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snberk103

macrumors 603
Oct 22, 2007
5,503
91
An Island in the Salish Sea
Gates bought DOS from some other guy...win ran on top of it w/ added 32 bit extensions. Then Gates bought and Microsoft further developed NT and windows is now based on proprietary NT technology.

OSX is a glorified user interface for BSD, something akin to Gnome and KDE for Linux.

Xerox did NOT license their ideas to Apple.

Jobs offered Xerox an investment in Apple, with the seemingly innocent condition that Jobs and crew get a tour of PARC in return.



I must be one of the few people who have ever taken the time to check this claim out instead of just repeating it.

Xerox paid $1.5 million for that 100,000 shares of Apple stock in August 1979. It split, and they sold 800,000 shares in Oct 1981 for $6,776,000, for a meager profit of ~$5.2 million.

Xerox sold 25,000 of their 1981 Star graphical microcomputers at around $50,000 for a typical office set of two with a server and printer, for a total of at least $600 million, profit unknown, but undoubtedly much more than what they got from the Apple stock.

So Xerox would've (and did) make far more money selling their own UI ideas.

Two points of clarification here. Microsoft worked with IBM to develop a new OS, after DOS. (And there are plenty of people who believe MS stole DOS) IBM did the heavy lifting, and MS was supposed to make it look pretty. MS then decided to split from IBM once the OS was developed. IBM sold it as OS/2, and MS built NT on it. The cross licensing allowed IBM to sell Windows 3.1 as part of OS/2 - and for a few years the NTFS (NT OS File system) and HPFS (OS/2 file system) were compatible.

Incidentally, MS paid IBM close to a $Billion a fews ago to settle the civil suits IBM had filed regarding that OS/2 and Windows.

Xerox would have made a lot more money from Apple stock if they hadn't sold so early. S you can't compare the non-monetary value of something based on when Xerox chose to sell stock, or not.

There is nothing new under the sun. Is anybody really "innovating" in the computer industry? They all use transistors and electrons, after all.

Edison didn't invent the lightbulb.... he innovated it. Edison bought the lightbulb patent from a couple of fellows in Toronto, who had this interesting idea - but couldn't make it work on a large scale. Edison worked out how to make the lightbulb usable. Does that make his work any less revolutionary? Without Edison, we may still be reading our computers by candle light. :D
 

sjinsjca

macrumors 68020
Oct 30, 2008
2,239
557
We'd have to look up to see who wrote that Wiki entry, because in fact there has never been any indication (or claim by Jobs, for that matter) that Xerox licensed anything to Apple in exchange for the stock option. Every single personal history, from PARC or Apple, agrees that Xerox simply agreed to give a demo.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The depiction I've related, though admittedly anecdotal, is a distillation of what I've been directly told by folks (plural) who were there. But it's still hearsay, and I share your frustration that the concrete documentation is long faded.

Even the very next sentence in that Wikipedia reference talks about Xerox later suing Apple. If Apple was licensed to use Xerox IP, then Xerox would not have filed a lawsuit claiming that Apple had stolen copyrighted ideas from PARC.

For all practical purposes, they didn't. A new Xerox CEO who had not been involved insisted on the suit; both it and he did not last long. What is known is that the lawsuit ended abruptly after the judge was presented documents by Apple, and there are persistent reports/allegations that the statute of limitations had expired as well, though it's hard to imagine Xerox's lawyers being so lame as to overlook something that fundamental.

In comparison to the amount of money that Apple (and others) would make off GUIs, a few million dollars was tiny.

LOL. No one held a gun to their head and forced them to sell at the two-year mark. It's intriguing to conjecture what Xerox's world would be like if they'd held the shares to this day. ...Another squandered opportunity for Xerox, among a gazillion squandered opportunities.

We might was well ask why the Apple Lisa wasn't a success.

Actually, that is a very good comment. My read: they both failed for lack of sufficient innovation on the manufacturing-cost and marketing side. The Mac was Apple's next attempt at successfully concluding the task that Apple had set for itself: to bring GUI technology to everyday users. Lisa was too costly for that.


It's pretty well established that the main reason for the second visit was not just to get more info, but mostly to convince the software illiterate Jobs that the Mac team should be allowed to continue work on a GUI of some sort.

We should all be so software illiterate. Jobs' work at NeXT suggests he learned the lessons of object-oriented programming he was exposed to in those two meetings. Not well enough to drive the Mac in that direction, perhaps (until Steve rev. 2 and the NeXTSTEP-based OS X), but learn it he did.

But here's my problem. Your phrasing ("the software illiterate Jobs") reflects a certain simmering hatred that's unbecoming. No entrepreneur in recent memory has accomplished what Steve Jobs has. Most history-making entrepreneurs satisfy themselves with revolutionizing or creating one market or industry. Ford and Whitney are examples. Edison, like Jobs, revolutionized or created several industries: motion pictures, electric lighting, generation, the phonograph... Jobs did it with personal computers (Apple II), did it again with personal computers (Mac), did it again with personal computers (iPad), did it with smartphones (iPhone), did it with animated feature films (Pixar), did it with personal media (iPod)... and the guy's only in his mid-fifties. In each case, like Edison, his accomplishment was not of the mad-scientist-with-light-bulb-over-his-head variety but the result of steady-handed construction of cross-functional teams driven by vision and customer-centricity.

It sends some folks into frothing paroxysms of pique, but the fact is that Jobs is sui generis, the world's most talented and accomplished serial business builder, and neither you nor I are fit to carry his pencil-case. You don't have to like him as a human being (fondness for Woz-the-human, by comparison, is mandatory), but as a businessman the guy's a freakin' divide-by-zero singularity.
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
We'd have to look up to see who wrote that Wiki entry, because in fact there has never been any indication (or claim by Jobs, for that matter) that Xerox licensed anything to Apple in exchange for the stock option. Every single personal history, from PARC or Apple, agrees that Xerox simply agreed to give a demo.

Even the very next sentence in that Wikipedia reference talks about Xerox later suing Apple. If Apple was licensed to use Xerox IP, then Xerox would not have filed a lawsuit claiming that Apple had stolen copyrighted ideas from PARC.



In comparison to the amount of money that Apple (and others) would make off GUIs, a few million dollars was tiny.



We might was well ask why the Apple Lisa wasn't a success.

Personally, I don't hold to the idea that Apple totally stole PARC's GUI from the two visits. Much of the PARC information was already available.

It's pretty well established that the main reason for the second visit was not just to get more info, but mostly to convince the software illiterate Jobs that the Mac team should be allowed to continue work on a GUI of some sort.

This is a great example on why wiki is never really considered a valid source. I have seen people try to use wiki as reference of research papers which never valid.
Like kdarling pointed out that page has pretty clear bias in it.
 

vvswarup

macrumors 6502a
Jul 21, 2010
544
225
The underlying concepts (e.g. multitouch) have been around for years. Agreed. But in my book, proving that those concepts can be successfully implemented in a mass market device is innovation.

I want to say a few things specifically about the iPad. Yes, tablets have been around for years before the iPad. However, it's not the iPad as a tablet that's revolutionary. It's the paradigm that a tablet ought to have a touch-optimized UI.

A lot of people panned the iPad as being a "giant iPod Touch." That is probably one of the iPad's greatest strengths. Let me show you how. The iPad uses almost the exact same UI as that found in the iPod Touch and iPhone. Anyone who's used either of these products already knows how to use an iPad. The adjustment is not as big as it would be when using a Windows tablet, where most people are used to using a mouse/keyboard.

Also, Apple has always employed the concept of "economies of scale" to great success. Basically, Apple gets the best per-unit prices on components because they buy large quantities and pay upfront. The components in the iPad and the iPhone/iPod Touch are very similar. Apple can employ "economies of scale" to an even greater extent than what they already do. This has the welcome side effect of blocking out competitors who have to wait until component suppliers fill Apple's orders before getting theirs filled. The shortage of components drives up prices for competitors and squeezes their profit margins.

Also, the operating system in the iPad is substantially the same. Therefore, Apple can maintain tight integration across all of their products. Engineers working on iOS can serve three product lines at once.
 
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