Intel Alder Lake vs. Apple M1

[huge_apple_fangirl]

Nope, having 8 E-cores is actually better than having 2 or 3 more P-core (which would have taken about the same space) in lots of real world use cases. These aren't so slow as some might think and do add quite a lot to overall performance (when used correctly) and allow the chip to stay cool (and the fans quite) when the PC is under low to medium load (same is true for the M1 family).

Yes, a P-core takes up more space and decreases yields. So E-cores are better from Intel's perspective (especially since they can now claim they have 16 cores). But how is it better for a consumer to have 8 big cores and 8 little cores, vs 16 big cores from AMD? Especially with Zen3D coming out soon.

 

[Kpjoslee]

Yes, a P-core takes up more space and decreases yields. So E-cores are better from Intel's perspective (especially since they can now claim they have 16 cores). But how is it better for a consumer to have 8 big cores and 8 little cores, vs 16 big cores from AMD? Especially with Zen3D coming out soon.

Intel sees putting many e-cores for MT workloads while focusing single threaded performance on big cores is the future. Raptor Lake, which is the successor of Alder lake coming out next year, rumored to have 8+16.

 

[Bug-Creator]

ut how is it better for a consumer to have 8 big cores and 8 little cores, vs 16 big cores from AMD?

Doesn't that 16core AMD cost even more? At that point we could always go one up till we end up with Threadripper vs. Xeon....

Point is space was limited, so was the overall number of transistors and the max. power use (this is a consumer/desktop class CPU after all) at which point it doesn't change yield if you repurpose the space for core 9 and 10 to add 8 slower cores.

AMD "cuts corners" on the 16core by using chiplets and omitting iGPU which may or may not be a reason to prefer Intel for certain applications.

What it really does is offer really different option. Not so long ago you could get an Intel PC, you could get a Mac which really was just a fancy Intel PC or you could go AMD aka Intel just without Intel.
Apple is offering something drasticly different and it does seem that Intel and AMD will go different directions.

 

[Bug-Creator]

Napkin math by CPU designers I’ve read put the intrinsic advantage of ARM v8 vs x86/64 at about 10% performance per watt.

Apple did remove everything 32Bit while I don't see that happening with anything x86 anytime soon.

Plenty transistors that could be used for more useful stuff.

 

[crazy dave]

Apple did remove everything 32Bit while I don't see that happening with anything x86 anytime soon.

Plenty transistors that could be used for more useful stuff.

Sure though I *think* the 10% was referring to just the two 64-bit ISAs. Yes if you include the cruft in x86 it’s probably a bigger percentage of Apple’s advantage, especially for Intel.

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

Intel sees putting many e-cores for MT workloads while focusing single threaded performance on big cores is the future. Raptor Lake, which is the successor of Alder lake coming out next year, rumored to have 8+16.

When will they have more than 8 big cores? I mean Apple does P+E cores in M1 Pro but they still give 10 big cores.
I think when Intel switches to “Intel 4” and has better yields they will also do lots of big cores. 8+8 and 8+16 are stopgaps.

 

[Rigby]

Maybe … of course there will be teething issues and these E cores ain’t exactly little … more like humongous.medium than big.little

As a non-gamer I wish they'd make a version with just 40 E-cores (which should fit into the die size of the high-end desktop Alder Lakes). That would probably be a beast for video encoding and the like.

 

[EastHillWill]

The more interesting (and appropriate) comparisons will be when Apple puts their ‘pro’ chips in desktop machines, and Intel does the same in laptops. Soon we should also see Qualcomm’s newest laptop offerings. (Hoping to see some progress there as well, as the first couple gens have been disappointing.) What a great time to be tech fan!

 

[crazy dave]

As a non-gamer I wish they'd make a version with just 40 E-cores (which should fit into the die size of the high-end desktop Alder Lakes). That would probably be a beast for video encoding and the like.

Xeon Phi 2.0?

 

[grilledcheesesandwich]

Turn the i5 into a computer and you are >1500$.......

We'll find out soon enough once ADL mobile releases. Until then, exclusively focusing on the tail end of the i9 while ignoring the much more competitive i5 & i7 remains misleading.

Also while I’m sure there will be budget laptops the truth is that the premium brands - the space Apple actually competes in - prices stuff pretty similarly to Apple.

Meh, I saw the new XPS 17 going for $1700 a month after release during one of Dell's frequent 'sales'. By comparison, the new MBP 16 commands nearly a 50% price premium.

Personally, I find the relatively slow progress over the years for single-thread speeds somewhat underwhelming. For such tasks, M1 Pro/Max remains only twice as fast as the dinky Haswell in my 2014 MBP 15, in contrast to the tremendous iGPU gains & less significant multithread improvements.

 

[MauiPa]

Thats all fine, but did they even bother checking hashcat scores or boot time?

Boot time? That’s only relevant running windows which has to boot often? Otherwise who cares?

 

[MauiPa]

Fascinating, thanks for the analysis. I still disagree with you conclusion about Apple making the right choice because of power savings.

Since I cancelled my M1 Max, I'll probably be ordering a Dell or Lenovo Alder lake laptop (probably i7 level) in not too long a time. I have to live in a windows world at work...

My condolences

 

[Kpjoslee]

When will they have more than 8 big cores? I mean Apple does P+E cores in M1 Pro but they still give 10 big cores.
I think when Intel switches to “Intel 4” and has better yields they will also do lots of big cores. 8+8 and 8+16 are stopgaps.

Apple's M1 Pro/Max is 8 big cores and 2 little cores.
They will put more big cores on server/workstations but they will likely stay with 8 big cores on consumer line for a while. Rumors say the processor based on Intel 4 will be 8+32 lol, so more likely they will stick with 8 cores for a few years but keep increasing e-cores.

 

[MauiPa]

“Alder Lake performance cores are faster than M1 performance cores... barely (by ~ 10%).” That is not what I read anywhere. 10% would be roughly 178.5 on the geekbench score. What I say was mor like 15-39 points way less than 10%

 

[vir]

14" thermals are lacking.

 

[crazy dave]

We'll find out soon enough once ADL mobile releases. Until then, exclusively focusing on the tail end of the i9 while ignoring the much more competitive i5 & i7 remains misleading.


Meh, I saw the new XPS 17 going for $1700 a month after release during one of Dell's frequent 'sales'. By comparison, the new MBP 16 commands nearly a 50% price premium.

Personally, I find the relatively slow progress over the years for single-thread speeds somewhat underwhelming. For such tasks, M1 Pro/Max remains only twice as fast as the dinky Haswell in my 2014 MBP 15, in contrast to the tremendous iGPU gains & less significant multithread improvements.

It’s going twice as fast for significantly less power and consequently battery life. That’s pretty good. Also unless that XPS was on sale for nearly 40% off, possible I grant you, remember I said premium brands price their wares similarly not that you couldn’t find a cheaper laptop. Those are two different things. Dell XPS with similar performance, screens, and capacity is priced very similarly to Apple’s MBP (deliberately so on both parties not exactly a coincidence) - a touch cheaper but not much unless on deep sale, which, yes, PCs are more apt to be on deeper sales than Macs. That’s true (not counting refurbs).

I mean if we’re counting just perf per $ both the M1 mini and air are pretty damn good on both counts, even with Alder Lake.

Edit:

Dell XPS 17 9710 Touchscreen Laptop, 17 inch UHD+ Display - Intel Core i9-11900H, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB SSD, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 6GB GDDR6, Windows 10 Pro - Platinum Silver

The Dell XPS 17 9710 is engineered with high-performance 11th Generation Intel Core™ processors and powerful NVIDIA graphics to power the most intensive creative pursuits. The XPS 17 delivers powerful performance in an incredibly thin form factor. Optional discrete graphics feature unique dual op...

www.amazon.com

Vs

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$2750 Dell vs $3100 MBP (configured to match: M1Pro with 16 core GPU, 32GB Ram & 1TB SSD)

But for the Mac, it’s got a better specc’ed screen (debatable but overall I’d say the Mac’s screen is better), definitely better battery life and/or on battery performance, better noise, less heat, and just overall cpu performance. GPU performance is probably similar in theory, but almost certainly a win for the Dell in practice.

This doesn’t make the Dell a bad value, far from it. It’s just pointing out that like for like as much as they can be made to be so, these premium brands tend to be priced similarly. (Oh and Amazon is trying to hawk a really subpar XPS for more money than the base Pro goes for but I removed that because I considered that grossly unfair)

 

[MauiPa]

Of course what I wrote is highly provocative. But then again, does adding a bunch of slower cores to help out with multicore performance really quality as innovation? You are treating the symptom, not the cause. While under the hood, the same old problems remain. Even after the massive ore redesign, they still need almost 80 watts of power to be competitive with Zen3 at 25W or M1 at 5W!!!



Ah, come on, don't be silly. Of course they can. It will just be not nearly as impressive or performant as claimed. No wonder Intel has been manipulating benchmarks. They have this impressive front, but the supports are rotten.

On my m1 (not the pro or the max) the efficiency cores do a lot of the workload for things like downloading, copying files even video where the GPU runs around 50%. So yah, there is that. Offloading stuff means faster performance on the performance cores for performance stuff

 

[MauiPa]

The M1 Max in a 14" chassis hits almost 60db and lasts about an hour on battery when stressing it out continuously using less than efficient software (most Mac software). Normal web and productivity battery tests with this configuration also do not show dramatically larger differences to many of the options the competition provides. I understand the 16" fares better thermally, and Apple did not lie that they have taken the crown in performance per watt, but I don't think this is the revolution we've been promised, enough to switch away from a world, nay a universe, of software compatibility. It simply was a needed improvement over their too-thin Intel designs. This move was much more about Apple saving money and exerting control, it's always about money and control, the App Store issue is about money and control, the newest thing with FaceID deliberately breaking after screen repair is about money and control (freedom is definitely not a part of Apple's vernacular).

I patiently await for the M2 to change my mind.

You just made this up? Or some YouTube hack did? Very contrary to everything I’ve seen

 

[vir]

My soul is tired.

 

[januarydrive7]

Please don't make this thread about gaming, the topic has been beaten to death.

.....

posts a video about gaming

 

[vir]

I'm a stupid person.

 

[januarydrive7]

I realize I am a very stupid person, thank you for more hurtful posts, but I wanted to focus on the fan noise and battery life of the video, nothing more.

No one said you were stupid --- although I will say a little bit of self humor might be good for you if forum posts are hurtful.

 

[vir]

That's still personal.

 

[burgerrecords]

In summary (macos/ecosystem aside) if you need a fast computer and don't need it to be portable - x86 still keeping up and is probably more economical.

For portables apple is still miles ahead with their ARM implementation

 

[grilledcheesesandwich]

It’s going twice as fast for significantly less power and consequently battery life. That’s pretty good. Also unless that XPS was on sale for nearly 40% off, possible I grant you, remember I said premium brands price their wares similarly not that you couldn’t find a cheaper laptop. Those are two different things. Dell XPS with similar performance, screens, and capacity is priced very similarly to Apple’s MBP (deliberately so on both parties not exactly a coincidence) - a touch cheaper but not much unless on deep sale, which, yes, PCs are more apt to be on deeper sales than Macs. That’s true (not counting refurbs).

I mean if we’re counting just perf per $ both the M1 mini and air are pretty damn good on both counts, even with Alder Lake.

Yeah, leaving the fans off remains nice, though the new display eats into the CPU battery gains. Having the option to quadruple instead of double single-thread speeds would really impress me, though.

Sure, if you max out the XPS to attempt rivaling Apple on its own high-end turf, the Mac looks more appealing. However, just like with ADL, PC value lies in the base configurations, which Apple largely leaves uncontested here. Dell marked down the base XPS 17 I saw by a reasonable 15-20% to $1700. I imagine Apple has refrained from making a 15" MBA over the years to avoid cannibalizing base 15" MBP sales from many non-power users like myself. I justified the upgrade in 2014 due to the marginal price difference over the base XPS 15, which has only come down in price since.

You could similarly argue the M1 Mac mini & MBA leave the new MBPs behind in perf/$, besides some annoying flaws like external display support.