MP All Models I'm Getting a New Mac Pro!

[SecuritySteve]

Likely, but the fact that all that stuff is integrated (or rather stacked on top of) into the processor for the mobile chips, maybe that isn't the way they'll do it for the big pro desktop chip - the Xeons don't have integrated graphics the way the desktop & mobile Core chips did, for example.

A "Pro" AS desktop that doesn't have user-upgradable ram, graphics etc is a non-starter, no matter how good the CPU is, it would literally be a step further back along the road of the 2013 trashfire.

Turning people's $10k machines into stranded assets, by releasing a radically higher performance AS machine with no upgrade path, seems like a great way to burn the bridges they've spent so long trying to rebuild.

I would totally agree with this assessment, 100% under normal circumstances. But lets examine those normal circumstances.

The only reason that people are still getting use out of their 2008 cheese graters today is because intel CPUs have not progressed very far at all. The GPUs on the other hand have upgraded massively, and being able to replace the GPU with regular upgrades has given people long life out of old machines.

But what if ARM based CPUs like the M1, M2, M3, etc had the same upgrade progress as GPUs? If so, then older machines don't need to be upgraded as frequently, because you'd need to replace the whole motherboard and system to get the best performance upgrades.

I'm not a fan of systems that can't be modified. I think that it is inflexible and thus problematic. But the future of computers might look very different in the 2020s than it did from 2008-2020 if ARM takes us in a wildly different computer progress direction.

RAM on the other hand is just a capacity thing, since the speed is generally limited by the bus of the motherboard / CPU. If you bought a machine that was already maxed out, unless you get lucky and new chips with higher capacity for your slot size and speed are developed, you already have the best there ever will be for your machine.

 

[mattspace]

But what if ARM based CPUs like the M1, M2, M3, etc had the same upgrade progress as GPUs? If so, then older machines don't need to be upgraded as frequently, because you'd need to replace the whole motherboard and system to get the best performance upgrades.

That seems backwards to me - if the CPU has generational improvements as fast as GPUs do now, you'll need to upgrade the system MORE often, not less. The pace of the cutting edge determines the pace of obsolescence in any part.

I'm not a fan of systems that can't be modified. I think that it is inflexible and thus problematic. But the future of computers might look very different in the 2020s than it did from 2008-2020 if ARM takes us in a wildly different computer progress direction.

Nothing about ARM requires RAM to be on-die, or precludes PCI slot graphics, those are all choices made by the individual design.

RAM on the other hand is just a capacity thing, since the speed is generally limited by the bus of the motherboard / CPU. If you bought a machine that was already maxed out, unless you get lucky and new chips with higher capacity for your slot size and speed are developed, you already have the best there ever will be for your machine.

Yeah, but as we've seen, the 4,1/5,1 cheesegraters were originally specced as maxing out at something like 12 or 16 GB of ram, because that's all there was in terms of DIMM capacity, now we run with 48/96, with 64/128 as options.

RAM density / capacity increases are more or less a given, because most of the computing world doesn't follow where Apple leads.

 

[DFP1989]

I think the performance is relative though.

My M1 is doing a better job of handling a particular task that I do a lot (edit 4K HEVC 4:2:2 10-bit footage in Final Cut), but there is unquestionably countless tasks that my 16-core Mac Pro with 96GB RAM would be significantly faster.

As for upgradability, one possibility I can see is Apple releasing their own accelerator cards along the lines of the Afterburner, that are optimised for particular workflows.

 

[SecuritySteve]

That seems backwards to me - if the CPU has generational improvements as fast as GPUs do now, you'll need to upgrade the system MORE often, not less. The pace of the cutting edge determines the pace of obsolescence in any part.




Nothing about ARM requires RAM to be on-die, or precludes PCI slot graphics, those are all choices made by the individual design.



Yeah, but as we've seen, the 4,1/5,1 cheesegraters were originally specced as maxing out at something like 12 or 16 GB of ram, because that's all there was in terms of DIMM capacity, now we run with 48/96, with 64/128 as options.

RAM density / capacity increases are more or less a given, because most of the computing world doesn't follow where Apple leads.

If you need to upgrade the CPU on the system, you upgrade the entire system. CPUs are tied to logic boards, the only weird exception was when intel didn't adjust pin sizes between the generations of CPUs used between the 4,1 and the 5,1.

Also I never said RAM needs to be on-die. I still strongly believe that the next generation of CPUs from Apple will not be SoC (at least for systems that it doesn't make sense for, like the Mac Pro, larger iMac, and larger MBP all of which use discrete graphics and larger quantities of RAM). The SoC architecture makes plenty of sense for the smaller lightweight systems that are out now, but it won't scale upwards.

As far as RAM growth, I am sure there will be density improvements, but I also think that we will start seeing more DIMM size specific RAM for specialized systems as Microsoft releases their own ARM CPU.

 

[mattspace]

If you need to upgrade the CPU on the system, you upgrade the entire system. CPUs are tied to logic boards, the only weird exception was when intel didn't adjust pin sizes between the generations of CPUs used between the 4,1 and the 5,1.

The windows world seems to do pretty well with CPU upgrades, without having to junk $4k+ of PSU, cooling, case etc. On a purely environmental basis, the idea of junking a system, especially one with such a monstrously large embodied energy carbon footprint as a Mac Pro, to replace a single component simply isn't sustainable.

If they're going to make it as disposable as an iPad, it needs to be priced like an iPad.

As far as RAM growth, I am sure there will be density improvements, but I also think that we will start seeing more DIMM size specific RAM for specialized systems as Microsoft releases their own ARM CPU.

Appliance-type devices perhaps, but the Mac Pro is not an appliance. They tried that, it was a failure.

 

[SecuritySteve]

The windows world seems to do pretty well with CPU upgrades, without having to junk $4k+ of PSU, cooling, case etc.

Apple doesn't sell blessed motherboards though.

 

[fuchsdh]

The windows world seems to do pretty well with CPU upgrades, without having to junk $4k+ of PSU, cooling, case etc. On a purely environmental basis, the idea of junking a system, especially one with such a monstrously large embodied energy carbon footprint as a Mac Pro, to replace a single component simply isn't sustainable.

If they're going to make it as disposable as an iPad, it needs to be priced like an iPad.


Appliance-type devices perhaps, but the Mac Pro is not an appliance. They tried that, it was a failure.

If someone treasures the environmental footprint of their computers being minimal, they shouldn't be buying pro machines at all.

The Mac Pro is rated by Apple for (a minimum) of 2765kg CO₂ emissions over lifetime. The lion's share (2/3rds) of that is down to use, not manufacturing or shipping, and the numbers are only going to get worse in that calculation once you get past the conservative 4-year estimate they're using. There's definitely going to be an inflection point where buying new components to service the same chassis is actually worse for the environment, certainly from a greenhouse gasses standpoint.

I'd be highly surprised if the enthusiast market was really much greener than the consumer appliance model, especially compared to just not upgrading for a year or two or three and running with the hardware you already have.

 

[mattspace]

The Mac Pro is rated by Apple for (a minimum) of 2765kg CO₂ emissions over lifetime. The lion's share (2/3rds) of that is down to use, not manufacturing or shipping, and the numbers are only going to get worse in that calculation once you get past the conservative 4-year estimate they're using. There's definitely going to be an inflection point where buying new components to service the same chassis is actually worse for the environment, certainly from a greenhouse gasses standpoint.

Until Apple gets their aluminium from a solar-fired foundry, their footprint from the case alone is going to by higher than a studio running on solar/green-grid. There's a reason aluminium is referred to as "solid electricity".

I'd be highly surprised if the enthusiast market was really much greener than the consumer appliance model, especially compared to just not upgrading for a year or two or three and running with the hardware you already have.

We run on solar here, both from local panels (that generally have 20 year lifespans), and green-sourced grid power. It's not that difficult - hell an average domestic solar system is comparable in cost to a Mac Pro.

There's no efficiency gain in newer products that can make up for the embodied energy cost of making the new, and disposing of the old.

Apple doesn't sell blessed motherboards though.

Perhaps that stance is an anvil over which they should be bent, or broken.

 

[fuchsdh]

Perhaps that stance is an anvil over which they should be bent, or broken.

Well, that's never actually happening, so why talk about fairy tales?

 

[AlexMaximus]

I wanted to throw this here in here Down below. Tell me what you think. I hope there will be some MP 7.1 that land on eBay around Christmas. I would love to get one.

 

[fuchsdh]

I wanted to throw this here in here Down below. Tell me what you think. I hope there will be some MP 7.1 that land on eBay around Christmas. I would love to get one.

[citation needed]

 

[LeonPro]

Yeah I watched this. I hope based on the video there really are new GPUs coming for the MPX slot. Would love to upgrade my Vega II.

I wanted to throw this here in here Down below. Tell me what you think. I hope there will be some MP 7.1 that land on eBay around Christmas. I would love to get one.

 

[goMac]

I wanted to throw this here in here Down below. Tell me what you think. I hope there will be some MP 7.1 that land on eBay around Christmas. I would love to get one.

Uh no.

I don't know where he's getting that from. I mean I know about the benchmarks. But I think it was widely agreed that's not from a real Mac.

 

[mattspace]

Uh no.

I don't know where he's getting that from. I mean I know about the benchmarks. But I think it was widely agreed that's not from a real Mac.

and really, can you put credence in anything said by a man with a soulpatch?

 

[OkiRun]

Wasn't somebody getting a new mac pro?

 

[mattspace]

Wasn't somebody getting a new mac pro?

Really hate the fact I've been looking at the numbers, 4 year payment options etc, on the basis that I'm going to want a machine for virtualising old macOS versions, and wondering whether AS will ever be particularly good for that. I wonder if we'll see the rebirth of the PC-Compatability card - an Intel MPX module for running legacy systems.

 

[flowrider]

^^^^Now that's a hellofa idea?

Lou

 

[MarkC426]

Really hate the fact I've been looking at the numbers, 4 year payment options etc, on the basis that I'm going to want a machine for virtualising old macOS versions, and wondering whether AS will ever be particularly good for that. I wonder if we'll see the rebirth of the PC-Compatability card - an Intel MPX module for running legacy systems.

Hoping for at least a hint of the AS MP/mini MP at wwdc.....