in 27 years of using computers from apple inc, i get my first lemon

[plinden]

For every user with a problem you get one of these people that invents bliss.

What the f*ck are you on about? I said I have one problem, slow wireless with WPA. I said I wasn't having any of the problems he had. I said I would take it back if I had the problems he had. The only one who's inventing anything here is you.

True...But jefhatfield is an Apple Tech and he is making a general assumption that the Intel macs suck based on his experience with one machine, so why can't plinden?

Seems unfair, IMO, to make a broad generalization based on one bad (or good for that matter) iMac...Although, at least he qualified his opinion as being based on his experience.

Contrary to what you and Mactruck are assuming I haven't made any sweeping generalizations. Where in my post did I say that because my iMac is ok, there were no problems with any iMac?

There are two Intel iMacs at issue here - mine doesn't show any of the problems the OP's showed. By providing a second data point I thought I was showing that the OP probably has a lemon and should get it fixed or replaced.

 

[emw]

What the f*ck are you on about?

I wouldn't sweat it - I've yet to come across a positive post from this guy.

How's that for a sweeping generalization?

 

[Josias]

To the d00d that started this thread: Wot are you going to do?

 

[jefhatfield]

To the d00d that started this thread: Wot are you going to do?

i have applecare and if anything acts up more than what i have seen, i will take the machine back to the apple store

right now, for internet and email, my client has his pc and things work seamlessly and i keep it that way

the imac will be for transferring an amazingly huge cd collection to itunes and then putting the best songs onto the ipod

the machine will be used for photo editing and digital video editing and so far, it's better than most PCs i have seen

and it will be used as a business database as auction items, which are sold the old fashioned way, are documented

and there will be the occassional business letter written, then printed up in microsoft word for mac

while this machine has its problems either due to lemon issues, or early adoption issues, it still is a useable machine for the home business of my father

i believe patches, and maybe even a newer, more relibable version of os x will come out for this dual imac

many people on this board have urged me to get the G5 imac, since it works more programs more error free, than having the latest and newest intel imac

....

i have nothing against intel...they power my clients' PC machines beautifully and have for years...it's just a short, awkward time for apple inc right now and my recommendation is to:

1) get a PPC mac like the quad G5

or

2) wait six months to a year, or year and a half, to get a mactel

...

in time things will all work out right and we will be happy will all aspects of mactels running os x

 

[Josias]

wait six months to a year, or year and a half, to get a mactel

I am stupid, but is a MacTel an intel mac?

 

[Edge100]

it's a dual core imac...at least this machine is either a lemon or the whole line is not ready for primetime

rosetta is slow and crashes

microsoft excel will rarely open

my dsl password gets kicked out

i can't enter many of my programs' preferences

i plugged my ipod nano into the usb port in back and it fried the port and the working port is only able to sync up half of the time

the browser opera cannot be shut down so i have to shut down the machine

....and many other issues

before this, with 8 years experience as a certified PC tech, and mac tech, i thought macs were generally better...but apple's transition to intel, if judging from this machine and the awful tech support and lack of knowledge of phone techs' working of a mactel, have led me to the conclusion that it is best to wait to buy a mactel

as an apple road technician, i never saw any major problems with macs on the powerpc architecture

but mactel is the biggest dog i have ever seen in my life

It seems to me that the more logical conclusion is that you got a bad machine. There are a few reasons for this:

1) If you assume that the quality of Apple's computers exists in a normal distribution, you're going to get most of the computers performing perfectly well overall, with only a few minor issues over time. You're also going to get anapproximately equal number of computers displaying absolutely no issues over the lifetime of the machine, and some that never work properly at all. Now, I would like to believe that Apple's normal distribution is moved to the right, relative to other makers (having fewer issues for the bulk of the consumers), but the fact is, some machines will have some issues. Its all mathematics, baby!

2) Your 28 years of excellent Apple products suggests they, for the most part, know what their doing. My 15 years of excellent Apple products suggests the same.

3) There have been MANY people who have reported very positive experiences with the Core Duo iMac.

You describe some very real problems, and it appears that your machine does not operate within spec. I'd make use of your Applecare and file a claim with Apple ASAP. They'll very likely find whatever the problem is and send you a fixed machine or just replace the whole thing.

I'm not sure how you can arrive at the conclusion that it is the Intel architecture that is the cause of the problem. There is absolutely no evidence that Intel is the cause. To make such a statement would require some sort of randomized control test, where an equivalent number of PPC and Intel Macs are chosen at random, and studied for specific, pre-chosen failures over time. If there is a problem with the Intel architecture, you'd see a larger difference in failures between the Intel and PPC machines than would be expected strictly by chance.

What you have is a correlation. What you're implying is a cause. Again, the sheer number of satisfied customers on this and other Internet boards would suggest the Intel iMac is just fine, on the whole, but of course, we can't really conclude anything without a lot more data, particularly since the Internet tends to expose dissatisfied people a lot more than satisfied customers. You also have 12 years of data on the PPC to consider, and only 3 months of data on the Intel Macs. That would unfairly skew the results in favour of the stability of the PPC Macs, since the sample size on the Intel Macs is too small and any failures would tend to quickly (and erroneously) drive up the failure rate of the Intel Macs.

Sorry for the long rant, but the 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' fallacy really gets under my skin!

 

[jefhatfield]

It seems to me that the more logical conclusion is that you got a bad machine. There are a few reasons for this:

1) If you assume that the quality of Apple's computers exists in a normal distribution, you're going to get most of the computers performing perfectly well overall, with only a few minor issues over time. You're also going to get anapproximately equal number of computers displaying absolutely no issues over the lifetime of the machine, and some that never work properly at all. Now, I would like to believe that Apple's normal distribution is moved to the right, relative to other makers (having fewer issues for the bulk of the consumers), but the fact is, some machines will have some issues. Its all mathematics, baby!

2) Your 28 years of excellent Apple products suggests they, for the most part, know what their doing. My 15 years of excellent Apple products suggests the same.

3) There have been MANY people who have reported very positive experiences with the Core Duo iMac.

You describe some very real problems, and it appears that your machine does not operate within spec. I'd make use of your Applecare and file a claim with Apple ASAP. They'll very likely find whatever the problem is and send you a fixed machine or just replace the whole thing.

I'm not sure how you can arrive at the conclusion that it is the Intel architecture that is the cause of the problem. There is absolutely no evidence that Intel is the cause. To make such a statement would require some sort of randomized control test, where an equivalent number of PPC and Intel Macs are chosen at random, and studied for specific, pre-chosen failures over time. If there is a problem with the Intel architecture, you'd see a larger difference in failures between the Intel and PPC machines than would be expected strictly by chance.

What you have is a correlation. What you're implying is a cause. Again, the sheer number of satisfied customers on this and other Internet boards would suggest the Intel iMac is just fine, on the whole, but of course, we can't really conclude anything without a lot more data, particularly since the Internet tends to expose dissatisfied people a lot more than satisfied customers. You also have 12 years of data on the PPC to consider, and only 3 months of data on the Intel Macs. That would unfairly skew the results in favour of the stability of the PPC Macs, since the sample size on the Intel Macs is too small and any failures would tend to quickly (and erroneously) drive up the failure rate of the Intel Macs.

Sorry for the long rant, but the 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' fallacy really gets under my skin!

first, produce the list of large number of happy mactel users

also refute my six years of phd study in computer engineering

also refute my graduate level study in statistics

i am not a freaking idiot and obviously you have not read the f***ing thread

EDIT:

man, that sounded harsh

i need to get my backside spanked by alphatech!!!

I am stupid, but is a MacTel an intel mac?

mactel, short for a mac runnning on an intel processor(s)...and as i stated before, things will get ironed out and they will one day kick PPCs ass with os x...i hope

 

[Demon Hunter]

I'd try to reset everything first (after repairing permissions) like open firmware reset, pram, pmu. If that doesn't work I'd try a clean install, if that doesn't work go to the Apple store.

Open firmware is history, isn't it? Replaced by EFI?

 

[Diatribe]

first, produce the list of large number of happy mactel users

also refute my six years of phd study in computer engineering

also refute my graduate level study in statistics

i am not a freaking idiot and obviously you have not read the f***ing thread

EDIT:

man, that sounded harsh

i need to get my backside spanked by alphatech!!!

Seriously, just do what I said in my post above and reset everything then try to reinstall if that doesn't help Software problems can always appear. Especially when transferring data onto a new system. If you have done so and it still doesn't work get it looked at or changed and if it doesn't work then, and THEN complain about Intel and Apple switching. Until you've done what YOU can, stop complaining, seriously.

I know 3 people with MBPs and 2 with an Intel iMac and they all have none of your problems.

Open firmware is history, isn't it? Replaced by EFI?

True. Forgot about that. Well, since nobody knows the commands besides Apple yet, this would be one thing to take it in for, but PMU, pram, permissions, and reinstall are still options. Especially when the machine is new and you can easily back up your data.

jef: I mean, you could just bring it in like that but the guy there isn't going to do anything different.

 

[DrStrangelove]

mactel, short for a mac runnning on an intel processor(s)...and as i stated before, things will get ironed out and they will one day kick PPCs ass with os x...i hope

I just hope, having bought my iMac in the beginning of February, that whatever hardware problems may exists are correctable with software/firmware updates.

I have a FEW minor problems but nothing to speak of. Of course, I really don't do anything all that labor intensive with my computer so I don't think I'm a good representative to speak about some of the larger issues/complaints I've heard.

Overall I'm very happy with my purchase and switch to mac.

 

[jefhatfield]

Seriously, just do what I said in my post above and reset everything then try to reinstall if that doesn't help Software problems can always appear. Especially when transferring data onto a new system. If you have done so and it still doesn't work get it looked at or changed and if it doesn't work then, and THEN complain about Intel and Apple switching. Until you've done what YOU can, stop complaining, seriously.

I know 3 people with MBPs and 2 with an Intel iMac and they all have none of your problems.

once i get over my anger and feeling of betrayal, from apple inc, i will try those things...and thanks for the suggestions (from you and everybody else)...and then i will see if things work

ironically, i have heard only pretty good things about the mac book pro

he he, maybe my dad should have got that machine

 

[Diatribe]

And to everyone saying a fresh install is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY on a new machine... you're nuts. I've switched and upgraded so many people to new Macs and always went the "take data from old Macs". I have never had any problems with that. I just did it with mine and it works perfectly.
Yes there can be problems but then again you can also get hit by a car when crossing a street...

once i get over my anger and feeling of betrayal, from apple inc, i will try those things...and thanks for the suggestions (from you and everybody else)...and then i will see if things work

ironically, i have heard only pretty good things about the mac book pro

he he, maybe my dad should have got that machine

That's all right but if you get betrayed THAT easily over a simple mishap how does your partner deal with you?

 

[plinden]

i have applecare and if anything acts up more than what i have seen, i will take the machine back to the apple store

I think with the long list of problems you are seeing, you are justified in taking it back now (if following Diatribe's advice you got doesn't solve anything).

My iMac is the most stable computer I've ever had (and I've been very lucky with 25 years of using computers, never having any serious issue, not even a dead hard drive or failed PSU), but any one of the issues you've mentioned would cause me no end of frustration.

 

[Edge100]

first, produce the list of large number of happy mactel users

also refute my six years of phd study in computer engineering

also refute my graduate level study in statistics

i am not a freaking idiot and obviously you have not read the f***ing thread

EDIT:

man, that sounded harsh

i need to get my backside spanked by alphatech!!!

I'm not saying you're a freaking idiot. But you committed a clear coincidence/causality fallacy. Surely your Ph.D. and your graduate level statistics would tell you that coincidence NEVER implies causality. The Intel architecture very well maybe the cause of your problems, as you implied. Or it may simply be that you got your first bad Apple product in 27 years. How would you know?

The problem is, the Internet is lousy with people saying all sorts of crazy things, and lousy with people willing to believe anything without asking questions.

As it stands right now, I'd say the problem is likely specific to your machine. There ARE problems common to the Core Duo machines. Airport bandwidth is crap. It's been posted here, on the Apple forums...just about anywhere Mac users post. That DOES NOT IMPLY that all Core Duos are afflicted with the problem, but there are quite a few.

If you search these forums and the Apple forums, you'll also find MANY users who are very happy with their Core Duos. And as I said, you are far more likely to post online if you have problems than if you're happy.

Surely you're familiar with the concept of sample bias?

Oh, and my Ph.D. in Molecular Medicine and my graduate level statistics tell me you made a logical error, and I'm calling you on it. I hope you get your machine fixed, but don't go casting blame until you have some sort of proof. Someone reading this thread could easily think, "Hey, jefhatfield says the Core Duo is bad and its because of the Intel architecture. Man, Apple dropped the ball. I'm getting a Dell."

That kind of misinformation, while not a very big deal when it comes to buying a computer, is VERY important when people make bad choices about other important things.

 

[Dane D.]

After reading this thread I'm surprised no one mentioned this:

Wipe HD and install Windows

Just kidding, I think you got a lemon. I've been using Macs since the IIcx came out and never have a bad one yet. I hope Apple is addressing these issues with the next generation of Mactels. Till then, I'll stick with the PPC, and read about all these problems and file them away for future reference. I would take it back and ask for a replacement based on your documented problems.

 

[Edge100]

After reading this thread I'm surprised no one mentioned this:

Wipe HD and install Windows

Just kidding, I think you got a lemon. I've been using Macs since the IIcx came out and never have a bad one yet. I hope Apple is addressing these issues with the next generation of Mactels. Till then, I'll stick with the PPC, and read about all these problems and file them away for future reference. I would take it back and ask for a replacement based on your documented problems.

I still don't get it. Are the Intel Macs having a disproportionate number of failures/serious issues that the last generation of PPC Macs did not have? I can think of at least ten fairly common issues that plagued specific PPC Macs during the last 3-5 years. Here are five:

- 'wind-tunnel'-like Quicksilver Powermacs
- sketchy displays on early eMacs
- Poor Airport reception on Titanium Powerbooks
- Logic board failures on iBooks
- Absolutely atrocious FW800 throughput on the G5 Powermacs

The fact that the Intel Macs are having issues doesn't suggest there is a problem with the intel architecture. It suggests they are computers; subject to the same flaws as other computers made by the same company. I just don't see that there are a larger number of issues with these Intel Macs than we have ever seen with other PPC-based Macs. There are always problems that are endemic to a specific model of computer. But whether any current issues can be explained by virtue of the new Intel architecture is difficult to say at this point.

Maybe I'm getting too worked up about this particular issue, but I think its just case in point of a larger problem of people assigning blame (cause) erroneously, or at the very least based on less than compelling arguments. As I said above, it doesn't really matter when people make this mistake about a computer purchase, but there are decisions that people make every day that are based on these types of fallacies. A little bit more thoughtful insight on everyone's part would surely go a long way.

 

[jefhatfield]

anyway, i am calm now and past the point of wanting to use the intel mac as a doorstop

one of my personal friends who knows macs better than anybody i know has determined that the specific problems i am having could be a faulty hard drive vs. just a faulty os trying its wings out on intel architecture

at least my dad has applecare and if it's a hard drive issue, then maybe a new hard drive could solve some of the problems...my knowledgeable friend had very similar issues with a dual G5 powermac and when the hard drive was replaced, the problems went away

so we will see and all this will take time...anyway, thanks folks

signing off,

jef

 

[Arcus]

first, produce the list of large number of happy mactel users

also refute my six years of phd study in computer engineering

also refute my graduate level study in statistics

i am not a freaking idiot and obviously you have not read the f***ing thread

EDIT:

man, that sounded harsh

i need to get my backside spanked by alphatech!!!




mactel, short for a mac runnning on an intel processor(s)...and as i stated before, things will get ironed out and they will one day kick PPCs ass with os x...i hope

I deal with a lady at Weidner University that has a PHD in CompSci. She teaches a network security course.

We contracted with her to do a website. When I sent her some data to pull into some tables in a comma delim format she said she couldnt read the files. I tried to explain to her how to open it with notepad , BBEEdit , shove a .csv on the end and open it with excel etc etc and she could not open it. She insisted that I resend with the .csv extension. She could not get the fact that the extension does not dictate the format of data in the file is all cases and she couldn't understand that it was just an ASCII file.

Someone please explain how she got her PHD in computer science?

I guess she fits right in with the guy I met at Borders buying a Windows for Dummies book so he could get a few tricks after just completing and getting his MCP....

 

[asencif]

I deal with a lady at Weidner University that has a PHD in CompSci. She teaches a network security course.

We contracted with her to do a website. When I sent her some data to pull into some tables in a comma delim format she said she couldnt read the files. I tried to explain to her how to open it with notepad , BBEEdit , shove a .csv on the end and open it with excel etc etc and she could not open it. She insisted that I resend with the .csv extension. She could not get the fact that the extension does not dictate the format of data in the file is all cases and she couldn't understand that it was just an ASCII file.

Someone please explain how she got her PHD in computer science?

I guess she fits right in with the guy I met at Borders buying a Windows for Dummies book so he could get a few tricks after just completing and getting his MCP....

Having a degree doesn't stamp you as a genius or have the same value it once did. Yes it's good to have a PHD, bachelors, certification, or Associates, however this does not prove your knowledge in an area completely anymore. Unfortunately, many people are just getting by in college with cheating or cramming the day before and then forgetting about what they learn. There's a lot of just let me finish quick and get out since I have better things to do and I want to make money.

To prove your worth these days you have to show your knowledge constantly and keep learning day by day especially in the field of technology. Experience has gotten extremely more important than before as many colleges have failed to keep up with the changing business world. Curriculums are not updated fast enough and there just to out of the whole loop. Many come out unprepared. So now we have guy's trashing certain people in the technology industry because of some bad ones. I am seeing this in other career fields as well, Graphic Designers, Psychologists, and even doctors that look lost out there (scary thing). Anyway, I aplogize for the totally off topic post.

Yeah...Try the re-install...If that doesn't work, take it back to Apple.

 

[BakedBeans]

I am in the same boat as Plinden here, My iMac is simply flawless (not counting the silly WPA2 thing of course, which is indeed.... a flaw) Its not missed a beat since i have had it (including M$ Oriffice, Adobe Photoshop and Macromedia studio - all under rosetta) and I've pushed it really hard lately


To advise people to hold of buying MacTel - thats a little harsh seeing as the amount of perfect iMacs vastly outweigh problematic ones (again, not including the silly WPA thing)

 

[jefhatfield]

I deal with a lady at Weidner University that has a PHD in CompSci. She teaches a network security course.

We contracted with her to do a website. When I sent her some data to pull into some tables in a comma delim format she said she couldnt read the files. I tried to explain to her how to open it with notepad , BBEEdit , shove a .csv on the end and open it with excel etc etc and she could not open it. She insisted that I resend with the .csv extension. She could not get the fact that the extension does not dictate the format of data in the file is all cases and she couldn't understand that it was just an ASCII file.

Someone please explain how she got her PHD in computer science?

I guess she fits right in with the guy I met at Borders buying a Windows for Dummies book so he could get a few tricks after just completing and getting his MCP....

education by itself is a good thing...at the very least it gives a person something to do out of the ordinary for two, four, six, or eight years...in my case, and many others, the gift of lifelong learning

a phd in computer science is based mostly on learning new, at the time, computer languages, where one in computer engineering can focus just on processor architecture for instance, or a grad degree in information management can be largely non technical even though the holder of such a degree may make 200k a year in silicon valley

computers in general is such a large field that no one person can know it all and at best they can become an unrecognized specialist...only the very very best phd's, or non phd/master's grads, or even non college grads (like jobs, ellison, and gates) achieve name recognition outside of the computer field

i lived with a female genius girl in college who got her bachelor's in astrophysics and english, but who also displayed an academic interest in chemistry...she and her teacher got so close they became domestic partners...when her relationship ended, amicably, she went on to further graduate work, in several unrelated areas and moved to berkeley where she went to cal...there, she reestablished herself as a middle east moderator and married a jewish man...ironically, years before, she was married to a political moderator who was a member of the plo who was in a wing of that organization that worked towards a compromise with israel...on the side, she writes science fiction books and is an advocate for rent control and children's rights...she is, in short, a modern renaissance person and realizes that her degrees, and post graduate degrees, are only a small part of who she is on her goal to attain as much knowledge as she can and apply it in a good way to the world

while i myself am not a genius, i have took her on as a role model and started off with finishing a couple of undergraduate degrees like her, and have spent the last 12 years on graduate studies and independent study in various subjects (arts managment, mba, computer engineering, tax law, labor law) to broaden myself and try and bring skills to the table to help others...but i don't see myself as anything close to a renaissance person

while i believe i understand computers pretty well, i have no idea what your post is talking about

oh, and by the way, i am also a microsoft MCP, and there are actually a lot of things all MCPs can learn from a windows for dummies book...as a matter of fact, there is information in books like that which is unknown to many computer science and computer engineering phd and master's degree holders

just as an experiment, i am assuming you are of a certain maturity, i hope, so pick up a book on sex for dummies, and i bet there will be something in there you don't know...i am not saying this to insult you, but check it out next time you are at borders...the point is nobody can know everything about everything, especially something as intimate and basic as procreation, and it is debateable if any one person can know everything about a small sliver of their chosen field of study

some, who are not experts in a field, excel at an unrelated field...rent the movie kinsey with liam neeson for a perfect historical example of this

 

[BakedBeans]

If i was a mod, I would have slammed the door on this thread ages ago - what does it add to the forum? people measuring their craniums (I really wanted to say something else) only makes them look like pompous asses

This thread should be about computers, not about how book smart you are.

You can learn everything ever written and still not be smart or a genius. Genius comes from within, you are born a genius you cannot learn it. Going to collage and getting PHD's will never make you really clever because you're just following what others have found out for themselves.

12 years learning to get letters after your name, just like a load of other people, I would sooner be doing something productive. Learning something for myself maybe?

For someone with such a prestigious qualification in statistics you don't seem to have such a great grasp on the law of averages (yes, I know). Your iMac might well be a duff but that doesn't make every other machine a duff and it doesn't mean people should wait to buy one.

Now, be smart enough to fix your problem and not waste your time talking about how qualified you are

 

[jefhatfield]

If i was a mod, I would have slammed the door on this thread ages ago - what does it add to the forum? people measuring their craniums (I really wanted to say something else) only makes them look like pompous asses

This thread should be about computers, not about how book smart you are.

You can learn everything ever written and still not be smart or a genius. Genius comes from within, you are born a genius you cannot learn it. Going to collage and getting PHD's will never make you really clever because you're just following what others have found out for themselves.

12 years learning to get letters after your name, just like a load of other people, I would sooner be doing something productive. Learning something for myself maybe?

For someone with such a prestigious qualification in statistics you don't seem to have such a great grasp on the law of averages (yes, I know). Your iMac might well be a duff but that doesn't make every other machine a duff and it doesn't mean people should wait to buy one.

Now, be smart enough to fix your problem and not waste your time talking about how qualified you are

self education is definitely best

did you mention that we should measure our penises instead i am sure you might have wanted to say how long is your penis vs. the other members on the board and that is acceptable, but really no more off topic on the subject than many of the posts here have been

these threads often get way off topic and being the oldest poster on macrumors i could tell you about some doozies in the past...like people posting pics of their daily bowel movements...oh, and that thread, being one of the longest and most popular, was started by a moderator

in statistics, there is no such thing as a law of averages but there are terms such as median, mode, outliers, standard deviation, histograms/histographs, chi square, and normal distribution

 

[BakedBeans]

i am sure you might have wanted to say how long is your penis vs. the other members on the board and that is acceptable, but really no more off topic on the subject than many of the posts here have been

Errrrr.... No, I dont and I did not suggest otherwise.

in statistics, there is no such thing as a law of averages but there are terms such as median, mode, outliers, standard deviation, histograms/histographs, chi square, and normal distribution

You might want to read my bracketed comment.

I just don't get all this "I've got this qualification" and "As the oldest poster" stuff is about, are you insecure enough to have to blurt it at every opportunity? Just revel in your intellectual superiority quietly please ( thats a joke BTW )

 

[jefhatfield]

Errrrr.... No, I dont and I did not suggest otherwise.

ok, then i admit it is my dirty mind...plus i should have looked at your avatar first

are you that pretty girl in the avatar?

well, right now i am going to flagellate my self 40 times for my twisted mind