I tried...It didn't last - I'm back!

[StellarVixen]

If I didn't use BootCamp partition almost regularly, yeah, I would be tricked, so I would go out and buy some Windows laptops, there are good ones out there.


But since I boot into Windows quite often for cross platform testing, no... I respect everyone's choice...but I will never give up Mac OS for Windows. If Mac OS ever dies, I will try Linux, or BSD.

 

[0989382]

Five days on I'm loving the productivity boost being back on a Mac has given me. It really does make a huge difference. I'm not allowing food anywhere near the keyboard!

One real blow is the terrible resale value of the Surface Laptop 2. The retailer (Argos, UK) won't take it back because it's not actually faulty and Microsoft will only offer an exchange (and after ten minutes on the phone to somewhere in India still trying to spell out my email address I hung up before I put my fist through a window!)

The facts that Windows crashes more than Mac OS and that Microsoft's touchpads aren't as good as Apple's don't add up to enough of a reason for anyone to offer a refund, sadly. I've wasted so much billable time I just can't mess around anymore.

But judging by the prices on eBay, I stand to lose near on 40% of the value of the thing just because it's three weeks old. Almost tempted to keep it but I don't really have a use for it and it'll just sit up a corner until I sell it in a year's time for even less...

It's all been a rather expensive exercise...

How much did you pay and what price would you sell it for now? I'd be interested.


Yeah nobody on here I've noticed seems to really understand the immense efficiency macOS enables. Gestures and a good trackpad save a LOT of time. My issue with moving away from the Mac is that the learning curve simply is not good enough for my career. The Mac itself, being the only Mac user in a Windows company, offers such efficiency and power - coupled with my knowledge of it and its apps - that, though it's not a competition, nobody can match.

Windows certainly crashes more, I'm unofficially the ICT support manager at my work and the number of times restarting magically works is shocking. The amount of times I need to reinstall printer drivers, go to settings and 'Repair Office 365 for Business'. Windows is bad at file format extension management too, I once had a colleague install a PDF software package and suddenly Excel files etc were only able to be opened by the new programme and trying to do Open With > Excel was showing an error... Terrible mess. In theory, beautiful and in theory more business orientated than the Mac, but I'll believe it when I see it. I've considered buying PDF Expert but Preview and exporting things as PDF files has served me remarkably well!

Yeah, though I'm tempted by the grass is greener argument myself, your thread has made me remember the small things I'm taking for granted about my Mac. The superb screen, TrueTone (which, when you're sitting in front of a window is doing more for you than you could imagine), amazing speakers, reliable battery life, blazing quad core performance which seems to outperform my friends custom build PCs with multiples of the processing power etc etc. I'd be a real fool to step away. And yet they fit it in this slim package. The tradeoffs are nothing, really.

I think Windows is good when you 'need' it, but to be honest the only time I use it is on Parallels is to recreate situations my colleagues have and produce self-follow manuals for how to do things, so that I can include screenshots taken in Windows.

ThinkPads look great, the price and performance I drool over - on the website. It's a bit like Android phones, some amazing hardware but let down by the software. The Dell XPS, not a fan, but it's good too, hardware wise. Wish Sony themselves still made laptops.

I'm unsure if any of these devices can live up to the everyday reality of the Mac experience though. And even having to pick up my phone to reply to texts, that's a huge inefficiency. I'm surprised the efficiency of the Mac isn't mentioned more here on the 'keep a Mac' side of the argument. It's what's keeping me here! Second to the ecosystem lock in.

Don't worry about the keyboard I guess, Apple's being criticised about it so something will give. And I think they'll be generous with people affected. They certainly bent over backwards for me knowing my long history with Apple and sub-par experiences, that gave me a lot of confidence in the brand.

 

[Frankied22]

How much did you pay and what price would you sell it for now? I'd be interested.


Yeah nobody on here I've noticed seems to really understand the immense efficiency macOS enables. Gestures and a good trackpad save a LOT of time. My issue with moving away from the Mac is that the learning curve simply is not good enough for my career. The Mac itself, being the only Mac user in a Windows company, offers such efficiency and power - coupled with my knowledge of it and its apps - that, though it's not a competition, nobody can match.

Windows certainly crashes more, I'm unofficially the ICT support manager at my work and the number of times restarting magically works is shocking. The amount of times I need to reinstall printer drivers, go to settings and 'Repair Office 365 for Business'. Windows is bad at file format extension management too, I once had a colleague install a PDF software package and suddenly Excel files etc were only able to be opened by the new programme and trying to do Open With > Excel was showing an error... Terrible mess. In theory, beautiful and in theory more business orientated than the Mac, but I'll believe it when I see it. I've considered buying PDF Expert but Preview and exporting things as PDF files has served me remarkably well!

Yeah, though I'm tempted by the grass is greener argument myself, your thread has made me remember the small things I'm taking for granted about my Mac. The superb screen, TrueTone (which, when you're sitting in front of a window is doing more for you than you could imagine), amazing speakers, reliable battery life, blazing quad core performance which seems to outperform my friends custom build PCs with multiples of the processing power etc etc. I'd be a real fool to step away. And yet they fit it in this slim package. The tradeoffs are nothing, really.

I think Windows is good when you 'need' it, but to be honest the only time I use it is on Parallels is to recreate situations my colleagues have and produce self-follow manuals for how to do things, so that I can include screenshots taken in Windows.

ThinkPads look great, the price and performance I drool over - on the website. It's a bit like Android phones, some amazing hardware but let down by the software. The Dell XPS, not a fan, but it's good too, hardware wise. Wish Sony themselves still made laptops.

I'm unsure if any of these devices can live up to the everyday reality of the Mac experience though. And even having to pick up my phone to reply to texts, that's a huge inefficiency. I'm surprised the efficiency of the Mac isn't mentioned more here on the 'keep a Mac' side of the argument. It's what's keeping me here! Second to the ecosystem lock in.

Don't worry about the keyboard I guess, Apple's being criticised about it so something will give. And I think they'll be generous with people affected. They certainly bent over backwards for me knowing my long history with Apple and sub-par experiences, that gave me a lot of confidence in the brand.

As someone who is very familiar with both windows and macos I agree completely. macOS has so many features that make it more efficient and streamlined. I am also surprised more people don’t talk about it on here. I think a lot of people just don’t use a Mac or if they do they are not actually doing anything work related on it and measuring productivity and efficiency boosts compared to trying to do the same tasks on windows.

 

[c0ppo]

Don't worry about the keyboard I guess, Apple's being criticised about it so something will give. And I think they'll be generous with people affected. They certainly bent over backwards for me knowing my long history with Apple and sub-par experiences, that gave me a lot of confidence in the brand.

About a lot of stuff regarding Windows I agree with you. And on all of Mac OS stuff I completely agree with you.

But this last statement is where I can't agree with you at all. Something will give? Butterfly keyboards are from 2015. So 4 years old now. And there are 3 iterations of it. All failed miserably.

I myself had multiple failures. My company banned further MBP 2016+ purchases. We are using literally hardware from 2015 to test out and work on our iOS software. Why? Well, because of the keyboard!

Apples repair service is great. But it takes two weeks to repair a stuck key on a keyboard! 2 weeks for just one key. Well, call me crazy, but that doesn't sound like apple is giving anything. We are talking about 3000$+ devices here, not some random gadgets or toys.

Would I be using mac OS on my x1e if it was supported? Of course I would. But it isn't. So I'm using linux & win10. Why? Because current state of macs is rather sad. We have keyboards that fail, and fail really often. I'm 35 years old, before butterfly keyboards I haven't had a single keyboard fail on me. And I'm using PC's since 1991.

Only fails I did have is when I spilled something on it. Or break it down on purpose while losing when gaming.

Keyboard is the most important input device on ANY computer. No matter what OS you use, or what you like/hate, keyboard is THE most integral part of any computer. Especially a PRO device.

People don't think about keyboards at all. Why? Because they don't have to. Keyboards on even 200$ laptop PC works like a charm. Some are better, some are worse. But they all work. Except butterfly keyboards.

So for me, a developer, a big part of any computer is a keyboard. I can do my work in Windows, or even Linux. But if keyboard doesn't work, well, then I lose money. And my company loses money.

So no matter how much I like Mac OS, Mac OS is the worst choice there is at the moment. Just because of the keyboard. And replacing broken keyboard with another keyboard that will break eventually isn't a fix

As someone who is very familiar with both windows and macos I agree completely. macOS has so many features that make it more efficient and streamlined. I am also surprised more people don’t talk about it on here. I think a lot of people just don’t use a Mac or if they do they are not actually doing anything work related on it and measuring productivity and efficiency boosts compared to trying to do the same tasks on windows.

Well, I use my computers for a lot of entertainment. You could easily say I'm addicted to them. And I could easily use windows/mac/linux without a mouse or a trackpad. Because I'm really a fast typist, and I really do LOVE keyboard shortcuts. I love them so much that I memorize any kb shortcut I could possibly use.

But since keyboards on MBP are a complete junk, and fail really easily, I can say that a lot of people simply don't appreciate a good keyboard. Like on thinkpads for example. Excellent feel, haptics, and most important - they work without any issues. Even if you spill a glass of wine on them. Actually, you could spill a bottle. Or even some dust. They would still work. And a working keyboard is really important for efficiency

 

[SDColorado]

... I think a lot of people just don’t use a Mac or if they do they are not actually doing anything work related on it and measuring productivity and efficiency boosts compared to trying to do the same tasks on windows.

I don't think that is accurate. After all, this is an "Alternatives to Mac Hardware" subforum on Mac Rumors, not Windows Central. I would guess the majority of posters in this sub-forum are primarily 4 groups, 1) Mac users who don't plan to switch, at least not at this time, but are curious about the alternatives (2) Mac users who are thinking about making a switch and want more info/discussion on the alternatives (3) Duel Platform users like myself (primarily Mac in my case) who have a foot in both platforms. (4) Former Mac users who may switch back to Mac at some point ... and some who may not. But I believe they are all plenty familiar with Macs.

But I think most posters in the subforum use or have recently used a Mac and definitely are using them or have used them in all manner of ways, including professionally.

 

[Mendota]

Switching over and learning Windows 10 is a lot harder than it was when I switched. I switched to a Surface during Windows 8 and when it comes to 2 in 1's tablets and touch screens, it was so much more intuitive than MacOS, iOS, Windows 7 and Windows 10. I know a lot of people hated on Windows 8 but that's because they didn't understand it. I wish able would have bought some of these gestures into iOS because it would be so much more natural. Watch this video and see. If Windows 8 came out now instead of years ago I think a lot more people would have loved it now that tablets with desktop OS's are mainstream.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...00FDB753D8FFA192235D00FDB753D8FF&&FORM=VDRVRV
[doublepost=1551562230][/doublepost]
I used to be that way when I was a teenager lol. Apple was my religion!

Thank you... I too loved Windows 8, and it was frustrating to hear people hating on it without giving it a chance. But that is how it goes people are very resistant to change.
[doublepost=1551662291][/doublepost]

How much did you pay and what price would you sell it for now? I'd be interested.


Yeah nobody on here I've noticed seems to really understand the immense efficiency macOS enables. Gestures and a good trackpad save a LOT of time. My issue with moving away from the Mac is that the learning curve simply is not good enough for my career. The Mac itself, being the only Mac user in a Windows company, offers such efficiency and power - coupled with my knowledge of it and its apps - that, though it's not a competition, nobody can match.

Windows certainly crashes more, I'm unofficially the ICT support manager at my work and the number of times restarting magically works is shocking. The amount of times I need to reinstall printer drivers, go to settings and 'Repair Office 365 for Business'. Windows is bad at file format extension management too, I once had a colleague install a PDF software package and suddenly Excel files etc were only able to be opened by the new programme and trying to do Open With > Excel was showing an error... Terrible mess. In theory, beautiful and in theory more business orientated than the Mac, but I'll believe it when I see it. I've considered buying PDF Expert but Preview and exporting things as PDF files has served me remarkably well!

Yeah, though I'm tempted by the grass is greener argument myself, your thread has made me remember the small things I'm taking for granted about my Mac. The superb screen, TrueTone (which, when you're sitting in front of a window is doing more for you than you could imagine), amazing speakers, reliable battery life, blazing quad core performance which seems to outperform my friends custom build PCs with multiples of the processing power etc etc. I'd be a real fool to step away. And yet they fit it in this slim package. The tradeoffs are nothing, really.

I think Windows is good when you 'need' it, but to be honest the only time I use it is on Parallels is to recreate situations my colleagues have and produce self-follow manuals for how to do things, so that I can include screenshots taken in Windows.

ThinkPads look great, the price and performance I drool over - on the website. It's a bit like Android phones, some amazing hardware but let down by the software. The Dell XPS, not a fan, but it's good too, hardware wise. Wish Sony themselves still made laptops.

I'm unsure if any of these devices can live up to the everyday reality of the Mac experience though. And even having to pick up my phone to reply to texts, that's a huge inefficiency. I'm surprised the efficiency of the Mac isn't mentioned more here on the 'keep a Mac' side of the argument. It's what's keeping me here! Second to the ecosystem lock in.

Don't worry about the keyboard I guess, Apple's being criticised about it so something will give. And I think they'll be generous with people affected. They certainly bent over backwards for me knowing my long history with Apple and sub-par experiences, that gave me a lot of confidence in the brand.

I haven't had a "crash" or issue on Windows in over seven years. I can't say the same for Mac. I run clean systems, no malware, and no dodgy software. However having worked often on "public" computers Windows, Mac, and Linux, I often had issues due to the way users, (many computer illiterate) used them. Windows allows you more freedom and for some that leads to problems when they don't know what they are doing. Any well maintained and properly used computer should run without issues and that has been my experience with all three operating systems.

As for gestures that is something that Mac had trained it users to like. I don't care about gestures on my devices and that is to include my phone. Keyboard, mouse, and touch. I don't really like track pads and only use them in cramped spaces. This just goes to show it is all in what you get use to. I prefer Windows because I prefer power and choice. I can do anything on Windows, with Mac there are limitations.

 

[0989382]

Because of the keyboard I’m going to trade in for a Mac Mini and an iPad. Again, because macOS is that much more efficient it’s worth making the trade off.

More power and more portability. And a desktop setup at work and home

 

[Queen6]

Thank you... I too loved Windows 8, and it was frustrating to hear people hating on it without giving it a chance. But that is how it goes people are very resistant to change.
[doublepost=1551662291][/doublepost]

I haven't had a "crash" or issue on Windows in over seven years. I can't say the same for Mac. I run clean systems, no malware, and no dodgy software. However having worked often on "public" computers Windows, Mac, and Linux, I often had issues due to the way users, (many computer illiterate) used them. Windows allows you more freedom and for some that leads to problems when they don't know what they are doing. Any well maintained and properly used computer should run without issues and that has been my experience with all three operating systems.

As for gestures that is something that Mac had trained it users to like. I don't care about gestures on my devices and that is to include my phone. Keyboard, mouse, and touch. I don't really like track pads and only use them in cramped spaces. This just goes to show it is all in what you get use to. I prefer Windows because I prefer power and choice. I can do anything on Windows, with Mac there are limitations.

I gave up with the Mac and the OS was part of the issue, being less stable than W10 for my professional needs. At home all my Mac's behave as expected. While in the field on an engineering project they all rapidly fall down (12", 13" & 15") either locking up or core applications crashing and that gets old very fast as it costs time & money. I asked a colleague as he too is a Mac fan exactly same scenario; he too now uses W10 professionally for exactly the same reasons, as the Core Rot is well and truly obvious...

Mac's offer a more polished experience superficially, however they are well behind PC's in the stakes of being efficient and stable. I still have multiple Mac's to this day however they are relegated to more basic usage as that's what they fair best at now. Apple has tacked on countless "bells & whistles" to impress the masses, yet not advanced productively or corrected long known issues with the OS.

W10 is far from perfect, equally it will continue to advance as Microsoft doe take ownership, while Apple is overly focused on IOS devices. Had Apple put more effort into the Mac the desktop OS footprint would be far greater and the profits, as undeniably the underpinnings of macOS are far better than Windows 10.

As I've often stated if macOS was so very superior and Apple hardware so much better I'd be responding on it as it would be in my own best interests. Sadly it's not and the vast majority of professionals and companies clearly believe the same as in the real scope of things the cost of the actual hardware is very less...

Q-6

 

[Mendota]

I gave up with the Mac and the OS was part of the issue, being less stable than W10 for my professional needs. At home all my Mac's behave as expected. While in the field on an engineering project they all rapidly fall down (12", 13" & 15") either locking up or core applications crashing and that gets old very fast as it costs time & money. I asked a colleague as he too is a Mac fan exactly same scenario; he too now uses W10 professionally for exactly the same reasons, as the Core Rot is well and truly obvious...

Mac's offer a more polished experience superficially, however they are well behind PC's in the stakes of being efficient and stable. I still have multiple Mac's to this day however they are relegated to more basic usage as that's what they fair best at now. Apple has tacked on countless "bells & whistles" to impress the masses, yet not advanced productively or corrected long known issues with the OS.

W10 is far from perfect, equally it will continue to advance as Microsoft doe take ownership, while Apple is overly focused on IOS devices. Had Apple put more effort into the Mac the desktop OS footprint would be far greater and the profits, as undeniably the underpinnings of macOS are far better than Windows 10.

As I've often stated if macOS was so very superior and Apple hardware so much better I'd be responding on it as it would be in my own best interests. Sadly it's not and the vast majority of professionals and companies clearly believe the same as in the real scope of things the cost of the actual hardware is very less...

Q-6

Well I can't disagree with anything you have stated so well. I have had few issues with my Macs because they have always been used only for the most basic tasks. I don't even try to run Painter on them as the performance is less than stellar. Some might say: "Well you are running an older machine (2012 i5 Mac) so of course your top of the line Windows machine is better." The thing is I also run Painter on a Surface 3 (not Surface pro) with an Atom processor and it runs Painter better than the Mac so...

At the end of the day Microsoft created and cares about Windows. I don't think Apple has ever really cared about software. It is just a means to an end for them. Most of their pro products they lifted from others to include Final Cut, Logic, and MacOS. I don't know where they intend to go, but I have an idea that it is only about the most basic consumers and not serious users. The kinds of people that can get excited over iMessage and AirPlay. Nothing against either of those products or the people that like them, but I need more than that to excite me.

 

[Queen6]

Well I can't disagree with anything you have stated so well. I have had few issues with my Macs because they have always been used only for the most basic tasks. I don't even try to run Painter on them as the performance is less than stellar. Some might say: "Well you are running an older machine (2012 i5 Mac) so of course your top of the line Windows machine is better." The thing is I also run Painter on a Surface 3 (not Surface pro) with an Atom processor and it runs Painter better than the Mac so...

At the end of the day Microsoft created and cares about Windows. I don't think Apple has ever really cared about software. It is just a means to an end for them. Most of their pro products they lifted from others to include Final Cut, Logic, and MacOS. I don't know where they intend to go, but I have an idea that it is only about the most basic consumers and not serious users. The kinds of people that can get excited over iMessage and AirPlay. Nothing against either of those products or the people that like them, but I need more than that to excite me.

I need, as do many others; reliability, stability, performance and usability at appropriate price point. Sadly Apple is failing to deliver. It's a shame, yet also very much Apple's loss as it will most definitely loose ever more professional endorsement...

Just comes to a point where it makes no sense to continue, add in the keyboard fiasco and other design issue's it all adds up to a lack of focus on Apple's behalf. Coasting as some would say, in some respects who can blame Apple for taking the easy route when so many have such low standards and fawn over everything and anything without any question...

This aspect of MR is a testament to the same paradigm shift. A few years ago unthinkable, today necessary, and that one firmly belongs to Apple

Q-6

 

[derekamoss]

Thank you... I too loved Windows 8, and it was frustrating to hear people hating on it without giving it a chance. But that is how it goes people are very resistant to change.
[doublepost=1551662291][/doublepost]

I haven't had a "crash" or issue on Windows in over seven years. I can't say the same for Mac. I run clean systems, no malware, and no dodgy software. However having worked often on "public" computers Windows, Mac, and Linux, I often had issues due to the way users, (many computer illiterate) used them. Windows allows you more freedom and for some that leads to problems when they don't know what they are doing. Any well maintained and properly used computer should run without issues and that has been my experience with all three operating systems.

As for gestures that is something that Mac had trained it users to like. I don't care about gestures on my devices and that is to include my phone. Keyboard, mouse, and touch. I don't really like track pads and only use them in cramped spaces. This just goes to show it is all in what you get use to. I prefer Windows because I prefer power and choice. I can do anything on Windows, with Mac there are limitations.

Windows 8 puts MacOs iOs, Windows 10 and android to shame. Not to mention it was more stable than windows 7 and much more fine tuned. It actually had UI consistency which no OS right now really has

 

[servnhimusa]

Five days on I'm loving the productivity boost being back on a Mac has given me. It really does make a huge difference. I'm not allowing food anywhere near the keyboard!

One real blow is the terrible resale value of the Surface Laptop 2. The retailer (Argos, UK) won't take it back because it's not actually faulty and Microsoft will only offer an exchange (and after ten minutes on the phone to somewhere in India still trying to spell out my email address I hung up before I put my fist through a window!)

The facts that Windows crashes more than Mac OS and that Microsoft's touchpads aren't as good as Apple's don't add up to enough of a reason for anyone to offer a refund, sadly. I've wasted so much billable time I just can't mess around anymore.

But judging by the prices on eBay, I stand to lose near on 40% of the value of the thing just because it's three weeks old. Almost tempted to keep it but I don't really have a use for it and it'll just sit up a corner until I sell it in a year's time for even less...

It's all been a rather expensive exercise...

[doublepost=1557026875][/doublepost]Interesting. I have yet to have Windows 10 crash. In fact, I have found it as stable as mac.

 

[SDColorado]

[doublepost=1557026875][/doublepost]Interesting. I have yet to have Windows 10 crash. In fact, I have found it as stable as mac.

Most of my "crashes" these days seem to be IOS related. iPad, Phone, Apple watch will all occasionally just up and reboot

 

[petvas]

Five days on I'm loving the productivity boost being back on a Mac has given me. It really does make a huge difference. I'm not allowing food anywhere near the keyboard!

One real blow is the terrible resale value of the Surface Laptop 2. The retailer (Argos, UK) won't take it back because it's not actually faulty and Microsoft will only offer an exchange (and after ten minutes on the phone to somewhere in India still trying to spell out my email address I hung up before I put my fist through a window!)

The facts that Windows crashes more than Mac OS and that Microsoft's touchpads aren't as good as Apple's don't add up to enough of a reason for anyone to offer a refund, sadly. I've wasted so much billable time I just can't mess around anymore.

But judging by the prices on eBay, I stand to lose near on 40% of the value of the thing just because it's three weeks old. Almost tempted to keep it but I don't really have a use for it and it'll just sit up a corner until I sell it in a year's time for even less...

It's all been a rather expensive exercise...

This is another issue with Windows hardware. Its retail value is extremely low when compared to Apple‘s hardware. Anyway, I wanted to comment on your original post.
It took you 3 weeks to realize what took me almost 4 years
I have been using Windows, and especially Surface hardware for the last 4 years. The first gen Surface Book, the second generation Surface Book and many Surface Pros, including the Surface Pro 6. My experience has been more or less the same across this hardware:

• The hardware is very nice, almost up to a level with Apple. Apple‘s hardware is still better though.
• The keyboards on Surface devices are great, with no reliability issues whatsoever. I like the butterfly keyboard also but I am afraid that it will break at some point..
• Windows as an OS is just not so well thought out as macOS. Performance is not consistent across the board. A reboot almost always helps, but this is not how I want to use my computers.
• I have been using many Microsoft apps, including Outlook, and they never felt snappy. Outlook is a performance hog and I don’t understand how it’s possible to perform so purely on system with SSD and 16GB of RAM...
• Many small things disturb me on Windows, things that I have on macOS and I am used to love. You mentioned Quick look and I will add Time Machine and the way you control how apps are being installed and what processes start automatically on a Mac. Despite the fact that I am an expert on Windows (this is after all part of my job), I hate the way its underpinnings work..
• In Windows I couldn‘t find a way to reliable stream video content to my UltraHD TV. Getting a Mac and an AppleTV made things so much easier. Actually, as a result of that inability of Windows, I watched much less video content these last four years...I have tried a lot of solutions, including Plex, but nothing works as good as AirPlay. Miracast and DLNA suck big time..
• Font rendering: I prefer the way macOS renders fonts
• Internet browser: I like how Safari uses gestures and smooth scrolling. This kind of smooth scrolling can be found in MS Edge only, but Edge has so many other issues, which make it impossible to use for longer periods of time...
• Windows is a strange mix of Win32 and UWP apps. Many preferences exist twice and that makes no sense whatsoever.

After almost 4 years I returned to macOS and I have a MacBook Pro 13“, which I love. I am not looking to change again anytime soon ...