlled and or dictated to by its customers.
 
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