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Here is a simpler use case - I love black and white photography. Unless I use my monochrome camera or film, then I have to edit my images to take the colour away while maintaining the rich tones. Don’t confuse setting a camera to black and white with shooting images with the intent to make them black and white. A black and white jpeg out of camera is not as nice as a properly processed black and white image.

Among other things(to expound on what you're saying, not contradict, especially since I know you know all of this), B&W film shooters often use colored filters over the lenses. A simple case is that unfiltered panachromatic B&W film typically will render the sky a featureless light gray or clear. A yellow filter grays up the sky a bit while keeping the clouds white, while orange makes the sky a bit darker and red makes the sky black with the clouds still white.

Typically shooting the B&W mode in-camera is the equivalent of using ufiltered panachromatic film. I could see some cameras offering digital "filters", but Fuji would be my best guess of who would do it(trying to remember if my S5 does it, and don't have any MILC Fuji experience).

Just going into your image editor of choice and clicking "desaturate" does this also.

Lightroom at least has pre-programmed filter settings for B&W conversions. I've also used a fee stand-alone program that was really good at this too and I loved because it would both emulate the spectral response of a film stock and let you apply filters(SilverFX maybe?).

Then of course you can go the channel mixer route in Photoshop, or its equivalent in other programs, and get the exact effect you want dialed in more finely than you ever could with film.

Going back to B&W film, if you have it processed your typical commercial lab often uses a Kodak D76 equivalent processed for what would be an equivalent to ~7 minutes at 68ºF(or slightly overdeveloped Tri-X). This gets a useable image out of most any film somewhere in the ballpark of being exposed correctly, and in fact this is my default development for unknown film at home. They turn around and print it to a grade #2, which is okay for a lot of images.

At home, I start by selecting a developer suitable for my purposes. I often use D76, but dilute it 1:1 for lower contrast and less apparently grain with a small loss of sharpness. I'll sometimes use HC110, mostly for convenience, but other developers like TMAX and Rodinal have their place for me. I adjust times according to exposure, and of course use published times sometimes modified based on my own experience for each film, not a "one size fits all." Typically if I haven't done darkroom work in a while and have a backlog of film, there's going to be a mix of Tri-X and FP4+(and maybe some other stuff thrown in) and I only ever group like films together in a tank.

Then, printing is a different story. I start by finding the right exposure, and then dialing in a contrast grade that suits best. I start with #2, and then go lower or higher based on what I see. My contrast filter set consists of 14 filters in 1/2 grade steps, so I can really narrow it in(and that's one big advantage of multigrade paper over graded, although I only know of a handful of graded papers on the market). If I'm using my Leitz V35 with a color head, or really color head but that's the only one I have, I can dial in increments even finer than 1/2 grade, although that's splitting hairs. That's just the start of printing, and not accounting for dodging and burning or more advanced techniques.
 
Among other things(to expound on what you're saying, not contradict, especially since I know you know all of this), B&W film shooters often use colored filters over the lenses. A simple case is that unfiltered panachromatic B&W film typically will render the sky a featureless light gray or clear. A yellow filter grays up the sky a bit while keeping the clouds white, while orange makes the sky a bit darker and red makes the sky black with the clouds still white.

Typically shooting the B&W mode in-camera is the equivalent of using ufiltered panachromatic film. I could see some cameras offering digital "filters", but Fuji would be my best guess of who would do it(trying to remember if my S5 does it, and don't have any MILC Fuji experience).

Just going into your image editor of choice and clicking "desaturate" does this also.

Lightroom at least has pre-programmed filter settings for B&W conversions. I've also used a fee stand-alone program that was really good at this too and I loved because it would both emulate the spectral response of a film stock and let you apply filters(SilverFX maybe?).

Then of course you can go the channel mixer route in Photoshop, or its equivalent in other programs, and get the exact effect you want dialed in more finely than you ever could with film.

Going back to B&W film, if you have it processed your typical commercial lab often uses a Kodak D76 equivalent processed for what would be an equivalent to ~7 minutes at 68ºF(or slightly overdeveloped Tri-X). This gets a useable image out of most any film somewhere in the ballpark of being exposed correctly, and in fact this is my default development for unknown film at home. They turn around and print it to a grade #2, which is okay for a lot of images.

At home, I start by selecting a developer suitable for my purposes. I often use D76, but dilute it 1:1 for lower contrast and less apparently grain with a small loss of sharpness. I'll sometimes use HC110, mostly for convenience, but other developers like TMAX and Rodinal have their place for me. I adjust times according to exposure, and of course use published times sometimes modified based on my own experience for each film, not a "one size fits all." Typically if I haven't done darkroom work in a while and have a backlog of film, there's going to be a mix of Tri-X and FP4+(and maybe some other stuff thrown in) and I only ever group like films together in a tank.

Then, printing is a different story. I start by finding the right exposure, and then dialing in a contrast grade that suits best. I start with #2, and then go lower or higher based on what I see. My contrast filter set consists of 14 filters in 1/2 grade steps, so I can really narrow it in(and that's one big advantage of multigrade paper over graded, although I only know of a handful of graded papers on the market). If I'm using my Leitz V35 with a color head, or really color head but that's the only one I have, I can dial in increments even finer than 1/2 grade, although that's splitting hairs. That's just the start of printing, and not accounting for dodging and burning or more advanced techniques.
Yes and a Rangefinder with filters is a delicate balance. You have to choose carefully for digital as it changes the focus distance ever so slightly giving soft images. Without live view you cannot correct for that.
 
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you people know so much more than i will ever understand about cameras. this is why i stick around.
 
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In his post above, Bunnspecial mentions Silver Efex, which is now part of the Nik Collection, owned by DXO after some shuffling around and a brief time as a free program via Google, and has been recently updated to Silver Efex Pro 3. It's a standalone and more importantly, can also be used as a plug-in with Photoshop and DXO Photolab. When I have an image that I've shot either intentionally with the purpose of converting it to B&W or later in the computer look at it and realize that it could be very effective in B&W I will most often pop it into Silver Efex Pro and investigate the various presets for possibilities, choose one of them as a starting point and then further adjust the image to my tastes. It is a very cool program and indeed provides the opportunity to get that film look, that grainy look, whatever one desires......

Also in a drawer I still have yellow filters, orange filters and red filters from way, way back in my film shooting days!
 
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In his post above, Bunnspecial mentions Silver Efex, which is now part of the Nik Collection, owned by DXO after some shuffling around and a brief time as a free program via Google, and has been recently updated to Silver Efex Pro 3. It's a standalone and more importantly, can also be used as a plug-in with Photoshop and DXO Photolab. When I have an image that I've shot either intentionally with the purpose of converting it to B&W or later in the computer look at it and realize that it could be very effective in B&W I will most often pop it into Silver Efex Pro and investigate the various presets for possibilities, choose one of them as a starting point and then further adjust the image to my tastes. It is a very cool program and indeed provides the opportunity to get that film look, that grainy look, whatever one desires......

Also in a drawer I still have yellow filters, orange filters and red filters from way, way back in my film shooting days!
Silver Efex is great for colour conversions but with a monochrome camera that "sees in black and white" you must use filters otherwise certain colours merge together because they are the same tone luminosity wise. This means you need to separate them at capture. What is horrible is using a red filter for a portrait... wow that makes a mess!

I hope DXO update the collection soon to be M1 native and to also allow Photoshop to integrate properly again.
 
There are a few built-in B&W presets in Lightroom that do a good conversion with adjustment. Else searching online for free presets has yielded interesting results
 
Silver Efex is great for colour conversions but with a monochrome camera that "sees in black and white" you must use filters otherwise certain colours merge together because they are the same tone luminosity wise. This means you need to separate them at capture. What is horrible is using a red filter for a portrait... wow that makes a mess!

I hope DXO update the collection soon to be M1 native and to also allow Photoshop to integrate properly again.

Yes, I can see where if one has the Leica monochrome camera that already "sees in b&W" that there wouldn't be the same need then for Silver Efex......good point! It makes sense, too, that the user would need to use filters in order to achieve specific effects, etc., just as back in the days of film we used them with our B&W film.

I hadn't realized that the NIK Collection 4 isn't yet M1 native -- I only installed it on my 2018 Intel machine, as that's the one I use for most of my photo editing.
 
Yes, I can see where if one has the Leica monochrome camera that already "sees in b&W" that there wouldn't be the same need then for Silver Efex......good point! It makes sense, too, that the user would need to use filters in order to achieve specific effects, etc., just as back in the days of film we used them with our B&W film.

I hadn't realized that the NIK Collection 4 isn't yet M1 native -- I only installed it on my 2018 Intel machine, as that's the one I use for most of my photo editing.
Also Adobe changed the way plugins work on M1 Photoshop so none of the plugins are currently available yet to work.
 
Also Adobe changed the way plugins work on M1 Photoshop so none of the plugins are currently available yet to work.
Ah.... I don't use Photoshop, but I do use DXO PhotoLab 4, and the new version works very nicely on my Intel machine. I won't have to worry about compatibility with M1 or M-whatever the next version Apple puts out is until I purchase and start using one of the next MBPs, as at some point I'll be ready to move on from my 15" Intel 2018 machine.
 
Here is a simpler use case - I love black and white photography. Unless I use my monochrome camera or film, then I have to edit my images to take the colour away while maintaining the rich tones. Don’t confuse setting a camera to black and white with shooting images with the intent to make them black and white. A black and white jpeg out of camera is not as nice as a properly processed black and white image.

This is true. A long time ago, in a previous century, I had access to a University darkroom, but using my own chemicals, film and paper.
I can't remember, and I have lost my notebooks of the time, but I think that I was using Agfa B/W film, Kodak chemicals and Ilford paper. I was able to produce prints with blacks that were so hard and crisp you could cut your finger with them. You cannot do that digitally.
 
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I can't remember, and I have lost my notebooks of the time, but I think that I was using Agfa B/W film, Kodak chemicals and Ilford paper. I was able to produce prints with blacks that were so hard and crisp you could cut your finger with them. You cannot do that digitally.

I used to access a community darkroom, and I believe that would be the combo I used.
 
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monochrome camera that "sees in black and white" you must use filters otherwise certain colours merge together because they are the same tone luminosity wise.

Ahh, yes, monochrome cameras... you Leica shooters have the fun toys :)

Kodak made some monochrome DSLRs back in the mid-90s. I'd like to have one, but they're also not great compared to modern cameras. I think the monochrome Kodaks were a less expensive option to the color versions if both were offered side-by-side.

Unfortunately, the general crumminess of the early Kodaks is offset by the fact that they've also become collectible. Actually I should give them credit, as Kodak basically invented digital still photography as a practical technology, but then turned around and got left in the dust by everyone else. Their last hurrah, the DCS 14/n and equivalent EOS mount one, was a clunky design that basically looked terrible even at ISO 400 and was a royal pain to change anything in the menus or really change most settings. Don't turn it off if you plan to use it soon either as it takes almost a minute to boot and be useable.

Still, though, the Kodak CCDs in particular had a unique look that some people really could make sing.

All of that aside, a monochrome Kodak would be fun to use and fit in great in my early DSLR collection...
 
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Ahh, yes, monochrome cameras... you Leica shooters have the fun toys :)

Kodak made some monochrome DSLRs back in the mid-90s. I'd like to have one, but they're also not great compared to modern cameras. I think the monochrome Kodaks were a less expensive option to the color versions if both were offered side-by-side.

Unfortunately, the general crumminess of the early Kodaks is offset by the fact that they've also become collectible. Actually I should give them credit, as Kodak basically invented digital still photography as a practical technology, but then turned around and got left in the dust by everyone else. Their last hurrah, the DCS 14/n and equivalent EOS mount one, was a clunky design that basically looked terrible even at ISO 400 and was a royal pain to change anything in the menus or really change most settings. Don't turn it off if you plan to use it soon either as it takes almost a minute to boot and be useable.

Still, though, the Kodak CCDs in particular had a unique look that some people really could make sing.

All of that aside, a monochrome Kodak would be fun to use and fit in great in my early DSLR collection...
Funny isn’t it how some companies who seem to be at the forefront of a technology and who you believe will always be there suddenly isn’t.
Nokia
Blackberry
Kodak
 
A couple of years ago there was a company, LDP LLC (MaxMax.com), who would modify the Fuji X100S-M and Fuji X-Pro1-M and then sell for under $3,000. The modification required the removal of the color filter array from the digital sensor. The advantage over some other cameras is that while monochrome photos could only be taken with they camera, it retained all the camera functions.

This company (no idea if they are still in business, however):

This is the modified Fuji cameras page:
 
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Funny isn’t it how some companies who seem to be at the forefront of a technology and who you believe will always be there suddenly isn’t.
Nokia
Blackberry
Kodak

Add Palm and Psion to that list too. Psion in particular were onto a winner and took their eye off the ball.

In Nokia’s defence they are still massive in the core telco tech and in Africa and China where 3G/4G hasn’t got the coverage, then Nokia candy bar phones are still de facto.

Vodafone have a system called Empeza which is a secure payments system that runs over SMS. It is pretty cool the way it works. It is used in Africa where fraud is rife. It is so cool that it is accepted as part of proof of ID processes
 
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Ahh, yes, monochrome cameras... you Leica shooters have the fun toys :)

Kodak made some monochrome DSLRs back in the mid-90s. I'd like to have one, but they're also not great compared to modern cameras. I think the monochrome Kodaks were a less expensive option to the color versions if both were offered side-by-side.

Unfortunately, the general crumminess of the early Kodaks is offset by the fact that they've also become collectible. Actually I should give them credit, as Kodak basically invented digital still photography as a practical technology, but then turned around and got left in the dust by everyone else. Their last hurrah, the DCS 14/n and equivalent EOS mount one, was a clunky design that basically looked terrible even at ISO 400 and was a royal pain to change anything in the menus or really change most settings. Don't turn it off if you plan to use it soon either as it takes almost a minute to boot and be useable.

Still, though, the Kodak CCDs in particular had a unique look that some people really could make sing.

All of that aside, a monochrome Kodak would be fun to use and fit in great in my early DSLR collection...
Toys!? Toys you say? They are wonderful Kodak CCDs - M9 and M9M are just untouchable in the right conditions. Having said that I do envy one who walks amongst us who has an M10M as that looks to be pretty much the answer to the few niggles I have with the M9M. :)
 
Funny isn’t it how some companies who seem to be at the forefront of a technology and who you believe will always be there suddenly isn’t.
Nokia
Blackberry
Kodak

I think this is just a forever true curve for consumer tech companies. Every consumer tech company goes to their peak and fall after a certain time.

The only exception so far has been Samsung because of their diversity of product lines.
 
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