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DX9OSCar

macrumors newbie
Oct 20, 2020
6
7
I'm yet another still flip-flopping between 8 & 16 GB RAM — pre-M1 I'd just have gone for as much RAM as possible but now hmmm

FWIW I decided to look at the specs of the current iOS devices as they use the same ARM chip architecture to see what Apple is doing there — also you get what RAM you're given with those devices — maybe zero choice with RAM is the future?

Anyhow, low-end iOS (iPhone SE, iPad) use 3 GB
mid-range (iPhone 12, iPad Air) use 4 GB
the 'Pro' devices tend to use 6 GB

So maybe 8 GB RAM makes sense for the next level up for the consumer-level laptops (and iMacs) — 16 GB could then be for 'Pro' models…?

Many of us in these forums care (deeply) about these things; but the vast, vast majority don't give a monkeys; so this could be another way in which Apple leads (first to ditch the floppy disk drives, etc.)
 

AndrewWx

Contributor
Feb 10, 2005
277
197
Ventura CA
For context, look at what people paid for Mac Plus in 1987. SE in 1988. $4-6,000 for SE/30. Or IIx and IIfx, like the IBM PC-XT -AT etc in 1980's. We are at the Mac Plus waiting for the Mac IIcx/ci.

IowaLynn - thanks for the trip down memory lane! My IIci was a great machine - but wow was it expensive and those are 6000 1990 dollars!
 

Booji

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Nov 17, 2011
793
519
Tokyo
What exactly do you use your rig for?

If its just for browsing the net and watching Netflix then 8GB is really all one needs.

If you like to play demanding games then 16GB would be better

I am really getting into creative now (Photoshop and Premier Pro). I am a beginner but finding that 8GB on my current Windows machine is really limiting.
 

phl92

macrumors 6502
Oct 28, 2020
301
47
I am in a similar decision conflict like you. Def go for the MBP, def 512 GB SSD and most probably for the 16 GB Ram. Why? Because I want my machine at least 5 years, and how much is 200€ over this period? Not so much, and it's the only chance, because later there cant be something added anymore.
Will 16GB guarantee me that I have a functional laptop in 5-7 years? No! But it increases the chances...

I am also editing videos and photos, but I am a light user of it, even though I am planning to do more with it in the future.

So far, there were not real life reviews on YT with the 16GB and 8 GB model... I am waiting for Max Tech who bought both of them.
I just saw 2 reviews, where people got stucked with the 8GB version editing longer 4k videos in FCP... the Programm just froze
 
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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,617
Los Angeles, CA
I am ready to push the button on my M1 Pro but am leaning towards 16GB as I have always chosen to upgrade RAM in the past and have never regretted the decision. My use case where I think I might need is for video and photo editing in Adobe.

I am now reading so many reviews that the M1 is a new paradigm and 8GB seems to be more than enough for anyone but the most demanding users.

Making it harder is the fact that all of the models available through third party re-sellers like Amazon offer discounts of up to 5%, but they are limited to 8GB models.

I am biased to go for the 16GB anyway, but still foregoing the discount makes the net price of the upgrade very expensive.
Go for 16GB. The upgrade really isn't that expensive, all things considered.

Put it this way: If you get 8GB and realize later that you should've gone with 16GB, you'll continue to feel the inconvenience. Whereas if you get 16GB and realize later that you would've been fine with 8GB, you'll just shrug to yourself, and possibly regret having the extra $200 for something that doesn't ultimately matter in the grand scheme of things only to earn it again next paycheck/unemployment payment because, worst case scenario, your resale value on that machine will be proportionately higher.

Even if M1 represents a new computing paradigm (which it doesn't really), it's not like all other platforms (Windows, macOS on Intel, iOS/iPadOS, Android, etc.) don't all get obvious benefits with more RAM over time. You may not feel the extra 16GB of RAM now. But if macOS on Intel and iOS/iPadOS on Apple Silicon are indicators, it will still be of help down the road when macOS for Apple Silicon inevitably bloats further...
 

ArPe

macrumors 65816
May 31, 2020
1,281
3,325
.
.
I just saw 2 reviews, where people got stucked with the 8GB version editing longer 4k videos in FCP... the Programm just froze

True story. I tested After Effects on 8 and 16GB. Should be obvious that the 8GB had a massive swap file that made cached playback jerky. Opening just one large Hasselblad raw image in Photoshop used 15GB.

The GPU is also using RAM, all these self made internet experts fail to mention it every post ?

Anyone who says 8GB is enough for creatives is cuckoo and they should go back to 2010 ??
 

NJRonbo

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2007
3,233
1,224
True story. I tested After Effects on 8 and 16GB. Should be obvious that the 8GB had a massive swap file that made cached playback jerky. Opening just one large Hasselblad raw image in Photoshop used 15GB.

The GPU is also using RAM, all these self made internet experts fail to mention it every post ?

Anyone who says 8GB is enough for creatives is cuckoo and they should go back to 2010 ??

So you are now the guy to ask...

Is there a difference between 8 and 16GB on an M1 compared to an Intel?
 

Booji

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Nov 17, 2011
793
519
Tokyo
I am in a similar decision conflict like you. Def go for the MBP, def 512 GB SSD and most probably for the 16 GB Ram. Why? Because I want my machine at least 5 years, and how much is 200€ over this period? Not so much, and it's the only chance, because later there cant be something added anymore.
Will 16GB guarantee me that I have a functional laptop in 5-7 years? No! But it increases the chances...

I am also editing videos and photos, but I am a light user of it, even though I am planning to do more with it in the future.

So far, there were not real life reviews on YT with the 16GB and 8 GB model... I am waiting for Max Tech who bought both of them.
I just saw 2 reviews, where people got stucked with the 8GB version editing longer 4k videos in FCP... the Programm just froze

I just now put in my order for a MBP 512/16 for delivery scheduled Dec 8-14.

Yes I agree the 8GB might be fine for now but it just may not be one or two years later. The extra money is like an insurance policy of which I can recapture a portion of on resale.

With that said, until the order is fulfilled, I will continue to monitor the responses.
 

Zazoh

macrumors 68000
Jan 4, 2009
1,516
1,121
San Antonio, Texas
Unless you are in a fringe case, Apple sells very capable base models.

I remote into work (VM Ware Horizon Client) Do video calls (Zoom) and use various Mac software through my work day. Since getting on Tuesday, my MBA M1 Memory pressure graph has always been green. It is usually flat on the lower 1/4 of the graph, 2gb.

I’m a software developer at a large financial institution. When our system architects design systems and the system is under utilized for its capacity, they get dinged and the system is downsized. In cases like this with scale, trying to future proof bandwidth, storage CPU and RAM can leave millions of dollars of otherwise profit sitting in a rack in a data center.

For us, from consumers to Prosumers it adds up. I’ve been using Macs for years in a household of 4 users. I Always buy base and have never regretted it.

If all of us were involved in video production or working as animators, I’d buy based on past experience. Not our use case yet.
 

ArPe

macrumors 65816
May 31, 2020
1,281
3,325
So you are now the guy to ask...

Is there a difference between 8 and 16GB on an M1 compared to an Intel?

There will be a difference, always. Anyone who says differently has never seen a big swap file introduce latency in an intensive app that requires speedy responsiveness.
 
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NJRonbo

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2007
3,233
1,224
Get the 8GB for $899.. update in a year.

We don't know that.

The Minis get lesser refreshes than other models.

The silver is the low-end. The space-grey is the pro.

However, there are a lot of other devices due out next year including an iMac, 16" MBP, and possible Pro. We may not see a Mini upgrade until 2022. Of course, always an assumption.
 

ArPe

macrumors 65816
May 31, 2020
1,281
3,325
I just now put in my order for a MBP 512/16 for delivery scheduled Dec 8-14.

Yes I agree the 8GB might be fine for now but it just may not be one or two years later. The extra money is like an insurance policy of which I can recapture a portion of on resale.

With that said, until the order is fulfilled, I will continue to monitor the responses.
Congrats. Like you said, the more RAM the more future proof. If all 8GB is already consumed now imagine in two years. Not everyone can afford to upgrade every year, especially after this corona damaged so many incomes.
 
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m5hit

macrumors newbie
Jul 9, 2019
14
5
A price reduction of £50 in the UK (Amazon) tipped me over the edge and order placed for for MacBook Air with 8 GB.

Adding RAM for “insurance” or “future proofing” is not worth £250 especially given the plethora of positive reviews from actual owners of M1 MacBooks with 8 GB.
 
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Booji

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Nov 17, 2011
793
519
Tokyo
Congrats. Like you said, the more RAM the more future proof. If all 8GB is already consumed now imagine in two years. Not everyone can afford to upgrade every year, especially after this corona damaged so many incomes.

I got burned when I bought my first Air with 2GB. Everyone was telling me it was OK - this is Mac OS after all, but in the end it was severely limiting.

The next year in 2014, I upgraded my Air. 4GB was standard but I went for the 8GB. I still have it and use it to this day as a backup and it runs just fine.
 

pcmike

macrumors 6502a
Jun 17, 2007
518
378
Lake Worth, FL
We don't know that.

The Minis get lesser refreshes than other models.

The silver is the low-end. The space-grey is the pro.

However, there are a lot of other devices due out next year including an iMac, 16" MBP, and possible Pro. We may not see a Mini upgrade until 2022. Of course, always an assumption.
I'm looking to update my 2011 MBA 11" ... but I'm hedging my bets. I got my wife and daughter each a M1 MBA base for $899. I'll get to use my wife's MBA when I need to (not very often) and then when they do any sort of updates next year I plan on getting either another base.. or maybe something with a little more RAM and SSD only because I'll again keep mine for another 10 years or so. I honestly can't even believe what you're getting for $899. For about $1200 out the door you get a laptop that blows the competition away and is fully warranted for 3 years. It's an insane price point for an Apple product. When you start adding the options to it.. the value goes out the window. If you're not sure if you need the 16GB or larger SSD.. you likely do not; take the savings.
 
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ArPe

macrumors 65816
May 31, 2020
1,281
3,325
I got burned when I bought my first Air with 2GB. Everyone was telling me it was OK - this is Mac OS after all, but in the end it was severely limiting.

The next year in 2014, I upgraded my Air. 4GB was standard but I went for the 8GB. I still have it and use it to this day as a backup and it runs just fine.
I know what you mean and I’ve been there in the past when base models had limited RAM or video memory.

Its not uncommon for misinformed people to be very noisy on the internet so be careful taking advice online. We already had one person in the discussion say that the performance of a drive won’t degrade after writing terabytes of data every day. That’s misinformation or an uneducated opinion. Swap files or virtual memory should always be avoided by anyone using their computer for more than just office work.
 

Jack Neill

macrumors 68020
Sep 13, 2015
2,272
2,308
San Antonio Texas
Go for 16GB. The upgrade really isn't that expensive, all things considered.

Put it this way: If you get 8GB and realize later that you should've gone with 16GB, you'll continue to feel the inconvenience. Whereas if you get 16GB and realize later that you would've been fine with 8GB, you'll just shrug to yourself, and possibly regret having the extra $200 for something that doesn't ultimately matter in the grand scheme of things only to earn it again next paycheck/unemployment payment because, worst case scenario, your resale value on that machine will be proportionately higher.

Even if M1 represents a new computing paradigm (which it doesn't really), it's not like all other platforms (Windows, macOS on Intel, iOS/iPadOS, Android, etc.) don't all get obvious benefits with more RAM over time. You may not feel the extra 16GB of RAM now. But if macOS on Intel and iOS/iPadOS on Apple Silicon are indicators, it will still be of help down the road when macOS for Apple Silicon inevitably bloats further...
I agree go for the 16, especially if your using my taxes in the form of a unemployment check to buy a new Mac..
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
8,449
Allegedly, 8GB is the new 16GB and 16GB the new 32. However, that all depends on who you listen to.
There's a useful rule: "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence". There's no evidence for that claim, nor is there any theoretical explanation beyond hand-waving "because unified memory" and suchlike.

What there is evidence for is that the 8GB M1 machines are, all round, fast enough to take on some tasks - particularly video editing - that were previously the domain of higher-end Macs with (compared to the Intel Air and low-end MBP) better CPUs, better GPUs, better cooling and more RAM. At the moment, there's no clue as to which of those factors is making the difference - although a big part of it (particularly for video editing) is probably having a GPU designed from the ground up for Metal and accelerating Apple's video formats.

Allegedly, you can't compare memory to an Intel machine.

1GB of RAM on Intel stores the same amount of data as 1GB of RAM on Apple Silicon.

Swapping virtual memory to/from SSD may be faster on Apple Silicon (with an on-chip disc controller and unified memory) but is still an order of magnitude slower than accessing data in RAM.

What is harder to compare is the RAM usage of different operating systems running significantly different (versions of) software: e.g. Windows vs. MacOS vs. iOS. iOS and iOS Apps are optimised for ~4GB RAM including very different approaches to app switching/user-level multitasking. There's also a difference between the amount of RAM a particular OS needs for smooth day-to-day operation (which can vary enormously) and how applications perform when they need to manipulate huge chunks of data.

When it comes to the M1 vs Intel MacOS the OS functionality is pretty much the same and - at the moment - much of the impressive performance is being seen on apps mechanically translated from Intel by Rosetta, and even the native apps to date have been compiled from the self-same source code. Maybe, as that software gets further optimised for Apple Silicon, it will be tweaked to use smaller buffers etc. leading to modest RAM reductions for some jobs, but the idea that there is some sort of huge, across-the-board reduction in RAM usage (especially of the 16GB = 32GB variety) is simply not very plausible.

That doesn't mean that, when all the CPU, GPU, thermal, SSD speed etc. improvements are factored into a complex workflow like video production, the 8GB M1 won't beat a 16+GB Intel - but if it does it probably means that RAM was never the limiting factor for that task. Other jobs - that actually benefit from loading large chunks of data into RAM (e.g. compositing large bitmap files in Photoshop, loading many sampled instruments into Logic, running lots of VMs with large RAM allocations) may tell a different story.

My current machine is a 16" MBP with 64GB ram. I did have 2019 13" MBP with 16GB of ram running the same two dozen-plus startup programs I could see the memory indicator in iStat Menus fill completely up.

MacOS will - certainly on a 16GB machine - try to use all the available RAM, including using "spare" RAM as a disc cache. The performance question is how many page faults (i.e. instances of RAM contents to be swapped to/from virtual memory on disc) are happening during processing. Even using virtual memory isn't a problem if the memory in question is from idle processes. The "memory pressure" reading in Activity Monitor is the best indication of whether you're short of RAM.

I really suspect that a lot of people have over-specified the RAM on their Intel Macs when their workflow is actually being bottlenecked by CPU/GPU/SSD. Or they're seeing modest speed-ups from using RAM for disc caching that are partly offset by the M1's faster SSD and all-round speed improvements.

What we've yet to see is how some of these tasks - not to mention the sort of RAM-intensive tasks that really do need 16GB++- compare on an 8GB M1 vs. a 16GB M1.

Also, remember, comparisons with Intel Macs are a flash-in-the-pan. Within a year or so, you're going to be pitting your M1 against 16" MBPs and iMacs with M2/M1X/whatever chips (and quite possibly 64GB or RAM).

I am really getting into creative now (Photoshop and Premier Pro). I am a beginner but finding that 8GB on my current Windows machine is really limiting.

Well, Windows vs. MacOS is a harder comparison. Even "Photoshop" or "Premiere Pro" is a piece of string which depends on what formats and resolutions you are using, how many layers you are building up etc.

If you're doing "creative" stuff with video and images, I think the advice in the past has always been that you'd probably be best with at least 16GB and I really don't think that there is evidence to change that for M1. However, unless you're also planning to switch to Final Cut and Pixelmator/Affinity you should probably wait until the Apple Silicon native versions of Adobe CS come out - hopefully early next year. There may be some hard evidence on RAM differences by then.

Bear in mind that the M1 offerings so far are Apple's cheapest machines and will be bought by many, many people who just want to edit documents, browse the web and consume ready-made media. They really don't need more than 8GB. The price points, memory options and upgrade pricing on the M1 laptops (the Mini is an anomaly) are exactly the same as for the Intel models they replace - and are also broadly comparable with competing PC laptops (13" ultraportables with LPDDR RAM like the XPS 13, ZenBook 13, Surface Laptop 13 etc.)
 

Booji

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Nov 17, 2011
793
519
Tokyo
I agree go for the 16, especially if your using my taxes in the form of a unemployment check to buy a new Mac..
That was the whole intent of the stimulus payments - get people to go out and spend money to boost the economy
 

NJRonbo

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2007
3,233
1,224
There's a useful rule: "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence". There's no evidence for that claim, nor is there any theoretical explanation beyond hand-waving "because unified memory" and suchlike.

What there is evidence for is that the 8GB M1 machines are, all round, fast enough to take on some tasks - particularly video editing - that were previously the domain of higher-end Macs with (compared to the Intel Air and low-end MBP) better CPUs, better GPUs, better cooling and more RAM. At the moment, there's no clue as to which of those factors is making the difference - although a big part of it (particularly for video editing) is probably having a GPU designed from the ground up for Metal and accelerating Apple's video formats.



1GB of RAM on Intel stores the same amount of data as 1GB of RAM on Apple Silicon.

Swapping virtual memory to/from SSD may be faster on Apple Silicon (with an on-chip disc controller and unified memory) but is still an order of magnitude slower than accessing data in RAM.

What is harder to compare is the RAM usage of different operating systems running significantly different (versions of) software: e.g. Windows vs. MacOS vs. iOS. iOS and iOS Apps are optimised for ~4GB RAM including very different approaches to app switching/user-level multitasking. There's also a difference between the amount of RAM a particular OS needs for smooth day-to-day operation (which can vary enormously) and how applications perform when they need to manipulate huge chunks of data.

When it comes to the M1 vs Intel MacOS the OS functionality is pretty much the same and - at the moment - much of the impressive performance is being seen on apps mechanically translated from Intel by Rosetta, and even the native apps to date have been compiled from the self-same source code. Maybe, as that software gets further optimised for Apple Silicon, it will be tweaked to use smaller buffers etc. leading to modest RAM reductions for some jobs, but the idea that there is some sort of huge, across-the-board reduction in RAM usage (especially of the 16GB = 32GB variety) is simply not very plausible.

That doesn't mean that, when all the CPU, GPU, thermal, SSD speed etc. improvements are factored into a complex workflow like video production, the 8GB M1 won't beat a 16+GB Intel - but if it does it probably means that RAM was never the limiting factor for that task. Other jobs - that actually benefit from loading large chunks of data into RAM (e.g. compositing large bitmap files in Photoshop, loading many sampled instruments into Logic, running lots of VMs with large RAM allocations) may tell a different story.



MacOS will - certainly on a 16GB machine - try to use all the available RAM, including using "spare" RAM as a disc cache. The performance question is how many page faults (i.e. instances of RAM contents to be swapped to/from virtual memory on disc) are happening during processing. Even using virtual memory isn't a problem if the memory in question is from idle processes. The "memory pressure" reading in Activity Monitor is the best indication of whether you're short of RAM.

I really suspect that a lot of people have over-specified the RAM on their Intel Macs when their workflow is actually being bottlenecked by CPU/GPU/SSD. Or they're seeing modest speed-ups from using RAM for disc caching that are partly offset by the M1's faster SSD and all-round speed improvements.

What we've yet to see is how some of these tasks - not to mention the sort of RAM-intensive tasks that really do need 16GB++- compare on an 8GB M1 vs. a 16GB M1.

Also, remember, comparisons with Intel Macs are a flash-in-the-pan. Within a year or so, you're going to be pitting your M1 against 16" MBPs and iMacs with M2/M1X/whatever chips (and quite possibly 64GB or RAM).



Well, Windows vs. MacOS is a harder comparison. Even "Photoshop" or "Premiere Pro" is a piece of string which depends on what formats and resolutions you are using, how many layers you are building up etc.

If you're doing "creative" stuff with video and images, I think the advice in the past has always been that you'd probably be best with at least 16GB and I really don't think that there is evidence to change that for M1. However, unless you're also planning to switch to Final Cut and Pixelmator/Affinity you should probably wait until the Apple Silicon native versions of Adobe CS come out - hopefully early next year. There may be some hard evidence on RAM differences by then.

Bear in mind that the M1 offerings so far are Apple's cheapest machines and will be bought by many, many people who just want to edit documents, browse the web and consume ready-made media. They really don't need more than 8GB. The price points, memory options and upgrade pricing on the M1 laptops (the Mini is an anomaly) are exactly the same as for the Intel models they replace - and are also broadly comparable with competing PC laptops (13" ultraportables with LPDDR RAM like the XPS 13, ZenBook 13, Surface Laptop 13 etc.)

I loved reading this and I am so glad you took the time to provide a knowledgeable response, though of some of it was over my head.

So, to put it in more simplistic terms...

If I am the type that loads 2 dozen+ programs at startup, all running in the background, do you foresee a bottleneck on a 16GB M1 in the same way it would choke an Intel with the same memory? If the CPU/GPU/SSD is far faster in the M1 will that give me a lot more headroom to work with?

Thank you, again, for coming here to educate some of us.
 
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