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MK500

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Aug 28, 2009
434
550
I admit to not being intimately familiar with features that have, to my knowledge, never been available on a Mac before
Actually SIP has been around for many years. There are a number of use cases where disabling SIP was necessary for development work or specialized software.

What is new is iOS app support on macOS. And in the past disabling SIP didn't cause anything to stop functioning. It was just a reduced level of security; which was a choice people could make who knew what they were doing. I only disable SIP when I am in an extremely trusted environment.

Now we have a tricky situation; where disabling SIP causes a major feature of the OS to fail. Users may eventually have a significant portion of their apps be iOS apps. So we need to consider this situation.

For those not familiar with SIP; think of it like going to System Preferences -> Security & Privacy -> General -> App Store and identified developers. Choosing this setting reduces your security a little by opening up your computer to a larger subset of developers. Or another example is Users & Groups -> Login Options -> Automatic login : On. This reduces your security pretty substantially, but can be beneficial in certain limited situation. There are numerous other setting like this that allow users to choose to trade security for functionality. SIP is similar.
 

EntropyQ3

macrumors 6502a
Mar 20, 2009
718
824
Or another example is Users & Groups -> Login Options -> Automatic login : On. This reduces your security pretty substantially, but can be beneficial in certain limited situation.
Actually, one of my major gripes with iOS and to some extent MacOS, is that they assume that all users store nuclear launch codes on their computer. My elderly parents don’t need that kind of security, and neither do I. Restricting access is just an unnecessary obstacle for us. And something that invariable messes them up when a new OS version is installed, and I have to try to handle security settings on the phone.
They just want to pick up the device and use it, like any tool, or for them, newspaper.
 
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Luposian

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2005
389
258
And Macs are suddenly Macs again because they aren't using x86? PowerPC was IBM and Motorola, how was that more "true" Mac than Intel chips?
Macs have NEVER run Windows natively. Not until the switch to Intel. You could never boot Windows from a Mac. You had to use emulation. The CPU is the big difference between what I consider a PC and what I consider a genuine Mac.

Now that they’ve left Intel, emulation is now required to run Windows once more. And the Mac is a Mac once more, as well.

The CPU is not the issue (Motorola, AIM (PPC), etc.), so long as it is not hardware that is the same as a PC. I run MacOS on a Mac, not a PC. I run Windows on a PC, not a Mac. Thankfully the twain hath been separated once more and may they never meet again!

My views are my own and motivate me as an individual. If others share a similar/same view... more power to them! :D
 

seek3r

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2010
2,561
3,772
Macs have NEVER run Windows natively. Not until the switch to Intel. You could never boot Windows from a Mac. You had to use emulation. The CPU is the big difference between what I consider a PC and what I consider a genuine Mac.

Now that they’ve left Intel, emulation is now required to run Windows once more. And the Mac is a Mac once more, as well.

The CPU is not the issue (Motorola, AIM (PPC), etc.), so long as it is not hardware that is the same as a PC. I run MacOS on a Mac, not a PC. I run Windows on a PC, not a Mac. Thankfully the twain hath been separated once more and may they never meet again!

My views are my own and motivate me as an individual. If others share a similar/same view... more power to them! :D

Bad news for you, Macs are PCs, and always have been. I've been booting multiple OSes on Macs for far longer than they've been x86. Hell, my first personal web server was a G3 running Debian. I suspect we'll be able to boot various flavors of Linux, BSD, etc on ARM Macs before too long (driver, PMIC, etc support to make it a decent experience may take a while though), just as we had on PPC. The only reason you never saw Windows on a PPC mac was that the PPC incarnation of NT was so short lived and incomplete that it never even got the chance for development of support for Apple's implementation, not even from the OSS community.

As for modern Windows.... I, uh, got more bad news for you, pal (for you specifically, good news for Mac users in general). There's an ARM version of Windows 10 out already, and it seems Apple is open to discussions with MS about native booting on AS Macs:




Following the release of the M1 Macs Apple executives have been doing interviews with a range of publications, and today, Ars Technica published another interview with software engineering chief Craig Federighi, hardware technologies lead Johny Srouji, and marketing VP Greg Joswiak.

Federighi says Windows on M1 Macs is "up to Microsoft." The core technologies exist and the Macs are capable of it, but Microsoft has to decide whether to license its Arm-based version of Windows to Mac users.

Article Link: Craig Federighi: Native Windows on M1 Macs is 'Really up to Microsoft'
 

acidfast7_redux

Suspended
Nov 10, 2020
567
521
uk
Macs have NEVER run Windows natively. Not until the switch to Intel. You could never boot Windows from a Mac. You had to use emulation. The CPU is the big difference between what I consider a PC and what I consider a genuine Mac.

Now that they’ve left Intel, emulation is now required to run Windows once more. And the Mac is a Mac once more, as well.

The CPU is not the issue (Motorola, AIM (PPC), etc.), so long as it is not hardware that is the same as a PC. I run MacOS on a Mac, not a PC. I run Windows on a PC, not a Mac. Thankfully the twain hath been separated once more and may they never meet again!

My views are my own and motivate me as an individual. If others share a similar/same view... more power to them! :D
Win NT on PPC. That was native.
 
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Luposian

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2005
389
258
Bad news for you, Macs are PCs, and always have been. I've been booting multiple OSes on Macs for far longer than they've been x86. Hell, my first personal web server was a G3 running Debian. I suspect we'll be able to boot various flavors of Linux, BSD, etc on ARM Macs before too long (driver, PMIC, etc support to make it a decent experience may take a while though), just as we had on PPC. The only reason you never saw Windows on a PPC mac was that the PPC incarnation of NT was so short lived and incomplete that it never even got the chance for development of support for Apple's implementation, not even from the OSS community.

As for modern Windows.... I, uh, got more bad news for you, pal (for you specifically, good news for Mac users in general). There's an ARM version of Windows 10 out already, and it seems Apple is open to discussions with MS about native booting on AS Macs:
No. Macs have never been PC's, until recently. Intel/AMD processors and their chipsets make a PC. Windows is the defacto OS for a PC. Hence why the platform has oft been called "Wintel". It's never been called "Winorola" or "WinPPC". The PC version of Windows runs on Intel Macs. Therefore, that makes the Mac the same as a PC. Just because another version of Windows is made available for a platform does not make automatically make it a PC. It's simply a native version of Windows for that platform. Fine by me that an ARM version of Windows exists... and fine if M1 users decide to boot it. It's "ARM Windows running on a Mac", not "PC version of Windows running on a Mac", which makes it... a PC, simply CALLED a Mac by Apple. Remember the ad, "Hello... I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC. And I'm ALSO a PC!" That single ad PROVED my point! It blew my mind, when Apple actually ADMITTED to it! I've been looking for that single ad, to show people my point, but seems it's rather hard to find.
 

acidfast7_redux

Suspended
Nov 10, 2020
567
521
uk
No. Macs have never been PC's, until recently. Intel/AMD processors and their chipsets make a PC. Windows is the defacto OS for a PC. Hence why the platform has oft been called "Wintel". It's never been called "Winorola" or "WinPPC". The PC version of Windows runs on Intel Macs. Therefore, that makes the Mac the same as a PC. Just because another version of Windows is made available for a platform does not make automatically make it a PC. It's simply a native version of Windows for that platform. Fine by me that an ARM version of Windows exists... and fine if M1 users decide to boot it. It's "ARM Windows running on a Mac", not "PC version of Windows running on a Mac", which makes it... a PC, simply CALLED a Mac by Apple. Remember the ad, "Hello... I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC. And I'm ALSO a PC!" That single ad PROVED my point! It blew my mind, when Apple actually ADMITTED to it! I've been looking for that single ad, to show people my point, but seems it's rather hard to find.
Do you argue minutia with everyone?
 

08380728

Cancelled
Aug 20, 2007
422
165
No. Macs have never been PC's, until recently. Intel/AMD processors and their chipsets make a PC. Windows is the defacto OS for a PC. Hence why the platform has oft been called "Wintel". It's never been called "Winorola" or "WinPPC". The PC version of Windows runs on Intel Macs. Therefore, that makes the Mac the same as a PC. Just because another version of Windows is made available for a platform does not make automatically make it a PC. It's simply a native version of Windows for that platform. Fine by me that an ARM version of Windows exists... and fine if M1 users decide to boot it. It's "ARM Windows running on a Mac", not "PC version of Windows running on a Mac", which makes it... a PC, simply CALLED a Mac by Apple. Remember the ad, "Hello... I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC. And I'm ALSO a PC!" That single ad PROVED my point! It blew my mind, when Apple actually ADMITTED to it! I've been looking for that single ad, to show people my point, but seems it's rather hard to find.
Wow, random arbitrary waffle is all you’re showcasing here, first of all your comments were “Macs were not macs running on x86”. Then you switched it to, “because illegitimate x86 macs could run Windows they are not macs” then some obvious brain corruption occurred, and you said “no intel macs run Windows natively”. Every computer since the Commodore Vic 20 has ben deemed a PC, practically everything that wasn’t a mainframe is a PC, PC has nothing to do with the CPU or th OS it runs.

macs are not mac on intel okay, well NeXTStep and OpenStep ran on intel way before macos x. So were 68k macs not macs either? Because what you seem to be suggesting but not saying directly is macs are not macs on CISC where real macs are only RISC based. That’d make more sense to most people, but still it doesn’t align with your contorted multi tangential comments, because 86k macs are CISC then the move to PPC was RISC, then to intel x86 CISC now to ARM back on RISC.

You’d look like an a$$Klown to suggest 68k mac are not real macs...don’t bother replying, im not interested in anything you come back with.
 

Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,344
Do you argue minutia with everyone?
He called wintel like amd never existed..because some users/people called wintel the intel windows pc that means nothing else can be called PC (personal computer) the definition says it all but ...let him be :)
 

Wowfunhappy

macrumors 68000
Mar 12, 2019
1,747
2,090
So, uh, has anyone else tried turning off SIP and then running iOS apps? Surely more people have M1 Macs? I'd really like to get some broader confirmation about this!

It's not that I don't trust the OP, but it would be nice to know whether this is just an isolated bug that's affecting a couple people, or a replicatable problem that happens for everyone.
 
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seek3r

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2010
2,561
3,772
I confirm that turning off SIP makes iOS apps not loading at all. (Macbook Pro M1)
Crud, I was kinda hoping OP’s problem was a fluke.

Apple needs to either update their docs or fix this ASAP or they’re going to get a fair number of pissed off devs on their support lines. Like, sure, the majority of Apple users don’t care, but the folks who do are going to be disproportionately people Apple wants to keep on Macs, developing software for the folks who don’t care
 
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seek3r

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2010
2,561
3,772
No. Macs have never been PC's, until recently. Intel/AMD processors and their chipsets make a PC. Windows is the defacto OS for a PC. Hence why the platform has oft been called "Wintel". It's never been called "Winorola" or "WinPPC". The PC version of Windows runs on Intel Macs. Therefore, that makes the Mac the same as a PC. Just because another version of Windows is made available for a platform does not make automatically make it a PC. It's simply a native version of Windows for that platform. Fine by me that an ARM version of Windows exists... and fine if M1 users decide to boot it. It's "ARM Windows running on a Mac", not "PC version of Windows running on a Mac", which makes it... a PC, simply CALLED a Mac by Apple. Remember the ad, "Hello... I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC. And I'm ALSO a PC!" That single ad PROVED my point! It blew my mind, when Apple actually ADMITTED to it! I've been looking for that single ad, to show people my point, but seems it's rather hard to find.
What are you talking about? Ok, long post incoming...

First of all, you get the Apple ads about ”Macs vs PCs” is (very successful) marketing, right? Macs have always been personal computers. Apple didn’t “admit” anything, it was branding. Macs are PCs.

And Windows has run on other PC architectures than x86 before, in addition to the short lived PPC vers I already mentioned, off the top of my head, it has run on: ARM (both older codebases on older ARM implementations, including 2 failed simplified versions of windows, and the newer complete implementation of Windows 10), Alpha, Itanium (which was being pushed for a while as the future before AMD blew the P4 era intel chips away with AMD64 and ensured Windows staying on x86 as the dominant consumer architecture for another 20 years at least), and MIPS.

tl;dr of above, PCs, even *Windows PCs* are not just Intel/x86 and never have been. “Wintel” was coined because of how common that combo became (in part because of abusive market practices by Intel), not because that was the definition of “PC”.

Now, onto modern AS Macs (and bringing this back around to the original topic); AS is Apple’s implementation of ARM64, and just like MacOS supports ARM and x86 right now, so does Windows. The main and only real barrier to bootcamp working with on M1 Macs basically exactly the same as x86 MacOS and x86 Windows can coexist on Intel Macs is that Microsoft doesnt currently as openly license the ARM builds for Windows. I would be willing to wager $100 right now that Apple already has internal Windows drivers for ARM bootcamp and a ARM version of the bootcamp assistant ready and waiting if MS changes licensing. And just like running x86 Windows on an Intel Mac is indistinguishable from any other nice hardware running x86 Windows, the same would (hopefully will, assuming MS updates their licensing) be true of running ARM Windows on AS Macs and other ARM PCs (and yes, M1 Macs are ARM based PCs). Hell, you can install Windows on a Raspberry Pi 4, it’s not super performant but it works well enough, and architecturally, as far as Windows is concerned, it’s just like an AS Mac - for our purposes on this post at least.

I would also bet that just like there is a very active x86 based hackintosh scene there will be a similar scene soon for ARM. Getting Big Sur onto a a raspberry pi and other ARM PCs, including ones Windows already runs on, and including more powerful ones to come as ARM makes more and more inroads onto the desktop is going to be a major goal of a *lot* of folks. I give it a very very good chance of happening.

All of which brings us back to SIP and expectations of PCs. Macs are expected to, basically, listen to you more than a locked down mobile device. They are a PC, and they are aimed at general computing use, including development (“tinkering”). If I turn off SIP using Apple’s documented procedure it shouldn’t cripple the system in unexpected ways - especially when, assuming MS relaxes their licensing, we get Windows on these machines, or when we get Linux/BSD/etc on these machines, that problem wont exist on those platforms.
 
Last edited:

AlanBrowne

macrumors newbie
Jan 31, 2010
7
2
I disabled SIP on my M1 Mac by using csrutil disable. All my iOS apps no longer launch. So I re-enabled SIP and they are all working again.

So be aware that SIP seems to be required for iOS apps to function.

IMO no truly valid reason to disable SIP other than rare fixes (where you then turn SIP back on), so ...
 
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Luposian

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2005
389
258
Do you argue minutia with everyone?
This is what I was like when Macs had PowerPC processors... starting with my very first Power Macintosh 6100/60. When I have something I believe in... something I can actually get behind... I get adamant about it. I enjoy being able to be proud about the game system/computer brand/model I own. Started back with the 6-switch Atari 2600 VCS. I may have gotten older (52 now... ugh!), but I'm not really much different. It's what is known as... an Enthusiast. ;)
 

Luposian

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2005
389
258
Wow, random arbitrary waffle is all you’re showcasing here, first of all your comments were “Macs were not macs running on x86”. Then you switched it to, “because illegitimate x86 macs could run Windows they are not macs” then some obvious brain corruption occurred, and you said “no intel macs run Windows natively”. Every computer since the Commodore Vic 20 has ben deemed a PC, practically everything that wasn’t a mainframe is a PC, PC has nothing to do with the CPU or th OS it runs.

macs are not mac on intel okay, well NeXTStep and OpenStep ran on intel way before macos x. So were 68k macs not macs either? Because what you seem to be suggesting but not saying directly is macs are not macs on CISC where real macs are only RISC based. That’d make more sense to most people, but still it doesn’t align with your contorted multi tangential comments, because 86k macs are CISC then the move to PPC was RISC, then to intel x86 CISC now to ARM back on RISC.

You’d look like an a$$Klown to suggest 68k mac are not real macs...don’t bother replying, im not interested in anything you come back with.
Not exactly sure what you're talking about. I thought I was quite clear... non-Intel Mac are true Macs, regardless of processor, because you cannot natively boot the standard version of Windows (for PC's) on them. The fact a version of Windows exists for a DIFFERENT processor, that may ALSO run on them, is not the same as the *PC version* (also known a x86) of Windows operating on them.

The NeXT platform (started by Steve Jobs) was started on the M68K series of processors (68030/040). NeXT failed. The NeXT OS technology was taken, when Steve Jobs came back to Apple, and made into what we know as MacOS X. Whether or not it ran on Intel processors before it was incorporated into the Power PC G3/G4 series is irrelevant. That version only mattered as a "backup plan" when Apple couldn't procur PowerPC G5's in all tiers and they switched to Intel. That was made quite clear in Steve Job's keynote. The reason for the switch was understandable. But I still hated it with every fiber of my being. I do not hate the x86 platform... but the x86 platform is for PC's, not Mac's!

Any processor, other than ones made for PC's that natively run the PC version of Windows, is an acceptable Mac processor (to me). 68K, PowerPC... ARM... and I will consider that system a true Mac. Yes, it can be argued that whatever Apple chooses for hardware and calls it, makes it what it is... but I come from a time when brand/system/OS loyalty was a thing... "us" vs. "them". Atari vs. Commodore. Sega vs. Nintendo. Kawasaki vs. Honda. On and on. To me, there is a distinct delinination between what makes a Mac a Mac and a PC a PC.

I can tell, I'm opening up a hornets nest with my "fanboyism", so I'll leave you with this... to stop a conversation... you only need to stop the conversation. ;)
 

Luposian

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2005
389
258
He called wintel like amd never existed..because some users/people called wintel the intel windows pc that means nothing else can be called PC (personal computer) the definition says it all but ...let him be :)
It would have been the same thing, if Apple had chosen the AMD processor. AMD follows Intel. I would have PREFERRED they go with AMD (if you're gonna jump into an active volcano, at least do a really good swan dive!), at the time, but... the platform would still be considered a PC, to me.

But, hey... Apple is Apple. They do what they do for profit. The fact we benefit from it is just icing on the cake.
 

gank41

macrumors 601
Mar 25, 2008
4,350
5,022
This is a HUGE bummer for me. I use a csrutil disable flag for the cdock app so I can customize my dock. And yes I am completely capable of being “safe” while SIP is disabled.
 
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Luposian

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2005
389
258
PC="Personal Computer". So yes, all Macs are PC's, though sometimes used in non-PC roles (which applies more so to Windows and other OS machines of similar size/architecture).
I understand the definition of PC = "Personal Computer" (which is ANY computer that is "personal", which does go back to the earliest computers, like the Commodore VIC-20), but the commonly known and accepted definition is a computer that runs DOS/Windows. Anyone you ask, who knows about computers, will tell you that. That is also my choice of definition. Just like the word "gay". Tell me you can honestly ALWAYS think of the original definition, if you even know what it was. If you can't, that proves my point. The term "gay" used to mean "happy and carefree". It still CAN mean that, but... betcha not many people will THINK that's what you're saying, if you tell them, "I'm gay". ;)
 

Luposian

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2005
389
258
This is a HUGE bummer for me. I use a csrutil disable flag for the cdock app so I can customize my dock. And yes I am completely capable of being “safe” while SIP is disabled.
If it worked perfectly in the last version of MacOS (10.15.x?), then I think it's just a bug with the new version of MacOS (11.0.x). They've obviously had to make significant changes to the code, to make it work on the new processor family, so, give it some time and they'll get it sorted out. Issues are ALWAY going to be had with a new architecture change like this... "Early Adopter Syndrome" (EAS; also known as "I wanna be a Guinea Pig!") and all that... ;)
 

jetmayo

macrumors newbie
May 17, 2020
12
10
This is a HUGE bummer for me. I use a csrutil disable flag for the cdock app so I can customize my dock. And yes I am completely capable of being “safe” while SIP is disabled.
As far as I understand it, it only affects iOS apps. cDock is a standard mac app if I'm not mistaken so you're probably good.
 
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