Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Would you buy an ARM iMac?


  • Total voters
    215
To answer the OP: No. I’d wait for the second generation. Purchase history has told me to wait one gen, when Apple introduce new hardware, as they always seem to be underpowered- 2012 Retina MacBook Pro, 3rd gen iPad. I didn’t get the first 5K iMac, I waited for the 2017 model.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CmdrLaForge
I love the prospect of Arm Macs, especially battery life in portables. The software (especially pro level and third party) needs to be updated first before I make the switch. But I definitely see this as the future of the Mac.
 
Has to run windows virtually at least or that’s a dealbreaker for even buying a Mac.
 
Has to run windows virtually at least or that’s a dealbreaker for even buying a Mac.

Yeah, but we all know Windows will NEVER run on ARM....

Oh, wait.....

Windows will never have X86 emulation on ARM....

Oh, wait....

Honestly guys, you need to do better. Something like "But there's no Thunderbolt available for ARM yet"

Oh, wait...
 
Yeah, but we all know Windows will NEVER run on ARM....
Windows will never have X86 emulation on ARM....

Yes, there is Windows for ARM, but it has yet to really take off, AFAIK isn't available to buy without a computer and its "insufficient data" as to whether it will even be compatible with hypothetical ARMintosh hardware.

Yes, ARM windows includes an x86 emulator - heck, I was using Windows/DOS on an ARM (Acorn Archimedes) around 1988/89 - but no emulation is ever perfect - https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/porting/apps-on-arm-troubleshooting-x86 - and reasons for wanting Windows on Mac include testing (its not helpful if you get lots of false failures caused by emulation) and running 'legacy' Apps (which might be cranky under ARM Windows)

On the other hand, with the focus switching to mobile, web apps etc., and Microsoft doing better at standards compatibility (IE is now a 'minority' browser and MS are switching their 'Edge' browser to Chromium...) the need for Windows on Mac is not what it was in 2006, and could be even less by 2023.

This isn't about what ARM can/can't do technically - it can potentially do everything it needs to - its about how Apple play it. There's only a problem if Apple does something stupid like:
  • Immediately abandoning development of Intel Macs so that the choice come 2020 is between an ARMintosh that doesn't yet meet your needs or a 2017/2018 Intel Mac that hasn't seen an update in 2 years.
  • As already discussed in this thread, uses the move to ARM as an excuse for an iOS-style lockdown of MacOS. However, they can already do that any time they want on Intel, moreso once they've finished rolling out T2.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ledgem and Nugget
It would take a few years for Apple to prove to me they can do it properly. Creating an ARM CPU that can perform to the level of what I am used to will take a while. I think it is more difficult and will take longer than most people expect.

They also must have hypervisors available that perform properly.

Their lower end MB's should give an indication on how they are doing once they make the transition.

My best guess is that the limitations placed on their ARM machines by their own priorities won't line up with what I need.
 
...
If Apple does embrace ARM, will they do what MS has done, and is trying to do now?
Low end, ARM, but high end still use Intel? If Apple did that, would that confuse and muddy things?

As originally envisioned in Windows 8, the MS approach was one OS, one UI and one API framework which spanned from phones to workstations. This didn't work out very well.

By contrast Apple plans on maintaining a separate OS for mobile and desktop/laptop environments. In the layers above the OS kernel, the upcoming Marzipan product will supposedly be rolled out in several phases, with the final goal of providing a single app development and distribution format that runs on either iOS or macOS. During that that move, the underlying Mac CPU might change.

Obviously there are lots of unanswered questions but this could result in more (not fewer) Mac apps. Right now there's no Netflix app for Mac, and the Mac Twitter app is going away. With Marzipan the iOS versions of those could be ported to macOS. Some early info indicates that would not be a "windowed" iOS app running on a Mac but somehow the app's core functionality would be converted to the mouse/menu interface: https://insights.dice.com/2019/02/21/apple-wwdc-2019-marzipan-sdk/

Porting apps the opposite direction -- from Mac to iOS -- would also be streamlined. Adobe has demonstrated an early version of Photoshop on iOS. This was probably an immense effort and would essentially be a totally new app which must be maintained in parallel with the desktop version. In theory Marzipan would allow a single app development effort to target both desktop and mobile platforms.

In past Mac CPU transitions, most apps were compiled binaries. However today many apps exist as web apps. Out of the box an ARM Mac could obviously run all those.

For mainstream productivity apps it seems likely that Apple would coordinate with the development community to have those ready by roughly the time an ARM-based Mac appeared.

Re performance or other advantages, in theory ARM could provide a MacBook with the battery life of an iPad.

The desktop space is less clear since ARM has not prioritized that market segment. However from a pure performance standpoint, ARM (inc'l Apple-developed CPUs using the ARM instruction set) has made great progress.

Apple is frequently hamstrung by Intel in both price, availability and features. One example is Intel will not put the Quick Sync video accelerator on Xeon CPUs. Thus the iMac and Mac Pros don't have this and sometimes struggle with H264 video. FCPX on the iMac Pro uses AMD's transcoding logic but it's not as fast. If Apple controlled the CPU they could add whatever architectural features they wanted, on their own schedule.

In theory Apple-developed ARM CPUs would be cheaper, even for higher-end parts, plus consume less power per unit of performance. For workstation-class machines the CPU price can be a significant % of the total parts list. The 10-core Xeon W2155 used in the iMac Pro costs about $1,500. Apple certainly gets a discount but it's still probably a lot of money.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nouveau_redneck
Yeah, but we all know Windows will NEVER run on ARM....

Oh, wait.....

Windows will never have X86 emulation on ARM....

Oh, wait....

Honestly guys, you need to do better. Something like "But there's no Thunderbolt available for ARM yet"

Oh, wait...

That is true. I can just use the arm version of the windows app....

Oh, wait.....

I can use ARM to X86 emulation in a hypervisor....

Oh, wait, it will run like crap if it runs at all.....

Honestly, you need to do better than assume Windows ARM = Windows X86. Different architectures, different problems, different app availability...
 
Yeah, but we all know Windows will NEVER run on ARM....

Oh, wait.....

Windows will never have X86 emulation on ARM....

Oh, wait....

Honestly guys, you need to do better. Something like "But there's no Thunderbolt available for ARM yet"

Oh, wait...
If ARM is the future, and we all know that Microsoft already had an ARM-based mobile system, where are all of the ARM Windows systems? How much of Microsoft's own Surface hardware is running based on ARM?

The answer to that is: zero. There's a rumor that the Surface Go was almost based on ARM, but it's a rumor, and the current systems run Intel processors. Best I can tell, the Surface RT line - the Surface line that had ARM processors - has been discontinued. Battery life comparisons are variable; the iPad gets a few hours more battery than than the Surface Pro, but you're comparing an ARM processor with an i7, and I'm pretty sure the i7 still outclasses Apple's processor in the iPad. But looking purely at battery life, compare the ARM processor in the iPad Pro to the "Devil's Canyon" Intel design in the MacBook and the battery life is a lot closer.

Could the differences be greater some day? Maybe. But right now it doesn't seem anywhere near significantly different enough to justify the pain of an entire architecture change. Microsoft's own experiment with their Surface line says a lot about that.

And lastly, while ARM seems to have proven benefits in the mobile space, it has yet to prove its worth in desktops. I don't think most of us here are outright discounting ARM-based MacBooks, but this is the iMac forum after all... we need to see the goods. Otherwise, you're telling us that our software will either be incompatible or run poorly, all for... a cooler system that will last longer on a UPS? Eh...
 
If ARM is the future, and we all know that Microsoft already had an ARM-based mobile system, where are all of the ARM Windows systems? How much of Microsoft's own Surface hardware is running based on ARM?

The answer to that is: zero. There's a rumor that the Surface Go was almost based on ARM, but it's a rumor, and the current systems run Intel processors. Best I can tell, the Surface RT line - the Surface line that had ARM processors - has been discontinued. Battery life comparisons are variable; the iPad gets a few hours more battery than than the Surface Pro, but you're comparing an ARM processor with an i7, and I'm pretty sure the i7 still outclasses Apple's processor in the iPad. But looking purely at battery life, compare the ARM processor in the iPad Pro to the "Devil's Canyon" Intel design in the MacBook and the battery life is a lot closer.

Could the differences be greater some day? Maybe. But right now it doesn't seem anywhere near significantly different enough to justify the pain of an entire architecture change. Microsoft's own experiment with their Surface line says a lot about that.

And lastly, while ARM seems to have proven benefits in the mobile space, it has yet to prove its worth in desktops. I don't think most of us here are outright discounting ARM-based MacBooks, but this is the iMac forum after all... we need to see the goods. Otherwise, you're telling us that our software will either be incompatible or run poorly, all for... a cooler system that will last longer on a UPS? Eh...
I would like to refer you to post #5. There are reasons ARM might begin to seriously outclass heavyweight computing. We will see what the future holds though. If ARM evolves faster than x86, then x86 is on the way out.
 
I would hold off for some time. This would likely be a slow transition. Things like MacBook Pro and Mac Pro would likely run x86 for quite a while.
 
I've been watching Apple's ARM development with great curiosity and interest.

If the next iMac came out tomorrow, and had comparable performance with Intel based iMacs, would you make the change?

I would (provided Logic worked).

It's got nothing to do with performance for me. The fact that an ARM based Mac will (in time) be able to run all my iOS apps natively has me sold.

The CPU in the iPad Pro 2018 shows you just how powerful the hardware can be (CPU & GPU). Surely a desktop CPU designed by Apple based on the same principles will be at least as good as the Intel equivalent. When it comes to GPU then Apple will destroy Intel's feeble integrated graphics technology.
[doublepost=1551434764][/doublepost]
I would hold off for some time. This would likely be a slow transition. Things like MacBook Pro and Mac Pro would likely run x86 for quite a while.

I'd imagine they will run dual Intel & ARM CPU's for the first wave of Apple designed Mac CPU's, unless Apple gets really brave and ditches Intel entirely.
 
what is the significance of an ARM processor?
why are they different from intel or amdi?
will certain program only work on specific processors?
Will mac users need to reinstall everything?
and why is every congratulating me over my wife's pregnancy?
I have seen her in over a year!
 
  • Like
Reactions: whooleytoo
Would wait a little longer to jum, considering the first Mac mini Intal only supported MacOS: X 10.4.5 (8H1619) to MacOS: X 10.6.8, that is a lame support they had during transition, meaning the first ARM macs would likely be dropped 2-3 years later.
Would wait a couple generations before considering the switch to ARM so that I would get better support.
 
what is the significance of an ARM processor?
Apple is in control of the hardware and doesn't have to buy CPUs or wait for intel to supply the next gen.

why are they different from intel or amdi?
ARM and Intel are completely different architectures

will certain program only work on specific processors?
Yes every program you are able to run now is incompatible. Apple could supply an emulator to emulate intel cpus and your apps will work but at a horrific performance penalty.

Will mac users need to reinstall everything?
Its not as much reinstall as much as what will be compatable. for instance, will MS Office, or Adobe provide apps that can run on macOS under ARM? Day 1 of the announcement, its unlikely as these apps have to be updated to be compatible. Smaller developers may choose to abandon the mac outright. I think the wild card in all this is apple letting iOS apps run on macOS and while these apps are less powerful then current macos apps, it may make sense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AndyMacAndMic
The transition from PPC to intel was a very slow process. I would expect no less with any ARM transition.
Ahh, i remember that all to vividly.(as i look into the sunset horizon with a defeated grin upon my concerned worn face)
My ipod G3 nano would not play in my Igloo iMac, but in a PC so i purchased a powerbook, and that DVD CS4
what a fool i used to be......
 
I'd imagine they will run dual Intel & ARM CPU's for the first wave of Apple designed Mac CPU's, unless Apple gets really brave and ditches Intel entirely.
Most likely. I would expect the Mac Pro to run Intel for a long time simply because Apple doesn't make a chip quite like that. MacBook? Definitely going ARM. MacBook Air? Most certainly? MacBook Pro? some of the models maybe? That i9 might be tough to replicate.
 
AMD yes, ARM no. It would mean I couldn't run any Windows VMs. I rely on Windows server VMs for testing - I need AD, etc and cannot run test in Azure or AWS I have to rely on local VM's. For everything else I would actually be fine with ARM, so long as Adobe CC and CaptureOne worked okay.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Robnsn2015
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.