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If Apple thought the future of ports is USB-C, why is Apple bringing back more types of ports?
- Thread starter Kung gu
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Posters, here on MR, making the same arguments people make now, but with even more confidence about things with even less information.
I'll try to find some examples to link to.
I guess it depends on where you live and work. At my university I can definitely see a trend towards HDMI sources, but the chance of finding a VGA-only port is still high enough that if you were to show an important presentation (as the comment I was replying to suggested) you wouldn't risk not bringing an VGA adapter with you.
Sure, makes sense - still a lot of legacy devices in places like libraries and universities that don’t have the budget to replace equipment at regular intervals. That’s what kept VGA in courthouses until the last year or so.
According to the Apple web page, the M1 Mini supports HDMI 2.0. The new shiny, though, is HDMI 2.1, with 8k support, and that’s the one with the thunderbolt-bothering 48G bandwidth.
AFAIK most type-c to HDMI adapters are DisplayPort-to-HDMI so they use DisplayPort alt mode. There is a HDMI alt mode spec, but if anybody has seen it in the wild do tell.
There seem to be plenty of DP-based type-c to HDMI 2.0 adapters around.
I believe that the wrinkle with HDMI 2.1 is that it supports *uncompressed* 48G whereas DisplayPort 1.4 has gone for “visually lossless” (translation: lossy) compression, which would rule out DP1.4 to 2.1 or 2.1-over-TB3. Of course, the Lensman arms race continues and DP 2.0 will see HDMI p’s 48G and raise it... aw heck, whatever... but AFAIK DP 2.0 gear is still rocking-horse poo. The USB4 spec supports DP 2.0 alt mode (so HDMI 2.1 bridges would be possible) - but if/when it will be implemented in an actual product...
Bear in mind that the USB-C spec included DP1.4 alt mode from day one, but Thunderbolt didn’t support it until a couple of years ago, and a large proportion of USB-C implementations used the Thunderbolt chipset.
I think if, next week, Apple launched a MBP with HDMI 2.1, it would be a (temporarily) unassailable case for a dedicated port... for anybody more interested in connecting a 16k display than plugging in a 10-year-old data Projector to give a PowerPoint explaining why you needed a 16k display...
Don‘t hold your breath... on either count.
God damn there were a lot of threads about this **** in January.
I've haven't found the posts I have stronger memories of yet, and it's possible they were moderated or edited, or in the other Bloomberg-article related thread that I haven't even looked at yet. I'll keep looking tomorrow if I remember.
Anyway.
The first one is just for ***** and giggles because you yourself were apparently concerned about losing USB-C charging at the time too. Not really sure what you've seen to ease your concern.
"Nobody is saying that USB-C/TB are going away, just that some of the old ones are coming back. People who want standard ports win - you don't lose."
...was a 100% correct summary of the evidence available in January before the stolen schematics appeared showing only 3 ports.
But, hey - no excuses- so if/when the 3-port/magsafe/HDMI/SD MBP is confirmed as an actual product I will happily admit I was wrong about that - as long as everybody who ever said things like "Apple won't/shouldn't bring back SD/HDMI/Magsafe because nobody wants them anymore" is happy to join in.
Of course, the other thing that has happened since January is that the M1 iMac has appeared, in two otherwise-identical models with different port configurations - food for thought - maybe Apple will sell you back your 'lost' TB3 port just because they can. But now it's really time to wait for the product to drop, because there are 101 explanations for those schematics, not to mention several ways they could be implemented - including the possibility that Apple might just plain cut corners and underdeliver (remember I also suggested that the third port might just be USB 3.1?)
The next gen MacBook Pros aren't a low-end iMac, they are high end PRO machines. I expect the 3 USB-C ports to all be Thunderbolt.
It's a 100% correct summary, if you ignore all context of Apple's history.
The number of times they've simply "added a port" compared to the times when a port has been replaced by something else, are insignificant.
The difference is that in pretty much every historic case, the port being replaced could be supported via an adapter or different cable.
Serial: possible over USB;
ADB: possible over USB;
Floppies: possible over USB;
USB1,2: Possible over USB3;
Firewire 400: possible over Firewire800;
Optical discs: possible over USB or Firewire;
Firewire 800: possible over Thunderbolt;
Mini DisplayPort: possible over Thunderbolt;
HDMI: possible over USB-C;
USB3: possible over USB-C;
SD Card: possible over USB-C;
MagSafe: possible over USb-C;
USB-C/TB3: impossible over HDMI;
You're just using the same logic as people used in January, to claim that "adding back HDMI won't affect TB3 ports".
Well it's a pro machine so I expect.
Maybe the next deep-dive I should do on comment history is to find all the times Apple has released a product that didn't match people's expectations.
I haven't done much research on that yet, but I have a hunch I'll find a lot more than 3 posts, in a lot less time.
It only supports 1.4b, so, 4K at 30Hz.
The spec is the responsibility of the protocol maintainer (i.e. HDMI Forum in this case) and they've apparently decided it's not worth the effort.
That's why you don't see HDMI 2.0 passive USB-C adapters/cables.
There are USB-C to HDMI 2.1 adapters and cables on the market now, that support 8K@60Hz. I haven't found any that mention 10K support, which DP 1.4 would not support - presumably because there aren't enough/any hosts supporting DP2.0 yet.
HDMI 2.1 specifies DSC (the same compression DisplayPort uses, and 'created') for anything above 8K with 4:2:0 sampling.
It's possible. Anything is possible.
Just like, it was possible Apple could have included HDMI 2.0 (from 2013) in their 2015 MacBook Pro and supported 4K@60Hz on it.
But they didn't.
I don't think they ever made anything that was not complained about extensively. The only product with relatively few complains I can remember was the 16" MBP (but then people probably complained about the Touch Bar or the lack of USB-A ?)
The thing is, pointing out issues with a machine is understandable. Even if I don't agree that the issues are a significant problem, highlighting shortcomings from your perspective, is a common step when assessing a new product you may wish to buy.
The problem I have is easily 50% of the 'complaints' I've seen are ridiculous non-issues, born largely out of the expectations and assumptions people made up for themselves/based on "rumours".
@theluggage will presumably be disappointed if the next MBP has no HDMI port. I don't know if it means he'll skip it or whatever but I can understand the basic concept that he has a use case for a dedicated port more than a 'flexible' port, so if it has one, he's happy about it, and if it doesn't have one, he's less happy or disappointed. I don't agree with the need for the port but I understand why he would react either way.
How many comments are just complaining that the new iMac doesn't have an apple logo on the 'chin'? You might as well complain about Tim Cook's haircut the day he recorded the release video.
Ah, yes. The "stolen schematics show a HDMI port" -> "Apple is bringing back USB-A" thing. Humanity is scary
Exactly. Or "it shows a HDMI port, so it must be HDMI 2.1", right?Ah, yes. The "stolen schematics show a HDMI port" -> "Apple is bringing back USB-A" thing. Humanity is scary
Or if it turns out the schematic was for a prototype/unreleased model, and it has none of those ports. Or any number of other things.
The thing about the whole USB-C vs. all the other ports discussion, to me, is the same as the eternal struggle with the office thermostat.
Half the office is too cold, the other half too hot. The thing is, you can always put a sweater, sweatshirt, coat on to keep warm — but if it's too hot, you can't exactly take your clothes off and cool down in the office pool.
So with all USB-C ports, I can buy a dongle if I really need one. But putting HDMI, USB-A, Display Port, SD Card slots, or whatever else people want on the machine is forcing me to pay for things I don't want or need—and at the same time taking away things I can actually use, even if it is only one USB-C port. Apple is not going to ADD ports.
They're going to replace something with something else. There's only so much I/O they can put on a device.
Half the office is too cold, the other half too hot. The thing is, you can always put a sweater, sweatshirt, coat on to keep warm — but if it's too hot, you can't exactly take your clothes off and cool down in the office pool.
So with all USB-C ports, I can buy a dongle if I really need one. But putting HDMI, USB-A, Display Port, SD Card slots, or whatever else people want on the machine is forcing me to pay for things I don't want or need—and at the same time taking away things I can actually use, even if it is only one USB-C port. Apple is not going to ADD ports.
They're going to replace something with something else. There's only so much I/O they can put on a device.
Again, you can’t get the full capabilities of an HDMI 2.1 port via a USB-C port (unless Apple plans to support alt mode 2, which maybe they will)
True, but irrelevant - the 48Gbps is uncompressed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_2.1:
...but you're right, it does look as if USB-C to HDMI 2.1 is possible: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cable-Matters-48Gbps-Adapter-Supporting/dp/B08MSWMXT4 - because, as I said, USB4/TB4 supports DP 2.0.
When you selectively quoted me on that, you should have noted the "if" and maybe included the sentence that followed it saying "Don't hold your breath". Maybe I was wrong about a HDMI 2.1 port being a big advantage... but I certainly wasn't swearing blind that it would happen or claiming to have proved anything.
People here - on all 6 sides of the argument - really need to make up their mind whether those leaked schematics are the undeniable gospel truth that proves everybody wrong, or just random unreliable rumours that don't prove a thing.
...because if they prove that Apple is prepared to drop a TB port for "legacy" ports, they also disprove all the claims that there's no use/demand for HDMI/SD/Magsafe - Apple has rather better market research than anybody here. You can't have it both ways. Hopefully, we'll know soon.
...but then Apple and their more fanatical supporters set great store in how beautiful Apple's designs are, all of Apples promotions make a big deal of the range of colours and how unbelievably thin it is. Appearance has been a major selling point for Apple products since the original Mac, so criticism of purely cosmetic points is completely legitimate.
For what it's worth (we're arguing about what it would have been reasonable to think in January, before a major bit of evidence appeared, for pity's sake) the only remotely relevant example where Apple brought back a "legacy" port, by popular demand, after dropping it, is - if I recall correctly - once, when they dropped Firewire from the MacBook a few years too soon and then brought it back. No other ports were removed.
I think you're the one who needs to heed the wisdom of Big Bird - totally removing a type of port is not the same as reducing the number of ports from 4 to 3. Plus:
6-12 x USB-C/TB devices: possible with adapters on a machine with 2 -3 USB4 ports with dedicated controllers - impossible on a current machine with 4 x TB3 ports,
Yes, the only current USB4 hub is designed as a desktop charging dock - but it is brand new technology, and the one product that could actually create market demand for a mobile version isn't even announced yet. Still, 6+ TB ports on the desktop is going to be better than you've got on your desk right now.
The range of actually available USB-C devices in 2016 was pretty rubbish, too.
"alt mode 2". This phrase alone says a lot about how much you understand what you're trying to speak with authority about.
I assume you mean DisplayPort 2.0, which is usable via USB-C's DisplayPort Alt Mode. As opposed to the Thunderbolt Alt-Mode, or the HDMI Alt-Mode, or the MHL Alt-Mode.
It's true that you can't support the full spec of HDMI 2.1, from a DisplayPort 1.4 source. You can support 8K displays at 60hz, which is what most people are likely to want from HDMI 2.1; But you can't for instance support 8K @ 120Hz, or 10K.
But your claim also misses out a piece of logic: There's no reason to assume a HDMI port would necessarily be 2.1 either; The 2015 MBP's HDMI port, used the 2011 HDMI 1.4b; Not the 2013 HDMI 2.0.
Just because HDMI 2.1 exists, doesn't mean they're going to adopt it for this.
Creating a scenario in your head where they specifically do support HDMI 2.1 for that port, but not DP 2.0 (both of which have been out for several years now) just highlights how much ******** people will come up with to justify their desires for a single-use port.
USB-A, HDMI, SD Card - you get those in $100 tv streamer boxes, they're not a significant BOM item in a $2000 laptop.
TB4/USB4 are expensive both in terms of cost and in terms of the amount of CPU/GPU resources tied up by each controller... and with something like DisplayPort/HDMI video vs USB3/TB data, a "universal" port forces two independent resources (eDP video streams and PCIe data lanes) to compete for the same hole in the case.
For people who don't need more than a couple of ports with better-than-USB3.0 speed (which is good for all but the highest-end external SSDs) then a 4-TB-port Mac is forcing them to pay for 2 expensive TB ports that they don't need and forcing them to use dongles for the devices that do. So, no, it's not the office thermostat (where turning it down also saves a shedload of money and maybe a few penguins).
Anyway, if the 3-port design happens, there are various possibilities:
"Glass half empty" is that they've cheaped-out on I/O with the M1x, in which case don't be surprised if port 3 is just a USB 3 port (like the extra ports on the iMac).
"Glass half full" is that we're getting three TB/USB4 ports each with a dedicated controller which means 50% more TB bandwidth than the previous 4-port Mac and compatibility with new USB4 hubs to fully exploit that by adding 3 or more extra TB ports. To go from that to 4 ports would either mean (a) adding a fourth TB controller to the M1x (expensive/more power consumption) or (b) building in a 2-port controller to turn 3 ports into 4 (expensive, power, different capabilities on different ports).
"This glass is cracked" - Jony is still in da house, so the exciting new MacBook Pro is 5mm smaller than the last one - isn't it pretty.
Of course, the real solution would be for the 4th biggest personal computer manufacturer in the world to somehow contrive to come out with more than one design of flagship pro laptop rather than trying to be one-size-fits-all... badly.
To be fair, TB3 ports specifically don't 'tie up' DP streams. They're available but they're not fixed to a specific port, so you don't require x DP streams to support x TB3 ports. On the intel models this has never been the bottleneck anyway - they had four ports, and supported four external displays.
Maybe because it was based on a 2012 design from before HDMI 2.0 was announced? So what? The 2016 MBP's TB/USB-C implementation only supported DP 1.2a, not the 2016 DP 1.4 standard (even though the USB-C alt mode spec included DP1.4) and didn't get it until the Titan Ridge controllers came out in 2018... and even that tells us zero about whether an unannounced MBP will support DP2.0, HDMI 2.1, both or neither. I don't know why you seem to think that citing random factoids about nearly 10 year old designs somehow disproves people's speculations about unannounced 2021 designs.
True, but once you move to more than one TB controller (and it's looking like 1 controller per port is the new normal), that still comes at the expense of extra switching circuitry to deliver a potential two streams to each controller (vs. one to a dedicated HDMI port ore zero to a SD, Magsafe, USB-A etc.) I've no idea how that scales with the number of streams being switched but its the sort of thing that could easily go exponential...
Apple could have designed the M1 to support 2 displays via TB3 by turning off the internal display when 2 TB displays were connected (which would have been OK if you wanted to use the Air in clamshell mode andworked even better on the M1 Mini - not so much on the iMac) - it just comes down to cost, complexity and trusting the chip designers to choose the best compromise.
Not the 13" 4-port MacBook Pros - they only support two external displays. Probably because that's either the maximum that the intel iGPU could support, or the maximum that Apple thought it could support well. The 15/16" MBPs have more powerful discrete GPUs.
Since the M1x/M2 sounds like it is going to have an integrated GPU (either on-die or on-package) supporting 5 simultaneous streams (one for internal, 4 for TB3 to match the Intel 16") ...maybe at higher resolutions/data rates than before... And for a Mac you really need back that up with the GPU grunt for scaling to get decent real estate on a 4k display. That isn't going to come easily...
Frankly, that HDMI on the leaked schematics could be anything from full-spec HDMI 2.1 to USB-driven DisplayLink (yes, ugh, but that's the dongle-free Powerpoint sorted...)
That was the point I was trying to make earlier. If computer makers would stop accommodating these peripheral makers and go with one connection port type (for the sake of argument, USB-C), the peripheral makers would be forced to use the same port for their connection methods.
I'm not in love with USB-C... I hate how it can be used with several different types of I/O (thunderbolt, USB, different speeds, etc.) But it seems like it's the most versatile. Then again, now that I think about it, USB has been a complete disaster when it comes to compatibility for general use. I mean, look at this mess:
