iMac & Mac Pro SoC speculation/predictions

[06tb06]

The 27" iMac will probably use the same silicon found in 14/16" MBP models. The R&D and engineering on those chips is done and Apple can reuse them. Same goes for the more powerful Mac Mini version at the rumor mill.

Here's my thoughts on the next-generation Mac Pro:

Apple will have to match or best their current Intel Mac Pro. We could see one- or two-, non-removable sockets supporting new Apple silicon. The two-socket machines will utilize some form of equivalent InfinityFabric or NV Link as high-bandwidth interconnect, as well as support for user upgradable memory modules.

The GPUs in these systems may become discrete as what you see Intel doing in regards to their next-gen GPUs. Apple already has experience implementing their own ASIC designs, the Afterburner card for example. If no external GPU option, then there will have to be sufficient bandwidth from the unified memory pool to feed these rumored 64- and 128-core GPU configurations.

A few years ago System76 built an ARM-based server. A lot can be drawn from that solution in terms of scalability and implementation.

 

[CWallace]

I'm still going with Bloomberg on this since they were 100% accurate on M1 Pro and M1 MAX so I believe we will see the Mac Pro offer (the equivalent, if not an actual) 2xM1 MAX and 4xM1 MAX configurations.

As for the iMac Pro will get, I believe it will be the M1 Pro and M1 MAX, especially if it launches before WWDC.

If it launches at WWDC, which is where we should see the announcement of the Mac Pro and the 2x/4x M1 MAX configurations, then it might offer the 2x version.

 

[Boil]

Let's say the Mac Pro lineup debuts with some A15-based M2 Max SoCs...

Let's also say these SoCs are using 64GB chips of LPDDR5X RAM...

Quad M2 Max SiP

• 48-core CPU (40P/8E)
• 160-core GPU
• 64-core Neural Engine
• 1TB LPDDR5X RAM
• 2TB/s memory bandwidth

And Apple can play up that not only have they made their Apple silicon transition in the two years they outlined, but actually have the second gen of Apple silicon out...!

 

[Jorbanead]

Eh, I think the rumor consensus is that it will have the scaled up design from the 24"

Do you have a source for this part? I’ve seen rumors for everything else mentioned but AFAIK I don’t recall a specific rumor saying this. Many of us have just assumed it would take the same design.

That being said, whatever iMac uses the 2x M1 Max chip would likely be called the iMac Pro. If this is true, they easily could thicken the chassis to mimic the Pro Display XDR which in theory would give them the thermal headroom to support 2X M1 Max chips.

Renders by Ian did a concept where they took the same design but just made the chassis thicker and due to the larger screen it’s hard to even tell that it’s thicker than the 24”:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460277726380761095

 

[Jorbanead]

If it launches at WWDC, which is where we should see the announcement of the Mac Pro and the 2x/4x M1 MAX configurations, then it might offer the 2x version.

I’m curious why you think it won’t come earlier? The chip is likely already done, as Cmaier suggested over the summer that the chip team had tapped out designs for M1 Max at the beginning of the year. So if these new macs come Q1 2022 that’s a year after M1 Max tapped out. Seems plausible they don’t need a year to figure out how to “glue” two of them together.

I just don’t see them not putting in an 2X M1 Max chip into the large iMac. They need to compete with the latest Intel and AMD processor offerings, and arguably also needs to compete with the RTX 3080/90 cards as well - especially if it’s going to be called a “pro” desktop machine. The M1 Max doesn’t beat the 18-core iMac Pro in certain workloads and surely Apple would want to crush a computer from 2017.

 

[CWallace]

Let's say the Mac Pro lineup debuts with some A15-based M2 Max SoCs...

Based on the latest set of rumors, there might not be an M2 Pro or M2 MAX. Just M2 (Staten) and possibly a dual-die model with 8 efficiency cores, 8 performance cores and 20 graphics cores. If there is a dual-core model, it might be as a BTO option for the 24" iMac.

Said rumors also claim there will be an M3 Pro (Lobos) and an M3 MAX (Palma) to complement the baseline M3 (Ibiza). So it might be that Apple is planning a release cadence for the more powerful SoCs where they are updated every other generation (so M1/A14, M3/A16, M5/A18) and then the baseline SoCs are updated every generation (M1/A14, M2/A15, M3/A16, M4/A17, M5/A18).

I’m curious why you think it won’t come earlier?

My main reason is if there are special considerations for programming the multi-chip SoCs. If so, the most logical place to detail them would be during WWDC with sessions dedicated to doing so and therefore Apple would want to hold off on announcing the 2x and 4x MAX SoCs (and the iMac Pro and Mac Pro that use them) until WWDC.

If, instead, no additional code optimization is necessary (perhaps the SoCs themselves do all that behind the scenes), then yes, Apple could announce at least the dual-M1 MAX (Jade2C-Die) model in the iMac Pro before WWDC.

 

[crazy dave]

Based on the latest set of rumors, there might not be an M2 Pro or M2 MAX. Just M2 (Staten) and possibly a dual-die model with 8 efficiency cores, 8 performance cores and 20 graphics cores. If there is a dual-core model, it might be as a BTO option for the 24" iMac.

Said rumors also claim there will be an M3 Pro (Lobos) and an M3 MAX (Ibiza) to complement the baseline M3 (Ibiza). So it might be that Apple is planning a release cadence for the more powerful SoCs where they are updated every other generation (so M1/A14, M3/A16, M5/A18) and then the baseline SoCs are updated every generation (M1/A14, M2/A15, M3/A16, M4/A17, M5/A18).




My main reason is if there are special considerations for programming the multi-chip SoCs. If so, the most logical place to detail them would be during WWDC with sessions dedicated to doing so and therefore Apple would want to hold off on announcing the 2x and 4x MAX SoCs (and the iMac Pro and Mac Pro that use them) until WWDC.

If, instead, no additional code optimization is necessary (perhaps the SoCs themselves do all that behind the scenes), then yes, Apple could announce at least the dual-M1 MAX (Jade2C-Die) model in the iMac Pro before WWDC.

This is actually why I think the dual die variant will be first and relatively early, but the four die will be later. The current M1 Max appears to be ready for a dual die solution (IRQ controller, likely a bridge at the bottom) but not a four die one. The same rumor you reference also claims that the 4-die won't appear until M3.

Regardless of dual vs quad, these are thought to be multi-die but single chip/package (like Ryzen). They're not expected to be a multi-chip design like say dual Xeons. So everything should indeed be handled by the SOC itself.

 

[LonestarOne]

The only thing I can say for certain is that all the predictions are too certain. Including this one.

 

[CWallace]

This is actually why I think the dual die variant will be first and relatively early, but the four die will be later. The current M1 Max appears to be ready for a dual die solution (IRQ controller, likely a bridge at the bottom) but not a four die one. The same rumor you reference also claims that the 4-die won't appear until M3.

To be fair, it says there will be a 40 core quad-die M3. That does not in itself preclude there being a 40 core four-die M1.

However, with the rumors of a dual-die M2 and a quad-die M3, I will freely admit that there is the possibility that Jade2C-Die and Jade4C-Die might actually be the dual-die M2 and quad-die M3, respectively.

It is also possible Apple and TSMC cannot get the yields to work on a dual-die and quad-die M1 MAX with the current 5nmP process and we need die shrinks to 4nm (M2) for dual-die and 3nm (M3) for quad-die and therefore Jade2C-Die and Jade4C-Die have been shelved in favor of "M2 Duo" in 2022 and "M3 Quad" in 2023. In such a scenario, Mac Pro would launch with the "M2 Duo" and then add "M3 Quad" in the 2023 refresh.

 

[crazy dave]

To be fair, it says there will be a 40 core quad-die M3. That does not in itself preclude there being a 40 core four-die M1.

That's true. But unlike with dual die M1 Max there's no obvious silicon to make a quad die M1 out of right now.

However, with the rumors of a dual-die M2 and a quad-die M3, I will freely admit that there is the possibility that Jade2C-Die and Jade4C-Die might actually be the dual-die M2 and quad-die M3, respectively.

It is also possible Apple and TSMC cannot get the yields to work on a dual-die and quad-die M1 MAX with the current 5nmP process and we need die shrinks to 4nm (M2) for dual-die and 3nm (M3) for quad-die and therefore Jade2C-Die and Jade4C-Die have been shelved in favor of "M2 Duo" in 2022 and "M3 Quad" in 2023. In such a scenario, Mac Pro would launch with the "M2 Duo" and then add "M3 Quad" in the 2023 refresh.

I think the (first) dual die will be M1, as opposed to the M1 and M1 Pro, the M1 Max seems to be engineered to be half of a dual die package. So I think the dual M1 Max will come sooner rather than later.

What will also be interesting is to see what options they offer for the dual die M1 Max since there are cut down M1 Maxes and full M1 Maxes, will there be two options? Three?

As weird as it sounds, I think it's possible we'll see the quad die Mx (x>1) at the end of next year and before or at least simultaneously with the dual die refresh ... Apple will want to keep its timeline of offering an AS Mac replacement for its entire product line and I wrote in my first post how they'll already be stretching that if my other predictions are accurate. Not having a 40 core machine by the end of next year would definitely be breaking that.

 

[CWallace]

That's true. But unlike with dual die M1 Max there's no obvious silicon to make a quad die M1 out of right now.

"M1 MAX Duo" will likely be a chiplet or some other form of multi-chip module (MCM). Apple could then conceivably link two of those MCMs using something similar to AMD's Infinity Fabric (which is used to link two Epyc MCMs) to meet the 40C/128G of Jade4C-Die, presuming J4C-D is based on M1 MAX and does ship this year.

 

[crazy dave]

"M1 MAX Duo" will likely be a chiplet or some other form of multi-chip module (MCM). Apple could then conceivably link two of those MCMs using something similar to AMD's Infinity Fabric (which is used to link two Epyc MCMs) to meet the 40C/128G of Jade4C-Die, presuming J4C-D is based on M1 MAX and does ship this year.

This is getting beyond my knowledge base but would this solution obviate the need for the IRQ controller to have knowledge of the other dies?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1457016143336468483

However I was wrong about one thing: the M1 Pro *also* can be doubled. Don’t know if it will be but that opens up even more dual die variants that Apple can use. Great news for those who want CPU power but don’t care as much about the GPU.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456920567659909122

Pity there is no combination of current dies that emphasizes the GPU over the CPU - like a 64-core GPU and 10-core CPU for instance.

 

[Adarna]

 

[Boil]

LOL, I was just watching that...!

I'll take one of those M1 Max Duo setups, in a Mac mini chassis, thanks...! ;^p

 

[Adarna]

LOL, I was just watching that...!

I'll take one of those M1 Max Duo setups, in a Mac mini chassis, thanks...! ;^p

I want Jade-4C with 256GB memory that consumes <400W.

 

[CWallace]

Unless Apple is going back to the 2011 "slab" design for the iMac Pro, I don't think we will have the 4xM1 MAX (Jade4C-Die).

That being said, I do think 2xM1 MAX (M1 Max Duo / Jade2C-Die) is becoming more and more a BTO option possibility.

 

[Adarna]

The chin

Unless Apple is going back to the 2011 "slab" design for the iMac Pro, I don't think we will have the 4xM1 MAX (Jade4C-Die).

That being said, I do think 2xM1 MAX (M1 Max Duo / Jade2C-Die) is becoming more and more a BTO option possibility.

The chin may have enough space for it.

If Apple will push a future iMac Pro then its raw power must be higher than the Xeons of the 2017 model.

as it is right now the M1 Max is equivalent to a 5950X & 3080 so what better way to go beyond a Xeon than have a Jade-4C die?

 

[CWallace]

If Apple will push a future iMac Pro then its raw power must be higher than the Xeons of the 2017 model.

The M1 Pro and M1 MAX score significantly higher on single core and are within 7% on multi-core compared to the 18-core Xeon W-2191B in Geekbench 5. So a dual M1 MAX would just embarrass the 2017 iMac Pro by another order of magnitude.

And when it comes to graphics power, the 16-core MAX can hold it's own against the Vega 56 and Vega 64 so a 64-core model is going to be insanely more powerful.

 

[Adarna]

The M1 Pro and M1 MAX score significantly higher on single core and are within 7% on multi-core compared to the 18-core Xeon W-2191B in Geekbench 5. So a dual M1 MAX would just embarrass the 2017 iMac Pro by another order of magnitude.

And when it comes to graphics power, the 16-core MAX can hold it's own against the Vega 56 and Vega 64 so a 64-core model is going to be insanely more powerful.

Cannot wait to see Jade-4C die & Jade-2C die. I'd love if when Apple offers a Jade-9C die as well at <900W of power.

 

[JMacHack]

Hot opinion:

I hope that Apple doesn’t name it something stupid. I can’t be the only one who thinks “Pro” and “Max” are silly names.

Here’s hoping for “Duo” and “Quadro”

 

[CWallace]

Well we have a leak about an "M2 Duo" so makes sense Jade2C-Die would be "M1 MAX Duo".

As for Jade4C-Die, MaxTech calls it the "M1 Extreme" but I am presuming that is their own nomenclature.

Maybe they can call it the "M1 Quadra" as a throwback to the old Mac Quadras, which were the top-of-the-line models in the Motorola 68040 and early PowerPC days.

 

[JMacHack]

Well we have a leak about an "M2 Duo" so makes sense Jade2C-Die would be "M1 MAX Duo".

As for Jade4C-Die, MaxTech calls it the "M1 Extreme" but I am presuming that is their own nomenclature.

Maybe they can call it the "M1 Quadra" as a throwback to the old Mac Quadras, which were the top-of-the-line models in the Motorola 68040 and early PowerPC days.

I was about to say the quadra name is unlikely, since Apple doesn’t like to ride nostalgia, but seeing the designs of the new iMac and MacBook Pro makes me reconsider.

The only wrench I can think of is they might not want to confuse anyone with older Intel “Core 2 Duo” or “Core 2 Quad” models.

Everyone was sure on the name “M1X” too.

 

[Boil]

Well we have a leak about an "M2 Duo" so makes sense Jade2C-Die would be "M1 MAX Duo".

As for Jade4C-Die, MaxTech calls it the "M1 Extreme" but I am presuming that is their own nomenclature.

Maybe they can call it the "M1 Quadra" as a throwback to the old Mac Quadras, which were the top-of-the-line models in the Motorola 68040 and early PowerPC days.

Duo would reference the Mac Motorola 68k-powered laptops from the 1990's...!

Maybe Apple has been stockpiling "perfect" M1 Max SoCs, intended for use in the Mac Pro lineup; no binning (well, I guess singling out "perfect" dies could be considered binning...?), just full 10-core CPU & 32-core GPU dies; you get either a system with two (M1 Max Duo) or four (M1 Max Quadra) SoCs, RAM & SSD capacities are the differentiating factors...?

Or maybe Apple just refers to the multi-chips as "Dual M1 Max" & "Quad M1 Max"...?

Or M1 Max Dual & M1 Max Quad...?

Is it WWDC 2022 yet...?!? ;^p

 

[anthonymoody]

The M1 Max doesn’t beat the 18-core iMac Pro in certain workloads and surely Apple would want to crush a computer from 2017.

I agree with this, which gets to the heart of the question of whether or not Apple will release a Pro version of the upcoming larger iMac, or limit it to "regular but still powerful" iMac status.

If there is an iMac Pro, it has to smoke the 2017 iMac Pro. If it's "only" a larger iMac, then it has to be powerful but only in comparison to the regular 27" iMac. I'm hoping for an iMac Pro btw.

 

[Boil]

The M1 Max SoC seems like it should hold its own against either the 2017 27" iMac Pro or the 2020 27" iMac...

I could see a 27" iMac with the same SoC options as the 2021 MacBook Pro laptops (same for a new higher-end ASi Mac mini), and a 30" iMac Pro with dual & quad M1 Max options (same for the ASi Mac Pro Cube & Mac Pro Tower)...

Now, options for dual M1 Max SoCs in the high-end Mac mini & 27" iMac would be nice...

But if you want that Quad M1 Max SoC action, it's going to be something from the Mac Pro lineup; 30" iMac Pro, Mac Pro Cube, or Mac Pro Tower...