Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

257Loner

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2022
456
635
The problem is that the workstation market really isn't a 'scale up' market. It is a smaller market. The more expensive the smaller it gets. Once the number of units sold gets 'too small' it isn't going to be economically viable for Apple.

Apple only has about 10% of the general PC market. Mac sell around 24-30M a year. If the super high end workstation market is just 0.8 of the overall market and Apple takes 10% of that... do you even have a whole number left?

If the price of development the chip is too high for the volume you'll sell then generally don't get the chip made.

In the x86 high end workstation market they really are not grounding the prmarily volume source for the package on the workstation market. It is a re-tweaked server package with a different label.

Is Apple going to be able to build every SoC for everybody? No.

That said, the CPU / GPU / NPU core counts of the M 2 Max are tractable to multiply by 3 or 4 without going crazy on costs. They need a far better disagregation strategy than the relatively very primitive and chunky one they used in the M1 generation.

Is that going to cover the extreme upper ends of the workstation market? No. Do they need to cover those? Not really ( again the more extreme they go the smaller the market gets and there are no other systems to put these increasing niche SoCs into to generate more volume. )
I completely agree. Even if Apple could produce an SoC suitable for a Mac Pro that was appropriately competitive in the workstation market, Apple could still fail to make a profit. They might as well make the Mac Studio and iMac Pro their top-of-the-line models and leave it at that.
 

PauloSera

Suspended
Oct 12, 2022
908
1,393
The longer Apple takes with this product, the more of this BS we're going to have to read.

Apple is going to release a Mac Pro that competes with top end Intel machines, but not the TOP Intel machine. Which doesn't matter, since there are so few customers for it to begin with.
 

PauloSera

Suspended
Oct 12, 2022
908
1,393
I completely agree. Even if Apple could produce an SoC suitable for a Mac Pro that was appropriately competitive in the workstation market, Apple could still fail to make a profit. They might as well make the Mac Studio and iMac Pro their top-of-the-line models and leave it at that.
The Mac Studio already outperforms the previous Mac Pro. The next one will likely be 2x the current one. There are loads of former Mac Pro customers for whom this performance is more than enough.

I personally do not think Apple should bother with the handful of people who only want the highest performance physically possible today (wattage be damned).
 

257Loner

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2022
456
635
The Mac Studio already outperforms the previous Mac Pro. The next one will likely be 2x the current one. There are loads of former Mac Pro customers for whom this performance is more than enough.

I personally do not think Apple should bother with the handful of people who only want the highest performance physically possible today (wattage be damned).
If the M1 Ultra is two Max chips fused together, Apple could fuse 4 Max chips together, stick the 4× chip in the next Mac Studio, paint it black, and call it the new Mac Pro.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PauloSera

PineappleCake

Suspended
Feb 18, 2023
96
252
stick the 4× chip in the next Mac Studio, paint it black, and call it the new Mac Pro.
Trash can back from the grave. If you gonna do ARM, do a proper workstation ARM SoC.

ie lots of cores like 32 cores and lots of ram that is >256GB and slots.
 

PineappleCake

Suspended
Feb 18, 2023
96
252
A lot of us are suspicious of the 6,1 Mac Pro because of those proprietary GPUs (what happens when they fail), so more proprietary stuff doesn't look good.

On the 7,1 front or even the old 5,1 those are quite easy to support ourselves if we need to.
I think with the 6,1 there was no PCIe slots for GPUs that was the ultimate failure for DIY. If these Apple GPU blades are PCIe that is standard interface, should be fine.

the 6,1 should have been called a Mac Pro. Its like an Anti-hero
 

prefuse07

Suspended
Jan 27, 2020
895
1,073
San Francisco, CA
I think with the 6,1 there was no PCIe slots for GPUs that was the ultimate failure for DIY. If these Apple GPU blades are PCIe that is standard interface, should be fine.

the 6,1 should have been called a Mac Pro. Its like an Anti-hero

Yeah, they should have called it something else right then and there, however, then we might have never gotten the 7,1, so out of that failure, fortunately, we got something positive...
 

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
1,654
The Mac Studio already outperforms the previous Mac Pro. The next one will likely be 2x the current one. There are loads of former Mac Pro customers for whom this performance is more than enough.

I personally do not think Apple should bother with the handful of people who only want the highest performance physically possible today (wattage be damned).

Huh?

Doesn’t reflect metal benchmarks of machines just with off the shelf RX6900XT from what I remember seeing… not even a 28 core machine, just a mid spec model.

Even 5,1 with newer GPU competitive.
 

ricketysquire

macrumors regular
Oct 24, 2020
178
739
I'm 99% sure they are just going to make an AS Mac Pro with no expandability or upgradability outside of USB 4/Thunderbolt ports. They'll make some sort of argument about how the performance is better than Intel by huge margins and that customers preferences have changed, etc. The real reason being the tighter things are integrated the larger they can improve their margins. That's what it always comes down to. Preventing repairs and upgradability help Apple upsell more expensive models and warranty services.

Apple and other companies used to be into delighting consumers, now that big tech has gained such a foothold in our lives they can create more and more waste. Like devices with glued on non-replaceable batteries or laptops with 8 gb of non upgradable ram, and they can say how "Green" they are.

The only way to stop this is more competition in the space or enough users leaving the platform to cause them to re-think their decisions. I think as consumer and users, we should want companies to falter and fail with products more often, that prevents ego driven decisions and allows companies to remain more humble.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mikas

Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
3,414
8,106
I get confused when I read many similar comments.

Professional?

Ok, I use a wired keyboard and mouse because I'm lazy.

So do I, and there's ports to connect it to

I have two hard drives, a SSD, and I plan to add another SSD.

It's hard to imagine connecting four hard drives, a DVD drive, a keyboard, and a mouse to Mac studio. It won't be an esthetically pleasing and organized desktop.
You got four thunderbolt ports and two USB-A Type 3s on the back, and two more thunderbolt ports on the front. I'm sure you can make it work. If not, I can help. I work IT for a data center and have to setup crazier setups than yours. :)

And hey Satechi makes an SSD enclosure you can put under your Mac Studio, so that's one SSD taken care of.

I like to put everything inside the case of a computer because electronic devices shouldn't be treated a saucer for my cup.

...why are you treating electronic devices as a drink coaster?

You're supposed to put the external drives behind the computer lmao

Size?

I have a 55-inch monitor on my desk, so I don't worry about the size of my computer. It will always be much smaller than my monitor, and I can accept it.

Of course, I also have an old server with HP-UX (50 kg) on a window sill, which is a much heavier computer than Mac Pro.

...why do you have a server on a window sill?

Why do some users think that modern computers should be a size of a book?

Because a lot of us are getting smaller and smaller apartments and don't have as much space on our desks? I barely got enough space on mine as is with my work computer, my Nintendo Switch and PS5, and my full gaming PC to boot, which is why I used a Mac Mini for a while so my main computer didn't take up much space.

Some computers should have bigger cases if we don't want to have bunch of cables on our desks. Please, correct me if you know a better solution.

You could just mount the Mac Studio under the desk. Several people have made mounts for the Studio.

apple-mac-studio-mount---8h-x-406w-x-813d---white.jpg


I have two older Macs: Mac mini and iMac. It's difficult when you have to replace something in them. They are fragile, but they can be fixed in many situations. I can't say it about M1/M2 Macs.

Apple has a self service program for the Apple Silicon Macs where you can order the tools and parts to repair it if something breaks, as well as schematics and manuals how.


I want to remind you that M1 Macs from 2020 are officially unfixable in 2025.

The unfixable part of M1 Macs you're referring to is the covert channel in the M1 chip and only the vanilla M1 chip, which is a security vulnerability that got fixed in future chips like the M1 Pro and M2. Said vulnerability is mostly harmless as there's not really anything an attacker can do with it.
 

PauloSera

Suspended
Oct 12, 2022
908
1,393
Huh?

Doesn’t reflect metal benchmarks of machines just with off the shelf RX6900XT from what I remember seeing… not even a 28 core machine, just a mid spec model.

Even 5,1 with newer GPU competitive.
So what? That's a GPU that costs almost as much as the whole machine.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: prefuse07

PauloSera

Suspended
Oct 12, 2022
908
1,393
If the M1 Ultra is two Max chips fused together, Apple could fuse 4 Max chips together, stick the 4× chip in the next Mac Studio, paint it black, and call it the new Mac Pro.
That's very likely what they are going to do, but with a bigger case for better thermals and M2 or M3 architecture.

The performance of a 4X M1 Max would service at least 80% of former Mac Pro customers. 4X M3 Max? Even more.

People here seem to forget that the Mac Pro was a $2500 machine to a $50k machine. Most of the people who bought the Mac Pro were not buying $50k configs. Apple has already addressed at least the first 50% of those buyers with the Mac Studio. A 4X Max chip will take care of most of the rest, with the exception of a few % at the very top who bought maxed out configs. But here's the thing about those people: they are not loyal Mac customers. Those people will (and already have) switched to Windows and purchased newer hardware, because its available. Those people are after hardware at any cost, because they count compile times in terms of dollars. Someone else is paying the electric bill. Those are the people who buy a $3000 graphics card, and then replace with a slightly better $3000 card 6 months later. This is their story, but its not the whole story of the Mac Pro. I'm happier to see Apple diversify here, and not worry about this user at all.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: prefuse07

steve123

macrumors 65816
Aug 26, 2007
1,155
719
The customer Apple tunes into when it comes to the Mac Pro is Pixar. So ask yourself, what does Pixar want to see in the AS Mac Pro. Whatever they envision is what will guide the design of the new MP.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
... reflect metal benchmarks of machines just with off the shelf RX6900XT from what I remember seeing ...
So what? That's a GPU that costs almost as much as the whole machine.

I read it that way at first also, but it isn't that.

The Apple MPX W6900X costs that much. The RX6900XT is really a Windows card that just happens to work in the Mac Pro because the W6900X exists. A large chunk of this is the "I don't want to pay for drivers" effect crowd. The point there is a Ponzi scheme where other people pay for the drivers that they want to use indirectly. That scheme is going to have far more problems on Apple Silicon systems.

It is very unlikely that Apple sat down and did the Mac Pro 2019 with the primary intent of servicing a market where the users would not pay them for doing the GPU driver work necessary to bring that card to macOS. There is a substantial number of folks who simply just want to opportunistically use the Mac Pro 'container' for their own intents with almost complete disregard for Apple's objectives. The primary interest there is in the maximum number of commodity parts. The wider variety of commodity parts can stuff into the box the better. It is a different objective than Apple holistic system building approach.


Toward the end of the Intel era, Apple had merged there EFI/UEFI usage enough close so that it got easier to toss certain subsets of Windows GPU cards into Macs. Apple has basically walked away from that. UEFI is effectively gone for macOS on Apple Silicon. ( Those 'off the shelf' Windows GPU aren't going to be a 'boot' or 'recovery' screen GPUs. )

That merging with UEFI was not "jump out of bed , super excited" path for Apple. It mainly happened because Intel CPU needed it more as time went on. Apple 'had to' because Intel wanted it. Apple's SoC start the boot phase with iBoot because it isn't Intel's 'call' on how the boot phase goes anymore. The larger ecosystem Apple is tapping into is iPhone, not a PC market that is trying to cling to 80's BIOS for as long as possible.


Hence, in part why some folks are cheerleading keeping the Intel option. A subset of the crowd would cheer for getting rid of the T2 also. ( bring back more 5,1 firmware hacking to subvert Apple support policies at the lowest price point paid as possible). Neither one of those is likely to happen .
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
If the M1 Ultra is two Max chips fused together, Apple could fuse 4 Max chips together, stick the 4× chip in the next Mac Studio, paint it black, and call it the new Mac Pro.

Four Max chips wouldn't fit in the Mac Studio chassis. Studio Chassis has issues just covering the 2x (Ultra).

"Fusing" 4 Max chips is highly dubious. The could fuse some somewhat similar, but different 'sliced' dies into what would be the same approximate core counts... but four laptop optimized, very chunky chiplets is probably would create as many problems as it tried to solve.

And if 'fusing' four chips it really would be only incrementally more effort to fuse 1 more that got them decent PCI-e lane provisioning suitable for the Mac Pro chassis. The monolithic focused laptop chips don't do that at all ( 4 * 4 * 1x PCI-e v4 is really nothing that a Mac Pro should be relying on for primary PCI-e backhaul. That aggregate bandwidth is outclassed by mundane, modern desktop SoC from other vendors ( x20 PCi-e v4/5). )


Apple needs another highly functionally equivalent Studio in the line up, like they need another hole in the head( they don't.). It makes zero sense. Painting it a different color isn't going to change anything.

There are already 50+ PCI-e cards that work with Apple Silicon and macOS. It would be a complete bozo move for Apple not to make at least one Mac that allow for slots to be hosted internally. They have already done almost of the software 'half' of that solution..... and then walk away leaving it hanging when it could be a profitable business with relatively modest amount of work? Probably not.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
That's very likely what they are going to do, but with a bigger case for better thermals and M2 or M3 architecture.

The performance of a 4X M1 Max would service at least 80% of former Mac Pro customers. 4X M3 Max? Even more.

A bigger case purely just for thermals would a huge mistake. And trying to 'hammer' laptop monothoic dies into playing a role as 4x super chunky chiplets would be an even bigger one.

Apple can simply take the baseline subcomponents of the "Max die" and disaggregate them just slightly into better building blocks to scale past two 'chiplets' without a ton of waste. For example, the Max die has 4 Thunderbolt (TB) controllers. What in the world would anyone rationally do with a mega package that had 16 TB controllers on it. Almost nobody sane needs 16 TB controllers. Somewhere past 4...6 ports probably using the wrong tool for the wrong job. ( Note: even the Mac Studio stops at 6 ... not 7-8. ) . Similar need 4 Secure elements for a single system; why? More than one secure boot drive; why?

Even for the MBP 14"/16" ... if get to the point selling 1+ M of those systems. The UltraFusion connect on those does. Utterly and completely zero value provided to those end users. So a complete waste of wafer space. It is a relatively small space but multiple that by 1M and those are a million 'bridges to nowhere'. As wafers get more and more expensive that is a larger and larger amount of money just throwing down the toilet.


People here seem to forget that the Mac Pro was a $2500 machine to a $50k machine. Most of the people who bought the Mac Pro were not buying $50k configs. Apple has already addressed at least the first 50% of those buyers with the Mac Studio.

It is less than 50% . There is problem with globbing the GPU cores at a much higher multiplier ratio to CPU cores. There are some Mac Pro users who want 20 cores , but don't want a maximal GPU. I know much of these threads spin round and round how Mac Pro will implode if doesn't match a two 4090/7900XTX GPU right now, so there is a frantic chase for maximum GPUs and most expensive machine.

But there are down market (from the hyper expensive far end) system Apple is missing also. There isn't a $2,500 system anymore. Hasn't been for almost a decade. 3-4 PCi-e card needs and a Mac Studio + Sonnet xMac Studio enclosure is an awkward fit. And not all about core counts. Apple's one , and only one, internal drive design is dubious for workloads with > 8TB capacity footprints. And 'do everything SSD drive' is dubious also ( no good reason why the OS/Apps SSD has to be the same drive as a very high throughput, scratch drive for interim data. ) . Finally some folks are 'OK' with 'Max sized' GPU core count but just want more CPU cores ( a different ratio). [ This last one is even true for the "2x" Ultra in the Mac Studio. It is limping along with a non optimal market match 'Ultra' SoC line up also which is inhibiting sales. ]


I agree that super fringe group at the top of the MP 2019 configuration ( upper 5%) is actually relatively much smaller than many of the folks that group think it is. The Intel versions of the Mac Pro never did support the development of those features in and over themselves. ( it is mainly subsized indirectly from the Intel server package sales). But it was also in part subsidized by the low-midrange Mac Pro sales also. If both of those go ( drop Intel server sales coupling (Apple doesn't do that at all) and the low-midrange goes off to M-series ... then don't really have a viable product platform anymore).

A huge problem with "well Apple can just keep an Intel Mac Pro at the fringe top of the line up" is based on a notion that Apple wouldn't try to compete with it with another Mac. Trying to pigeon hole the M-seires Mac Pro into a Mac Studio container is just trying to leave space by making the M-series Mac Pro worse than it could be. That is just not going to help either product.

What Apple can do is just keep selling the MP 2019 that they have along side for a while (perhaps with some price cuts ... the 2019 pricing at the 20+ core count level is pragmatically delusional at this point. )
 

PauloSera

Suspended
Oct 12, 2022
908
1,393
It is less than 50% .
Absolutely not a chance. You have a very misguided perception of the popularity of high end MacPro systems. The rest of your posts confirm this.

A huge problem with "well Apple can just keep an Intel Mac Pro at the fringe top of the line up" is based on a notion that Apple wouldn't try to compete with it with another Mac. Trying to pigeon hole the M-seires Mac Pro into a Mac Studio container is just trying to leave space by making the M-series Mac Pro worse than it could be. That is just not going to help either product.

Apple absolutely is going to release a product to compete with it on CPU and GPU performance, without any of the expandability.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: prefuse07

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
No, its not, and I heard the same nonsense about the Ultra chip.

Physically it is. There is only one edge the 2x set up has to deal with. That one edge doesn't scale to four dies.
The memory layout also is a substantial impediment. The die is just shaped 'wrong' to scale up past two. The problem is the Max die is highly optimized to just get to 2 while simultaneously squeezing onto a narrow laptop logic board and that substantially impedes going further

You could get a CPU only set up to mimic something similar to what AMD does with their chiplets , but the GPU cores are far more NUMA sensitivity issues when coupled to high screen refresh rates. [ AMD just does equally 'worse' NUMA for all the cores. That works for CPUs. It doesn't work so well for GPUs... e.g., AMD's completely reversed orientation with the GPU chiplets they are using for high end mainstream graphics. AMD has a single edge fused CDNA solution but there are no display controllers on that solution on purpose. (i.e., it isn't a single user , GUI focused GPU. ) ]

In short, I am not talking about the what you might have heard about the Ultra chip at all.

Dogmatically clinging to the laptop optimized dies as super chunky chiplets reeks of a Rube Goldberg attempt to save money by driving up usage of the die because can't afford to do it right (e.g, can't get the green light to get a die that is a far better match to the problem because the volume is judged to be too small ). The problem there is that Apple's expenses may have been contained but the end user cost skyrockets. If it is too expensive and 'practically nobody' buys it , then some technically working solution is not of much productive use.

Pragmatically they need at least to UltraFusion connector edges to make something decent work. And once you do that it will decline as a monotholithic , narrow laptop logicboard solution. Therefore, they need another die. That doesn't mean throwing the P or E core cluster designs out the window, LPDDR5 controllers out the window. , unified memory out the window , integrated TB controllers out windows. It just needs a better disaggregation.

It just means at least one more die in the line up that is more desktop focused die where routinely use multiple chip/die (primarily chiplet focused ) solutions. This wouldn't be a "mac pro only" usage. The Mac Studio has market targeting problems too. If Apple brought back an iMac Pro; same thing.

With better disaggration they could have 3 die solutions at better price points for some users.




P.S. to tie it back a little to the thread's topic area. Intel's four chunky chiplet solution for 3400 isn't winning any prizes for affordable to make , healthy margin returns producing sales either. But at least they were designed to fit well together in dense packed orientation. The Max is not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: singhs.apps

CapableLaw8039

Suspended
Feb 23, 2023
10
1
The Mac Pro family with the 2013 model and follow up 2019 model are excellent examples.
They just rebranded it to iMac Pro & Mac Studio.

I think Apple will put a M2 Ultra & 2x M2 Ultra with disabled features to allow for PCIe slots, RAM DIMMs and possible storage expansion.

Price point though may not be what everyone wants it to be.
 
Last edited:

PauloSera

Suspended
Oct 12, 2022
908
1,393
The customer Apple tunes into when it comes to the Mac Pro is Pixar. So ask yourself, what does Pixar want to see in the AS Mac Pro. Whatever they envision is what will guide the design of the new MP.
Pixar will use whatever is available, just like they always have. Right now they are probably using iMacs or maybe a newer Mac Studio for some jobs, old Mac Pros for others, and a bunch of Windows machines with Intel and ridiculously overpriced GPUs for some things.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: prefuse07

prefuse07

Suspended
Jan 27, 2020
895
1,073
San Francisco, CA
Pixar will use whatever is available, just like they always have. Right now they are probably using iMacs or maybe a newer Mac Studio for some jobs, old Mac Pros for others, and a bunch of Windows machines with Intel and ridiculously overpriced GPUs for some things.
Please stop posting your misguided delusions, and you really should return to the Mac Studio forum:

Pixar in 2014


Pixar, Adobe, OTOY, Blackmagic Design, Autodesk, Maxon, Avid, Unity, Red Digital Cinema, Foundry, Universal Audio, Cine Tracer, Pixelmator, Serif, SideFX and Epic Games in 2019

Guido Quaroni said:
Pixar
“We are thrilled to announce full Metal support in Hydra in an upcoming release of USD toward the end of the year. Together with this new release, the new Mac Pro will dramatically accelerate the most demanding 3D graphics workflows thanks to an excellent combination of memory, bandwidth and computational performance. This new machine clearly shows Apple is delivering on the needs of professionals at high-end production facilities like Pixar.”
— Guido Quaroni, vice president of Software Research and Development, Pixar

What you don't seem to understand is that the majority of these studios rely on GPU power, and the Mac Studio simply cannot deliver that, no matter how much you want to fluff it up. AS just isn't up to the task in this current moment in time. The other part of this is that these studios are not beholden to price, as you are. So they have no issue spending $50k on one single computer, since their projects generate Millions in return.

Lastly, the Mac Studio is not, nor was it ever intended to be a machine for PROFESSIONALS. You really think these professional studios would just throw away their $50k Mac Pros because the Mac Studio came out?! :rolleyes: give me a break.

Skywalker Sound (sound efx division of Lucasfilm)

Skywalker Sound said:
Skywalker Sound uses 130 Mac Pro racks

Yes, they also use other Macs, but the bulk of their production is running on Mac Pros (including older models as seen in the images).
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: PauloSera

PauloSera

Suspended
Oct 12, 2022
908
1,393
Please stop posting your misguided delusions, and you really should return to the Mac Studio forum:

Pixar in 2014


Pixar, Adobe, OTOY, Blackmagic Design, Autodesk, Maxon, Avid, Unity, Red Digital Cinema, Foundry, Universal Audio, Cine Tracer, Pixelmator, Serif, SideFX and Epic Games in 2019



What you don't seem to understand is that the majority of these studios rely on GPU power, and the Mac Studio simply cannot deliver that, no matter how much you want to fluff it up. AS just isn't up to the task in this current moment in time. The other part of this is that these studios are not beholden to price, as you are. So they have no issue spending $50k on one single computer, since their projects generate Millions in return.

Lastly, the Mac Studio is not, nor was it ever intended to be a machine for PROFESSIONALS. You really think these professional studios would just throw away their $50k Mac Pros because the Mac Studio came out?! :rolleyes: give me a break.

Skywalker Sound (sound efx division of Lucasfilm)



Yes, they also use other Macs, but the bulk of their production is running on Mac Pros (including older models as seen in the images).
This drivel is utter delusion. Take a walk around Pixar and see how many dated machines they use all day.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,478
3,173
Stargate Command
The customer Apple tunes into when it comes to the Mac Pro is Pixar. So ask yourself, what does Pixar want to see in the AS Mac Pro. Whatever they envision is what will guide the design of the new MP.

I envision a M3 Extreme Mac Pro Cube on every desk & a backend of thousands of rackmounted ComputeModules grinding out queued render jobs...
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.