Intel 12900HK is faster than M1 Max for both single and multi cores.

[Romain_H]

We've had something like 7 motherboard replacements over nVidia graphics issues. I can understand why Apple was upset but that was back in 2013 and earlier. Surely they could let it go by now.

Indeed. Plus AMD had its share of failing GPUs as well; so it may not be that.

There are rumors floating that Nvidia at some point threatened to sue Apple over some patents or so, what pi**** off Apple and utterly destroyed confidence in Nvidias business practices

 

[Melbourne Park]

Well, it appears - to ignorant me - that Apple have given up on add-on GPUs. I don't think any M supports an external GPU (via T-3 ports). With an intel Mac Pro, you can buy several very costly GPUs to get your work done. Doing so can cost more than the Mac Pro. My presumption is that Apple's solution, will be to add more GPUs on M Mac Pros, by adding more Max processors.

Looking at the price of a MCP, if you get the Pro processor with 32 GB RAM, it costs inc tax $3,100. Add the Max 32 core it costs $400 extra. So you get the more capable GPU configuration that way.

Now the price of a gaming style AMD Radeon RX 6800 XT (much cheaper than CAD orientation Pro cards) is listed at around $1,350, when they become available.

So ... it seems to me that Apple could sell four Pro to Max upgrades for that much money. A Pro card costs multiple more amounts ... I wonder what Apple might come up with in a new gen M based Mac Pro tower?

 

[Romain_H]

… or some sort of novel interfacing tech

 

[Rigby]

It’s true they probably lost the 2022 iPhones but companies still tend to be strategic. TSMC is basically fabrication and packaging. They’re not like Intel or Samsung in that regard who acting as a foundry for others naturally conflicts with our aspects of their business. But that means helping a rival bridge the gap has a lot worse implications for them. You laid those out yourself.

Intel's money helps them finance their new fabs. If they turned Intel down, they'd lose big orders for 3nm and it still wouldn't impact Intel's manufacturing plans. At worst they'd lose some market share to AMD if they had less competitive server CPUs, but that doesn't help TSMC.

So no I think either Intel had to write them a blank cheque or they were worried about their own node losing customers anyway. As you say the 2022 iPhones will already have to be manufactured on their 4nm process if Apple decides to maintain its roadmaps and still use them (which is the most likely future).

Yeah, but that's a different fab. Absent the iPhone, I don't think there is any customer for the 3nm chips in 2022 that would place orders of comparable size as Intel.

 

[Rigby]

Your right ... typing too quick. Their revenue is I think, double that of Intels.

Nvidia had about $11 billion revenue in 2020, Intel about $78 billion. Nvidia has about 3 times the market cap though, because they are perceived as a growth company by the market.

And Apple hates them, so posters here say.

They'd probably not be very happy if the Nvidia acquisition of ARM went through

Edit - I should add too, that AMD's revenue growth has been quite substantial. Unlike Intel's. I don't know why though - maybe they are buying companies, which is often a false way to appear to be growing. Unless you pick the right company.

AMD's revenue was under $10 billion last year, but it's true that they have seen good growth, profiting from Intel's problems.

 

[crazy dave]

Indeed. Plus AMD had its share of failing GPUs as well; so it may not be that.

There are rumors floating that Nvidia at some point threatened to sue Apple over some patents or so, what pi**** off Apple and utterly destroyed confidence in Nvidias business practices

It’s even more complicated than that - it involves OpenCL and Metal vs CUDA, a lack of support from either company for either’s platform, and Nvidia outpacing AMD which meant the latter was willing to sell their chips lower.

 

[Melbourne Park]

They'd (Apple) probably not be very happy if the Nvidia acquisition of ARM went through


AMD's revenue was under $10 billion last year, but it's true that they have seen good growth, profiting from Intel's problems.

Evidently up to 40 billion to buy ARM.

Poor old Apple. They have over $60 billion sitting in the bank as we speak, not earning much at all due to low interest rates. But Nvidia's value has increased over 10 times in just 5 years. Apple's (2.4 Trillion) now worth only 4 times as much as Nvidia (600 bill). Intel is worth a quarter more than AMD (200 bill v 150 bill), and just one third of Nvidia's market capitalization.

I recall with the rush on internet stocks - the dotcom era - telling two couples ( both relatives of mine) at an Easter family lunch, who had sold their houses to buy into the stocks, that the only company that would soon make a profit was Amazon. They all lost a fortune. But then, I've never made one. I sleep well at night though.

 

[theotherphil]

The crown doesn’t matter, it’s all about market share. X86 is still over 90%

Tell that to blackberry.

 

[crazy dave]

Intel's money helps them finance their new fabs. If they turned Intel down, they'd lose big orders for 3nm and it still wouldn't impact Intel's manufacturing plans. At worst they'd lose some market share to AMD if they had less competitive server CPUs, but that doesn't help TSMC.

They supposedly already get that money from Apple, secured years in advance. That’s what I’m saying they’d have to get that and more from Intel.

Yeah, but that's a different fab. Absent the iPhone, I don't think there is any customer for the 3nm chips in 2022 that would place orders of comparable size as Intel.

That was my point: if the reports are accurate it’s that TSMC are worried about 3nm customers that the delay and quality (we know it isn’t gaa) are such that they could lose customers for that node over its lifespan. Also it has to be late 2022, not Q2 … or Apple would be using them.

 

[Romain_H]

I doubt TSMC has to fear losing customers for the foreseeable future though. Quite the opposite

 

[Rigby]

They supposedly already get that money from Apple, secured years in advance. That’s what I’m saying they’d have to get that and more from Intel.

I doubt it. There isn't any downside for them in taking Intel's money in this case.

That was my point: if the reports are accurate it’s that TSMC are worried about 3nm customers that the delay and quality (we know it isn’t gaa) are such that they could lose customers for that node over its lifespan. Also it has to be late 2022, not Q2 … or Apple would be using them.

I haven't heard anything about quality concerns for TSMC 3nm. It may cause them to fall behind Samsung and Intel though, because they seem to be late with the transition to GAA.

At the end of the day there aren't that many huge customers for bleeding edge CPUs. It's essentially Apple (i-devices) and (now) Intel. AMD is much smaller than either of them.

 

[quarkysg]

Poor old Apple. They have over $60 billion sitting in the bank as we speak, not earning much at all due to low interest rates. But Nvidia's value has increased over 10 times in just 5 years. Apple's (2.4 Trillion) now worth only 4 times as much as Nvidia (600 bill). Intel is worth a quarter more than AMD (200 bill v 150 bill), and just one third of Nvidia's market capitalization.

Apple has a lot more than $60b cash reserves, but their debt has increased tho. due to them taking advantage of low interest rates to finance their share buy backs and dividend payouts.

A company's market cap does nothing for the company in terms of cash flows or operations. It's a good bragging right tho. and I think that's about it. Increasing market cap benefits shareholders.

 

[jdb8167]

Maybe. But it's also possible that they see an opportunity to turn the tables with the switch to GAA transistors in a couple of years, which is an inflection point for the industry. TSMC appears to be slipping on that (and have also delayed the 3nm FinFET-based process).

If TSMC is having trouble with 3nm (and there are reports that they are delayed), then that is bad for Intel too since other reports have Intel buying up a substantial portion of TSMC's future 3nm fab production.

 

[crazy dave]

I doubt it. There isn't any downside for them in taking Intel's money in this case.

Of course there are, you listed some of them yourself. AMD and Apple becoming supply constrained means potentially less future business from them for TSMC. Intel has stated unequivocally that they want to their own fabs to reach parity with TSMC and take their customers … including whatever business Intel has sent to TSMC. If I were TSMC I’d want a prince’s ransom from Intel to make sure that no matter what I end up ahead. In fact, people thought it was in light of the shortages, but TSMC has instituted new rules about its fab capacity and its customers. Again TSMC is not Samsung or Intel when it comes to the foundry business. It isn’t just a division for them. It’s a different business model.

I haven't heard anything about quality concerns for TSMC 3nm. It may cause them to fall behind Samsung and Intel though, because they seem to be late with the transition to GAA.

At the end of the day there aren't that many huge customers for bleeding edge CPUs. It's essentially Apple (i-devices) and (now) Intel. AMD is much smaller than either of them.

It’s the lack of transition to GAA that I’m referring to here. Right now they have node advantage. Depending on the quality of 3nm that could be important (think planar 20nm). However maybe there’s no problem beyond the delay. In which case return to point 1). Also AMD is not that small anymore (thanks to Intel’s missteps) and is reported to be on the same or similar node as Apple next year - some unspecified 5nm+ node, either 4nm or something else. It was you who brought up Intel constraining both AMD and Apple fabrication as a bonus to Intel getting TSMC 3nm.

An interesting twist is that by placing large orders for TSMC 3nm chips, Intel will take away manufacturing capacities from rivals, including AMD and Apple, which are already struggling with supply constraints.

 

[pshufd]

Of course there are, you listed some of them yourself. AMD and Apple becoming supply constrained means potentially less future business from them for TSMC. Intel has stated unequivocally that they want to their own fabs to reach parity with TSMC and take their customers … including whatever business Intel has sent to TSMC. If I were TSMC I’d want a prince’s ransom from Intel to make sure that no matter what I end up ahead. In fact, people thought it was in light of the shortages, but TSMC has instituted new rules about its fab capacity and its customers. Again TSMC is not Samsung or Intel when it comes to the foundry business. It isn’t just a division for them. It’s a different business model.

It’s the lack of transition to GAA that I’m referring to here. Right now they have node advantage. Depending on the quality of 3nm that could be important (think planar 20nm). However maybe there’s no problem beyond the delay. In which case return to point 1). Also AMD is not that small anymore (thanks to Intel’s missteps) and is reported to be on the same or similar node as Apple next year - some unspecified 5nm+ node, either 4nm or something else. It was you who brought up Intel constraining both AMD and Apple fabrication as a bonus to Intel getting TSMC 3nm.

There may be national security considerations for Intel and Taiwan Semi as well when China reclaims Taiwan.

 

[Rigby]

Of course there are, you listed some of them yourself. AMD and Apple becoming supply constrained means potentially less future business from them for TSMC.

I don't see how. It's not like AMD and Apple can just go somewhere else. That's the problem when you depend to a large extent on a single supplier.

Intel has stated unequivocally that they want to their own fabs to reach parity with TSMC and take their customers … including whatever business Intel has sent to TSMC.

Yes, and they'll do that whether TSMC manufactures some chips for them in the meantime or not. I think it's smart for TSMC to take Intel's money, which they need for CapEx and, in turn, Intel can't use to speed up development of their own fabs. It's also possible that Intel will continue to use TSMC even after they catch up, to be able have more flexibility in responding to market demand.

It was you who brought up Intel constraining both AMD and Apple fabrication as a bonus to Intel getting TSMC 3nm.

I don't see a contradiction. It's a nice side effect from Intel's perspective.

 

[crazy dave]

I don't see how. It's not like AMD and Apple can just go somewhere else. That's the problem when you depend to a large extent on a single supplier.


Yes, and they'll do that whether TSMC manufactures some chips for them in the meantime or not. I think it's smart for TSMC to take Intel's money, which they need for CapEx and, in turn, Intel can't use to speed up development of their own fabs. It's also possible that Intel will continue to use TSMC even after they catch up, to be able have more flexibility in responding to market demand.


I don't see a contradiction. It's a nice side effect from Intel's perspective.

Samsung … and Intel. Neither AMD nor Apple are tied to TSMC if they have to go somewhere else for their business

 

[JMacHack]

Samsung … and Intel. Neither AMD nor Apple are tied to TSMC if they have to go somewhere else for their business

I don’t think Intels fabs are for anyone but Intel. And the way they’re acting I don’t think that’s going to change any time soon.

 

[pshufd]

I don’t think Intels fabs are for anyone but Intel. And the way they’re acting I don’t think that’s going to change any time soon.

Pat Gelsinger said that they are want to fab for other companies.

CNBC: 'Intel is back:' New CEO's plan to make chips for other companies excites investors

Gelsinger on Tuesday showed that he is wasting no time making big changes. The most significant shift in strategy is a new division called Intel Foundry Services that taps into one of the biggest trends in the semiconductor world.

‘Intel is back:’ New CEO’s plan to make chips for other companies excites investors

Intel said it would double down on manufacturing, and invest $20 billion in two new chip factories in Arizona. "

www.cnbc.com

Fortune: Intel CEO says 'big, honkin' fab' planned for Europe will be world's most advanced

The massive chip fabrication project is one of those big plans, and it’s central to Gelsinger’s strategy, known as “IDM 2.0”, a new, improved version of its fully integrated business model that would see Intel not only design and assemble its own chips as before, but serve as a foundry building semiconductors for rivals as well.

Intel's “big, honking chip fab” planned for Europe to be world’s most advanced

Decision over $95 billion project may come this year, but EU focus means Brexit Britain is out of the running.

fortune.com

 

[crazy dave]

I don’t think Intels fabs are for anyone but Intel. And the way they’re acting I don’t think that’s going to change any time soon.

Intel is now a foundry and has apparently won orders already. They’ve stated their new goal is to be a premier fabrication partner and compete with TSMC for their leading edge customers as soon as they get parity and leadership which they put as happening mid-decade - three years.

Now this is all very optimistic on their part and I’d say that it’s more likely that if they do it’s because everyone slips up to different degrees rather than everyone keeps to their roadmaps. I’d also point out that their last attempt at being a foundry was not exactly a roaring success. However this is probably the business they want most from Apple. Yes they’re antagonizing Apple but Apple and Samsung were literally suing each other when Apple was fabbing with Samsung and getting a lot of other components.

 

[pshufd]

nVidia passes Berkshire as the 7th largest US company. I didn't realize that they're three times the market capitalization of Intel.

 

[JMacHack]

Pat Gelsinger said that they are want to fab for other companies.

CNBC: 'Intel is back:' New CEO's plan to make chips for other companies excites investors

Gelsinger on Tuesday showed that he is wasting no time making big changes. The most significant shift in strategy is a new division called Intel Foundry Services that taps into one of the biggest trends in the semiconductor world.

‘Intel is back:’ New CEO’s plan to make chips for other companies excites investors

Intel said it would double down on manufacturing, and invest $20 billion in two new chip factories in Arizona. "

www.cnbc.com

Fortune: Intel CEO says 'big, honkin' fab' planned for Europe will be world's most advanced

The massive chip fabrication project is one of those big plans, and it’s central to Gelsinger’s strategy, known as “IDM 2.0”, a new, improved version of its fully integrated business model that would see Intel not only design and assemble its own chips as before, but serve as a foundry building semiconductors for rivals as well.

Intel's “big, honking chip fab” planned for Europe to be world’s most advanced

Decision over $95 billion project may come this year, but EU focus means Brexit Britain is out of the running.

fortune.com

Intel is now a foundry and has apparently won orders already. They’ve stated their new goal is to be a premier fabrication partner and compete with TSMC for their leading edge customers as soon as they get parity and leadership which they put as happening mid-decade - three years.

Now this is all very optimistic on their part and I’d say that it’s more likely that if they do it’s because everyone slips up to different degrees rather than everyone keeps to their roadmaps. I’d also point out that their last attempt at being a foundry was not exactly a roaring success. However this is probably the business they want most from Apple. Yes they’re antagonizing Apple but Apple and Samsung were literally suing each other when Apple was fabbing with Samsung and getting a lot of other components.

Well I’ll be damned. That’s actually pretty cool if Intel can get their node advantage back.

 

[Rigby]

nVidia passes Berkshire as the 7th largest US company. I didn't realize that they're three times the market capitalization of Intel.

NVDA P/E ratio is now around 95. Hope the investors have a good oxygen supply up there.

 

[pshufd]

NVDA P/E ratio is now around 95. Hope the investors have a good oxygen supply up there.

I'd guess that it's due to crypto. Crypto is insane compared to nVidia.

 

[mr_roboto]

Well I’ll be damned. That’s actually pretty cool if Intel can get their node advantage back.

Like @crazy dave said, this isn't the first time - they tried offering foundry services before. It quickly went back to a non-foundry model for them, as they acquired the only high volume / high profile customer they signed up (Altera).

Intel has a lot of institutional challenges to overcome if they want to become a real foundry.