OS X I am growing tired of Steam

[garnerx]

Remember that for consoles, discs are still required for those who want physical copies, even though, like on XBox One or PS4, the game is installed in its entirety on the hard drive.

They were going to get rid of that for Xbox One but the backlash was insane. Some people still haven't forgiven them for even thinking of it.

Essentially your disc would have been a single-use delivery system for the game data, and completely non-functional thereafter, so no trade-ins or second-hand sales unless the disc was "reactivated" at a licensed retailer, for a fee.

Steam doesn't even let you do that much. At least Origin lets you get a refund if you decide you don't want the game or it doesn't run well on your hardware.

 

[xSinghx]

I don't understand people's opposition to DRM, other than to simply dislike it in principle - which is your right to do so. But honestly, DRM has never stopped me from enjoying any of my games, whether they're locked to Steam, Origin, uPlay or any other service...

Diablo 3, Sim City, Watch Dogs (and more). DRM has impaired all of these games and their buyers from enjoying them.

What's not to understand? You are getting an inferior product/experience compared to a non-DRM product.

Do you show up and pay top dollar to watch a movie in a theater with terrible sound?

Do you buy DRM music?

Do you enjoy the idea of companies installing nefarious software that monitors your computer without disclosure to you? (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/30/ubisoft-respond-to-uplay-security-drama/)

To quote the guys at CD Projekt Red:

"...people hate complication. So, they either did not buy at all, or they pirated. Only when iTunes introduced a DRM-free solution did we really see digital music sales start to take off, and that’s what became the industry standard.

The games industry is slowly having that same realization, and I think that sooner rather than later we will see online-only games (where DRM makes no sense) and offline games with no DRM. We will eventually leave DRM behind."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danieln...he-truth-is-it-doesnt-work-cd-projekt-on-drm/

It seems pretty simple to understand, the only people that don't are the Pollyannas and corporate apologists. As I said before:

...the economic and social factors of their platform [Steam] will be the dog whistle that keeps most from running away.

Or questioning it I might add.

 

[gkarris]

They were going to get rid of that for Xbox One but the backlash was insane. Some people still haven't forgiven them for even thinking of it.

Essentially your disc would have been a single-use delivery system for the game data, and completely non-functional thereafter, so no trade-ins or second-hand sales unless the disc was "reactivated" at a licensed retailer, for a fee.

Steam doesn't even let you do that much. At least Origin lets you get a refund if you decide you don't want the game or it doesn't run well on your hardware.

The thing is - hard drive installation and online connectivity is STILL required for many games, even though you have a physical copy.

It would've been easier to swallow a disc-less console had they made download only games say, $40 instead of the same price at $60 for a physical copy you can eventually trade in for $20.

Discussed in other threads here, downloads which cost the same or more than a physical copy is just not worth it.

 

[Renzatic]

For all the rallying against Steam around here, you all need to keep in mind that it's DRM scheme is an entirely optional choice developer can decide to use or not, and one of the least intrusive forms of it on the market today.

Now I have no love for DRM schemes, especially when they punish me by preventing me from playing a game I paid good money for. But Steam has never given me any problems whatsoever in all the years I've used it.

Do I use it exclusively? No. I buy tons of games from GOG as well, and even the Humble Store on occasion. But I do use it quite a bit, because the deals are good, and it does exactly what its supposed to do.

 

[Dirtyharry50]

Too late.

For some stuff, yes. But I only have so much time so I can live without that stuff.

If anything, I'd really like to combine gaming on my iMac with gaming on the couch with a PS4. That is plenty to keep me occupied and while I will not have access to every title under the sun, I will have more than enough to keep me happy.

It is very nice to see games like Pillars of Eternity, Divinity and some other major titles appearing on the MAS. I'm also very pleased the Infinity engine remakes released there. I own all three released so far on MAS. Those five RPGs alone not to mention all the stuff by Feral and Aspyr that I like is tons of great stuff to play.

I really don't need Steam. If anything, I would be better off without it actually. Like very many users there, I have far too often fallen prey to the seasonal sales and bought all kinds of stuff I will never have time for. I would do well for myself to remove such temptation. Yes, I am weak in that sense. I admit it but as they say, admitting it is the first step on the road to recovery.

 

[malman89]

Yeah, they have great sales, but how much money am I really saving, buying (more) games I'm going to play very little, if at all.

Darn Steam (or Steam Sales & Marketing) for tricking me into spending more money! Shame on them! They're awful!

You're responsible for your own purchases. I've found games on Steam for sale cheaper than during those mad rush sales and I only buy what I want to play. Did you guys hear about the upcoming Uber Tuesday Sale? Once in a lifetime, super uber deals!

 

[Renzatic]

Darn Steam (or Steam Sales & Marketing) for tricking me into spending more money! Shame on them! They're awful!

You're responsible for your own purchases. I've found games on Steam for sale cheaper than during those mad rush sales and I only buy what I want to play. Did you guys hear about the upcoming Uber Tuesday Sale? Once in a lifetime, super uber deals!

This is what I'm thinking. I can think of a few legitimate reasons not to like Steam, but buying too much during one of its sales isn't one of them.

You know how many games I get during a sale? Usually one. Three at the very most. More often than not, they're games I already wanted to play, not just something I grabbed because it was 70% off.

If someone finds themselves buying too much, that's entirely their own fault.

 

[Dirtyharry50]

I thought you were going to talk about their recent drive to monetize even more, in ways that just aren't good ideas.

It's just another nail in the coffin from my perspective.

If people want to develop high quality mods that qualify as stand-alone games such as Counter-Strike or Day of Defeat fine. Those justify a price tag but if people are really going to pay for half-baked home made dlc that will wind up being a huge garbage pile from which perhaps a few gems will emerge, good luck to them.

Good luck to them too when the game proper receives an update that breaks the mods they paid for which are not refundable even if they are broken days later by a patch.

No thank you.

 

[Renzatic]

It's just another nail in the coffin from my perspective.

If people want to develop high quality mods that qualify as stand-alone games such as Counter-Strike or Day of Defeat fine. Those justify a price tag but if people are really going to pay for half-baked home made dlc that will wind up being a huge garbage pile from which perhaps a few gems will emerge, good luck to them.

That's not Steam's fault, either. They're merely providing the option to do so, entirely at the original game developer's behest. They're not making it a requirement in any way. The worst you could say about it is that Valve might be spreading themselves a little too thin with all the various options they're offering.

If a mod is terrible, or asks too high a price for what's basically glorified horse armor, then the community will weed it out. Good ones will sell. Bad ones won't. Steam and the developers will get a small cut alongside the modder who might've spent a few hundred hours of their time creating it.

Good luck to them too when the game proper receives an update that breaks the mods they paid for which are not refundable even if they are broken days later by a patch.

No thank you.

Most games that rely on mods usually try their damnest not to break compatibility.

Though if there is one thing I wish Steam would do, it would be to offer refunds on games within a specified amount of time. There have been a few times I wish I could've used it, and GOG's already doing it. They should join in on that action.

 

[Dirtyharry50]

For all the rallying against Steam around here, you all need to keep in mind that it's DRM scheme is an entirely optional choice developer can decide to use or not, and one of the least intrusive forms of it on the market today.

Now I have no love for DRM schemes, especially when they punish me by preventing me from playing a game I paid good money for. But Steam has never given me any problems whatsoever in all the years I've used it.

Do I use it exclusively? No. I buy tons of games from GOG as well, and even the Humble Store on occasion. But I do use it quite a bit, because the deals are good, and it does exactly what its supposed to do.

I'm curious. You have never had one single issue with the Mac client? I ask because I have seen plenty of bugs in it, reproducible, years old in some cases, bugs. Have you ever tried going through the daily queue, clicking to look at a particular game's page and then using the back button? Most times, it might even be every time, this fails in my experience with a page not found error. Ever tried clicking a link on a forum to read something, view a graphic or download a fix or whatnot and then return to the page after closing your browser? The first click on the Steam client will immediately fire up your browser to the link you already just visited. Only when you close it again does it register with Steam that the link isn't selected anymore. I showed a problem in the OP. I could come up with more but I think this makes the point. The problems are real.

I'm glad you haven't seen them but they are there. Maybe you use the windows client and this stuff isn't broken there.

Also, while a DRM vs no DRM conversation has arisen here naturally enough I myself didn't complain about it in the OP. So Steam's DRM isn't really the thrust of topic here. It isn't about Steam is bad because Steam DRM is bad, just to clarify. In my own experience, Steam's DRM is one thing I haven't had problems with.

That said, the DRM on top of DRM I have only seen there is something I detest.

 

[Renzatic]

I'm curious. You have never had one single issue with the Mac client? I ask because I have seen plenty of bugs in it, reproducible, years old in some cases, bugs. Have you ever tried going through the daily queue, clicking to look at a particular game's page and then using the back button? Most times, it might even be every time, this fails in my experience with a page not found error. Ever tried clicking a link on a forum to read something, view a graphic or download a fix or whatnot and then return to the page after closing your browser? The first click on the Steam client will immediately fire up your browser to the link you already just visited. Only when you close it again does it register with Steam that the link isn't selected anymore. I showed a problem in the OP. I could come up with more but I think this makes the point. The problems are real.

I'm glad you haven't seen them but they are there. Maybe you use the windows client and this stuff isn't broken there.

Well, uh...dirty secret time. I have an iPhone and iPad, but not a Mac. So yeah, I run Steam primarily on Windows and Linux.

I have heard a lot of people complain that the Mac client is an absolute train wreck. Here at least, I can understand some animosity towards Valve over their lackluster support. Especially when you consider the Windows and Linux clients run nigh flawlessly.

As for DRM. I don't love it, but Steam at least makes it entirely transparent invisible, and headache free. I can't say the same thing about EA, Rockstar, or...gawww, Ubisoft. Plus, it's not an absolute requirement for publishing on Steam. It's an option developers use, and nasty though it is, it's one of the major reason why some of the bigger studios publish their games to the service.

 

[Dirtyharry50]

Darn Steam (or Steam Sales & Marketing) for tricking me into spending more money! Shame on them! They're awful!

You're responsible for your own purchases. I've found games on Steam for sale cheaper than during those mad rush sales and I only buy what I want to play. Did you guys hear about the upcoming Uber Tuesday Sale? Once in a lifetime, super uber deals!

While this is surely true, removing the source of temptation can be helpful.

----------

Steam and the developers will get a small cut...

They will? Do you call 75% a small cut? Of that 75% the amount that goes to the primary game's developer will vary by an undisclosed amount. Steam only revealed that in all cases, they take 75% off the top and the mod maker gets 25%.

They also revealed that mods will not be refundable.

This does mean that if the primary game is updated in some way, it will fall to the mod makers to fix their mods although they won't be under any real obligation to do so as the money will have already permanently and irrevocably changed hands.

These rules have been set down by management at Valve.

So, what was that about Steam being blameless yet again?

No need to take my word for any of this. You can read all about it on Steam's site.

 

[Renzatic]

They will? Do you call 75% a small cut? Of that 75% the amount to goes to the primary game's developer will vary by an undisclosed amount. Steam only revealed that in all cases, they take 75% off the top and the mod maker gets 25%.

Whoa. I didn't know it was that much. Though it'll probably be more like the developers 10-15%, since Valve will take a cut from the transaction.

Though it used to be nothing, and it's still entirely optional, both for the developers, and the people making the mods. I just don't see this as a bad thing. At worst, I'm entirely ambivalent about it.

They also revealed that mods will not be refundable.

This does mean that if the primary game is updated in some way, it will fall to the mod makers to fix their mods although they won't be under any real obligation to do so as the money will have already permanently and irrevocably changed hands.

These rules have been set down by management at Valve.

I'll say this. If it's a source of income for developers, who are getting 75% off a modders hard work, they're probably gonna make damn sure to maintain backwards compatibility for the sake of keeping that sweet, sweet cash flow going.

So, what was that about Steam being blameless yet again?

No need to take my word for any of this. You can read all about it on Steam's site.

I don't know what to blame them for. They're not forcing anything on anyone.

Also, Valve is offering refunds through the workshop, though only for the first 24 hours. It's a little bit too tiny of a window, maybe. But it's there.

 

[Dirtyharry50]

Well, uh...dirty secret time. I have an iPhone and iPad, but not a Mac. So yeah, I run Steam primarily on Windows and Linux.

I have heard a lot of people complain that the Mac client is an absolute train wreck. Here at least, I can understand some animosity towards Valve over their lackluster support. Especially when you consider the Windows and Linux clients run nigh flawlessly.

As for DRM. I don't love it, but Steam at least makes it entirely transparent invisible, and headache free. I can't say the same thing about EA, Rockstar, or...gawww, Ubisoft. Plus, it's not an absolute requirement for publishing on Steam. It's an option developers use, and nasty though it is, it's one of the major reason why some of the bigger studios publish their games to the service.

That's funny but I do appreciate your honesty. I wonder why a Mac gaming forum would be of interest to you but who am I to tell you what to be interested in?

I prefer DRM free but I am okay with it when it is invisible to me preferably. So Steam was okay there. The App Store is okay there. GOG, Humble or MGS I notice for some stuff is better still though for the games with zero DRM. I have no complaints about Origin really in limited experience but the Mac selection is abysmal and so is my interest there as such.

The App Store, GOG, Humble and MGS in no particular order are the likely sources for me going forward. A lot will just depend on who has what and at what price.

Steam has become a real mess, a huge bargain bin populated with a lot more junk that quality and an annoying buggy client they don't seem interested in fixing. So why would I want to shop there versus elsewhere? What compelling reason would I have? XYZ game is only there? Oh, well. I am pretty far behind anyway. I'll live.

----------

I'll say this. If it's a source of income for developers, who are getting 75% off a modders hard work...

They aren't getting 75%. Valve is taking 75% the top and some undisclosed split happens after that which probably varies from game to game. Some games can command a higher margin than others so sometimes Valve will have to share more of the cut and other times less. Presumably the game developer is going to be getting the higher percentage here but it is a fairly safe bet Valve will be getting a 20% to 30% margin on the deal.

I do not think the developers can really code bug fixes, improvements, content additions, etc. around mod makers. I think it is going to fall to them to fix their mods but I am no soothsayer either. We'll see how it all plays out soon enough.

 

[Renzatic]

That's funny but I do appreciate your honesty. I wonder why a Mac gaming forum would be of interest to you but who am I to tell you what to be interested in?

I spend my time these days mostly arguing politics down in PRSI, but I do like coming up here on occasion to see what's going on. Despite the fact I don't own one, I'm always interested in Macs, and hey, games are games, regardless of what platform you're playing them on.

I prefer DRM free but I am okay with it when it is invisible to me preferably. So Steam was okay there. The App Store is okay there. GOG, Humble or MGS I notice for some stuff is better still though for the games with zero DRM. I have no complaints about Origin really in limited experience but the Mac selection is abysmal and so is my interest there as such.

The App Store, GOG, Humble and MGS in no particular order are the likely sources for me going forward. A lot will just depend on who has what and at what price.

Steam has become a real mess, a huge bargain bin populated with a lot more junk that quality and an annoying buggy client they don't seem interested in fixing. So why would I want to shop there versus elsewhere? What compelling reason would I have? XYZ game is only there? Oh, well. I am pretty far behind anyway. I'll live.

I can understand some concerns, especially when it comes to DRM, and having one company all but controlling the entire PC gaming scene. Like I said, I can think of a few complaints that can be leveled Valve's way.

But there are times when things can drift from legitimate complaints into being mad for the sake of being mad, which I believe this whole selling mods for money thing tends towards. I think if someone works hard on something, they deserve a little kickback. The mod scene works as a precursor to getting into actual development, and getting paid for your work could act as an incentive for more people to get into it. Since Valve isn't requiring all mods to be distributed with a price tag, I don't see anyone being victimized by this move.

Plus there are quite a few good things Valve has been doing recently. Mainly that they're directly responsible for the sudden upswing in developer support for Linux. If there's any one paring that could put a dint into Windows hegemony on gaming, it'd be Steam and Linux.

Since Valve isn't using any proprietary API's or services, save for their storefront, anyone wanting to develop games for Linux can do so with the tools they're providing, and sell them anywhere they want. Valve isn't developing their own OS on top of Linux. They're developing for Linux. They're the reason why GOG is now selling Linux games. Why Aspyr and Feral are now porting games to the platform. Why there are suddenly thousands of native games to choose from, where once you had to settle for WINE or Tux Kart as your only gaming options.

Give props where props are due. They might not be perfect, but they're far from terrible.

----------

They aren't getting 75%. Valve is taking 75% the top and some undisclosed split happens after that which probably varies from game to game. Some games can command a higher margin than others so sometimes Valve will have to share more of the cut and other times less. Presumably the game developer is going to be getting the higher percentage here but it is a fairly safe bet Valve will be getting a 20% to 30% margin on the deal.

Oh yeah. They'll be getting at least 15%. No doubt.

I do not think the developers can really code bug fixes, improvements, content additions, etc. around mod makers. I think it is going to fall to them to fix their mods but I am no soothsayer either. We'll see how it all plays out soon enough.

There are tons of games that have mod support that don't run into this problem. Except for MMOs, most games only see a handful of patches throughout their life, with the brunt of them being issued shortly after a games release.

On top of that, I can't think of many games with built in mod support that's broken tons of previous mods due to a patch. Morrowind mods still work, even after all these years. Same with Oblivion and Skyrim. Torchlight 1 & 2 never had compatibility issues. Nor Legend of Grimrock.

And even more beyond that, most mods are going to be centered around cosmetic changes. Models, sound files, and whatnot. These are usually fixed formats that are plugged into a game. Unless a developer decides to change to a different file format (which would require a massive patch that updates all the game's content to support it). The rest will be scripts that effect gameplay changes. Even that's about the same issue. A dev won't change their scripting language for their game a year or two after release. At most, you can expect some script conflicts if the developers bug fix something down the road, but that's easily fixed by anyone with a bit of coding knowledge.

I don't think future incompatibilities will be much of an issue. It's a potentiality, but not a direct, ever looming problem.

 

[Michael Goff]

Choice by publisher:
50% Bethesda
25% Valve
25% Mod Developer

 

[antonis]

Only when iTunes introduced a DRM-free solution did we really see digital music sales start to take off, and that’s what became the industry standard.

This is true and in particular, right from Steve Jobs' official biography, Steve's main argument to convince the various music production companies to allow their songs in iTunes without DRM was that "people don't like to be treated as potential criminals".

 

[Dirtyharry50]

I don't know what to blame them for. They're not forcing anything on anyone.

Well, I mentioned in my OP what I am unhappy about but you're right I guess. Steam is blameless. It is all my fault if I shop there. That's why I am planning not to do that anymore. I wouldn't want to be responsible for doing that to myself any longer.

Just because people make foolish mistakes does not exactly absolve the ones who served up and marketed the means to make them from all responsibility.

Thinking about all the early access and now paid mods I am thinking, if a store sold poop and some people bought it for whatever reasons I guess the store isn't to blame but I would still have a problem shopping at a store that sells poop, especially a lot of poop. Maybe that makes things a little clearer. Sure, it is good fertilizer and all but that's not what I had in mind when I came to shop there. The poop on Steam isn't even good for fertilizer. It isn't good for anything. And who can deny there is one whole heck of a lot of poop on Steam? At least you can't smell digital poop so that's a plus.

I know, other stores have some too. They all do. It's everywhere but nowhere will you find it in anywhere near the abundance and variety that you will on Steam. This seems to be quite a plus in some people's minds too, this huge selection but once you cart away all the poop how much is left to pick from and how much does it really differ from alternative sources? The gap becomes smaller when the situation is viewed in this way for Mac games in particular. Steam still wins even when you take all the poop away but not nearly by so much as it appears to now.

Here's a story from my own experience with the poop on Steam. I bought a cheap little early access title on a sale. It looked nifty and it was Steamplay so I took a shot but I did it knowing the game may not turn out so well. I have to confess, I did expect it to at least release. This was not to be. No refunds were possible. Here's why: two guys were the development team in total. One story guy, one coding guy, no QA guy but who needs QA anyway? That's what paying users are for. So anyway, after a long time in development the coding guy bails. This leaves poor story guy holding the bag and unable to make sense of the the coding guy's code not surprisingly. He actually attempted initially to continue with it I think but then opted to start over with some other development environment and I guess learn to make something with it as he went. When users wanted refunds he was sincerely apologetic but the money had already been spent and he didn't personally have enough money to refund people. Also, Mac development ceased to be as he needed to get some kind of working windows game out and hoped maybe someday the a Mac version too.

After reading that sad little story, I took pity on the guy and wished him well because I did feel sorry for him. Then I hid the game that will probably never be in my library and moved on.

I think there's plenty of blame to go around there. I blame Steam for making that possible on their Store. I blame the guy who bailed for doing that. I feel sorry for the guy left holding the bag but I blame both guys for taking money from people for something that was not done because stuff like this can and does happen. I do not blame the people who bought it for anything more than being foolish enough to do so.

In order of badness here the winners are:

• Steam for allowing this to be possible on their store.
• The guy who bailed.

The losers are:

• The people like me who were foolish. Yes, this is our fault. Nobody made us do it. We made an unwise choice.
• The guy who tried to make it up but lacked the skills needed to do so. I'm being generous here out of pity because he never meant to rip people off.

Steam allows and actively markets early access games. As seen above any amateur can take people's money first and maybe deliver the goods later. For that matter, folks such as Mr. Molyneux can too. Development of the negatively rated Godus has yet to bear any pleasing fruit. Kickstarter is one thing. Selling this stuff at retail is something else as far as I am concerned.

I think paid mods are going to take people down the same path that too many early access games have taken them and that is wrong too.

All the while, Valve is cashing in big time on all of this badness. Yes, I do blame them for these things.

 

[Dirtyharry50]

Plus there are quite a few good things Valve has been doing recently. Mainly that they're directly responsible for the sudden upswing in developer support for Linux. If there's any one paring that could put a dint into Windows hegemony on gaming, it'd be Steam and Linux.

Since Valve isn't using any proprietary API's or services, save for their storefront, anyone wanting to develop games for Linux can do so with the tools they're providing, and sell them anywhere they want. Valve isn't developing their own OS on top of Linux. They're developing for Linux. They're the reason why GOG is now selling Linux games. Why Aspyr and Feral are now porting games to the platform. Why there are suddenly thousands of native games to choose from, where once you had to settle for WINE or Tux Kart as your only gaming options.

Give props where props are due. They might not be perfect, but they're far from terrible.

If Linux was my preferred operating system my point of view I'm sure would be different, all could be forgiven for the salvation of Linux gaming. I really can understand that. It isn't though so it doesn't really apply to me personally.

Gabe didn't decide to support Linux just to be a swell guy. He is a smart guy. Microsoft's integration of an App store, etc. into Windows which no doubt will be selling games if not already poses a potential threat to Steam over time. If they develop a nice gaming platform that is built in to the operating system with an option to open the store and buy installed on every PC by default I could see that potentially being a problem for Steam over the long haul. Users might gravitate to a better solution right inside Windows in substantial numbers.

I really think concern about such a scenario is what prompted the creation of Steam OS, etc. to further entrench Steam and hopefully wrest PC gaming away from Windows and Microsoft as much as possible. In Gabe's future world who knows, perhaps we could see Feral and Aspyr doing ports to Windows so they have something decent to play too.

 

[roadbloc]

It's just another nail in the coffin from my perspective.

If people want to develop high quality mods that qualify as stand-alone games such as Counter-Strike or Day of Defeat fine. Those justify a price tag but if people are really going to pay for half-baked home made dlc that will wind up being a huge garbage pile from which perhaps a few gems will emerge, good luck to them.

Good luck to them too when the game proper receives an update that breaks the mods they paid for which are not refundable even if they are broken days later by a patch.

No thank you.

Mods can still be free. And to be honest, in the long run, the vast majority will probably remain to be.

 

[saturnotaku]

Here's a story from my own experience with the poop on Steam. I bought a cheap little early access title on a sale. It looked nifty and it was Steamplay so I took a shot but I did it knowing the game may not turn out so well.

The bolded part was your problem right there. The early access program, which was a good idea when it started, is completely out of control now. It needs a complete overhaul or done away with entirely. A big step forward would be the allowance of refunds. Credit where it's due, this is something EA is doing right.

 

[blesscheese]

Darn Steam (or Steam Sales & Marketing) for tricking me into spending more money! Shame on them! They're awful!

You missed my point...I'm not trying to stop *you* from spending your money anyway you want. I was just listing a reason why I didn't think Steam was all that great, but it wasn't my primary reason, the DRM issue is primary.

People (like you) trumpet a great advantage of Steam is that they have all these sales! SALES! UBER TUESDAY! etc.

The reality is (and Ars Technica had a great article which there is a "readers digest" version at PC Gamer most people don't spend a lot of time with their purchases.

So, what is the advantage of SALES SALES SALES when you wind up not really playing/enjoying the purchase?

This generally comes down to the question of "quality vs. quantity" and is why pre-teens download mega amounts of video game ROMS they will never play; people tend to think *quantity* is the most important measure of something, when in actuality there are a lot of people who prefer *quality*.

Over the past couple of years, rather than mindlessly dumping money into Steam, I've been backing projects on Kickstarter, that otherwise wouldn't get made. Based on the first game out of the gate, Pillars of Eternity, I'm glad I did. Maybe in a couple of years, when you get it on a sale on Steam, you will be happy too? I'd still say, "Get it on GOG!"

----------

Well, uh...dirty secret time. I have an iPhone and iPad, but not a Mac. So yeah, I run Steam primarily on Windows and Linux.

That is too funny!

I haven't run Steam on Linux, but based on my experiences a couple of years ago on Mac, I only run it on Windoze...

 

[Solomani]

I spend my time these days mostly arguing politics down in PRSI, but I do like coming up here on occasion to see what's going on. Despite the fact I don't own one, I'm always interested in Macs, and hey, games are games, regardless of what platform you're playing them on.

I think I understand where DirtyHarry is coming from. The people here complaining about Steam tend to be Mac gamers. The PC gamers on Steam tend to be satisfied in general. See the distinction? In other words, the trend I'm seeing is that Steam is a big disappointment to many Mac gamers. Not the same sentiment for PC gamers.

Hence you really cannot empathize with them unless you have witnessed and experienced THEIR point of view as Steam/Mac gamers, with all the bugs, frustrations, warts and all. It's no surprise that Steam will prioritize PC gamers first. MacOSX customers will be treated as a second-class clientele, for obvious reasons that they are a minority user-base.

In conclusion, dismissing THEIR concerns (as posted here by Washac, DirtyHarry, etc) is not really fair…. unless you can claim to have seen/experienced things from their perspective as Mac-based Steam gamers.

Addendum: I will admit that a couple of issues "against Steam", which are OS-neutral, are indeed weak arguments to criticize Steam. The Steam sales is one of them. I agree that a sale is a sale. No one is forcing you to buy them. A sale is just an opportunity to buy something at a lower price. If you want it great. If not, then no big deal. But it's no reason to use as a grudge against Steam.

 

[Renzatic]

Addendum: I will admit that a couple of issues "against Steam", which are OS-neutral, are indeed weak arguments to criticize Steam. The Steam sales is one of them. I agree that a sale is a sale. No one is forcing you to buy them. A sale is just an opportunity to buy something at a lower price. If you want it great. If not, then no big deal. But it's no reason to use as a grudge against Steam.

This is what I'm arguing against. I haven't used Steam on OSX, so I'm not going to say "no, you're wrong, it's awesome" when someone complains about its performance and reliability. I've heard enough around the internet to know that the Mac client is more than a little flaky, and realize it can lead to some bad feelings all around.

It's those couple of "against Steam" issues I'm taking an exception to. Like the sales, early access, and now paid community-made content. Like Dirtyharry's story above. I don't doubt his story. It's practically the de facto reason people should be wary of early access. But he's focusing entirely on that one negative, and judging the entire concept poorly because of it. Paid access to alphas and betas have been a big thing in the indie scene for awhile now. It's how some of them continue to fund their games after their Kickstarter campaigns have come and gone.

Yeah, there are risks associated with it, and it has been a bit overly abused as of late, but those risks don't negate all the various upsides. All Valve is doing is giving indie developers a more centralized platform to garner more attention to what they're making.

...and yeah, Valve takes a cut as well. They're obviously not doing it for entirely altruistic reasons. But I'm not going to hold that against them.

 

[madeirabhoy]

I think I understand where DirtyHarry is coming from. The people here complaining about Steam tend to be Mac gamers. The PC gamers on Steam tend to be satisfied in general. See the distinction? In other words, the trend I'm seeing is that Steam is a big disappointment to many Mac gamers. Not the same sentiment for PC gamers.

Hence you really cannot empathize with them unless you have witnessed and experienced THEIR point of view as Steam/Mac gamers, with all the bugs, frustrations, warts and all. It's no surprise that Steam will prioritize PC gamers first. MacOSX customers will be treated as a second-class clientele, for obvious reasons that they are a minority user-base.

In conclusion, dismissing THEIR concerns (as posted here by Washac, DirtyHarry, etc) is not really fair…. unless you can claim to have seen/experienced things from their perspective as Mac-based Steam gamers.

Addendum: I will admit that a couple of issues "against Steam", which are OS-neutral, are indeed weak arguments to criticize Steam. The Steam sales is one of them. I agree that a sale is a sale. No one is forcing you to buy them. A sale is just an opportunity to buy something at a lower price. If you want it great. If not, then no big deal. But it's no reason to use as a grudge against Steam.

but see i dont get that. as a mac user, id feel I've more reason to be positive about steam.

lets face it the interface is the same whatever you use.

but having steam on OS X has (for me) been a hugely positive thing. not only are mac games available on it, but at the same price as pc. i cant say for certain that steam has resulted in more mac ports (although i would guess it has) but it definitely has allowed us all to pay less money for our mac ports, plus its allowed us the backup plan of the pc version just in case or mac struggles with the mac port and we have to switch to bootcamp. plus those times where we sprung for a pc game only for a mac version to come out after, with steam we get it.